a clockwork orange

lilo moo

i just saw this movie and i couldn't believe how much i enjoyed it! because it had been banned in ireland, i had the preconcieved notion of it being nothing more than senseless, graphic violence and disturbing rape scenes. although there were some less than pleasant scenes, on the whole i thought it was really very good, and in parts, funny as hell. the cinematography was great, the acting was superb, the story was one of a kind (can't wait to read the book), stanley kubrick was a genius. i guess i just have one question for anyone who's seen it;

even though he did some pretty nasty things... did anyone really hate alex?

(or, like me, could you not help liking him anyway and feel sorry for him when things didn't go so well for our humble narrator?)

Stark

Hated the little ****. He deserved what he got.

Karl Hungus

Aye, it is a masterpeice. The whole character arc of Alex is quite fantastic, and by the end, I really felt sorry for him altogether, so I can't say I hated him at all.

Space Coyote

Great film. I didn't see it til last year I think, and I was very surprised how good it actually was. McDowell was fantastic. I too felt sorry for Alex at the end. Poor crazy loon.

mycroft

or, like me, could you not help liking him anyway and feel sorry for him when things didn't go so well for our humble narrator

Thats the beauty of the film, your empathy and concern are with this amoral little **** who doesn't deserve it. You're made to loath and despise all those who brutalise and extract their revenge on him, witness his parents and the lodger's disgust at Alex's treatment, the police are his thug mates, and the professor using his music againist him (pointless film fact the professor's thug is David Prowse aka Darth Vader and the scene which Alex attempts suicide and jumps out the window was achieved by chucking a camera out the window (took three takes before one didn't break))

The book, actually has a final chapter which sort of turns Alex's violence into a cycle, and I think gives better closure, but isn't very cinematic, so i can see how it was dropped.

Finally, A Clockwork Orange was never actually banned, Kubrick forced the studio to withdraw it from British cinemas after one high profile assault during which a gang of youths sang "singing in the rain", it's a measure of Kubrick's regard in the industry that through sheer force of will he kept the film banned in these Isles in his life time. Whether you agree with his decision or not, it's kind of loathsome how quickly the film was re released after his death, despite his wishes.

gobby

I absolutly loved this film. I remember hearing about it and how it had been banned, or as mycroft has pointed out, withdrawn (nice bit of info bout the film btw). I really wanted to see it and when I did, boy! what a fantastic suprise! Its a classic imo. I love it.

smoke.me.a.kipper

absolutly brilliant, and tbh i did feel sorry for alex in the end, even if he was a complete ****.

Fysh

Regarding the last part of the book, in which Alex has matured and his violent behaviour is turned into a cycle, I've heard tell (although have no evidence for this) of an american release which added an extra sequence to the movie in order to remain more true to the book. Having not seen it, I have no idea as to its quality (or whether it even exists), but having read the book first I do remember being annoyed at Kubrick for choosing a more "shocking" ending over the original book's conclusion (which, in its own way, is more shocking -

Alex decides that he wants to have a child, and even though he realises that his kid will probably turn into a vicious, near-psychotic little thug, decides to go for it anyway, proving that he is in some ways as amoral as the teenage vandal we saw at the beginning of the story

).

mycroft

I've heard tell (although have no evidence for this) of an american release which added an extra sequence to the movie in order to remain more true to the book

Absolutely false. Kubrick was near psychotic about his films, to the point he expressed interest and concern about which cinema's would show his film. He was hell to work with.

Theres no way in hell he'd have allowed a studio to change his film, he was one of the few directors given final cut on his films and wouldn't have it any other way. That and seeing how a Clockwork Orange came straight after 2001 (which was his most sucessful film to date) and it was the start of the 70s the decade in which directors ruled, theres no chance of that happening

Spacedog

I heard that the version of the book released in America had the last chapter censored from it. this being the version that Kubrick read and made into the movie. But the ending is deadly all the same, I likes Kubricks twist on the style and language of the book. (he added a few words to the clock-orange-ish language)

"yazzic my vonny yarbloccos you big groodied devotchka!"

