Viera NOT gone?

eirebhoy

The Muppet wrote:

Viera is the most important player in the Arsenal setup just like Keane is at Utd and Gerrard at Liverpool. Assuming he goes if they will miss him badly. To say Arsenal are just as good without him does his talent a disservice, of course they will miss him.

As kaids said, Campbell is certainly more important than Vieira and with Campbell out for 6 weeks I think it will give people a false impression of Vieira's importance if he does leave. Keane is more important to United than Vieira is to Arsenal. I'm not saying that Keane is a better player but Arsenal can cope a lot better without Vieira. I'm disappointed that Campbell is out for the start of the season as we could have seen how they get on without him all season.

gandalf

I am sorry to see Vieira go. £23/€35 Million is not enough for him. However as I have said before he has given the club 8 great years and they are making a serious profit on his original cost. My biggest fear is about Wenger, Dein better stuff some of the surplus from Vieira's sale down Arsenes trousers and get him signed for at least another 3-4 years!!

jesus_thats_gre

gandalf wrote:

I am sorry to see Vieira go. £23/€35