...and so forth.

Elmo

I did try to watch this when it was on TG4 a while back.

I just think Krubic is Weird.

The opening scenes are fairly disturbing.

I heard the book is far better.

Gaijin

Am I the only one that didn't feel sorry for the little s####. He deserved everything he got and more!!

mycroft

I heard that the version of the book released in America had the last chapter censored from it.

What? why? Where on earth did you here that? What possible reason would the final chapter be censored for?

No no no no no no no no. Burgess wrote the book after he was beaten up by two US airmen in the UK during WW2. Kubrick was already solidly based in the UK by the time he started Clockwork. He was also anal retentive about the research and planning of his films. The decision to remove the final chapter was purely an artistic one.

Beruthiel

a classic movie if ever there was one
I absolutely loved the dialogue

sceptre

mycroft wrote:

What? why? Where on earth did you here that? What possible reason would the final chapter be censored for?

The final chapter was omitted from the first American release by the publisher, WW Norton. Burgess needed the money so reluctantly agreed to it. Burgess' version of the events was that Eric Swenson, VP at Norton, said the ending was a copout and wouldn't publish the book with it, Swenson's version was that it was merely a suggestion that Burgess agreed with and that the 21st chapter was only in there because the UK publisher wanted it (from a structural point of view this doesn't make much sense, see below). If you believe the Burgess version of events, he wanted the book to be a genuine (short) novel with some redemption at the end, Swenson wanted the character grounded in fable wth the tough tradition of American fiction. Jury's still out on which was better. The 21st chapter didn't appear in American editions until 1988. Burgess (as mentioned in his second autobiography (he uses the word "lopping")) never liked the omission of the last chapter from either the book or the movie (or in the case of the former, he inclusion of the Nadsat glossary in the US edition) - he believed it destroyed the moral integrity of the story, as well as the rhythm of the book - he deliberately divided it into three sections of seven chapters each and 21 is of course the old age of majority (which is presumably deliberate, despite the final chapter being essentially an epilogue of a few years later).

Find any pre-1988 US edition of the book. You'll find only 20 chapters.

I've read a few versions of why the last chapter was left out by Kubrick and while I thought the book was good (Burgess wrote better books than this one) and the movie was good but not spectacular (Kubrick directed better movies than this one), I wasn't that interested enough to check which one was correct. However, it's entirely possible that Kubrick read the US version of the book, despite his living in England at the time. He got the book from Terry Southern (on the instruction of Si Litvinoff, who later produced the movie - Southern read it first and recommended it to Litinoff as a possible movie) about 1963 while Southern was writing the screenplay for Dr Strangelove, which was a far better movie IMHO. Given that Southern was usually living in the US, it's entirely possible that he gave him the US version. Whether Kubrick was aware of the final chapter or ever read it (or read it and elected to dump it), obviously the movie was made without it and results in the book and movie being two different beasts, each with a different final urge.

mycroft

However, it's entirely possible that Kubrick read the US version of the book, despite his living in England at the time.

That story is utterly fascinating. It's weird thinking about an author loosing control over their book, yet it's thought of as commonplace with films.

My point is, Kubrick's research and development of projects is legendary. There was a brillant article in the Guardian weekender magazine about the first journalist to be given access to the Kubrick archives and estate. Rooms filled with books on Napoleon for a film he never made, (cover page of the magazine features, the journalist holded the severed head of the vitenamise sniper from the end of Full Metal Jacket), anyway there's no way Kubrick was not aware of the final chapter of Clockwork Orange, he had to. Seeing as the entire chapter is just internal monologue and features new characters, it's logical to assume the Kubrick rejected the final chapter of the book in favour of his more nilihistic ending.

Out of curiousity Sceptre, what are your favourite Kubrick and Burgess works?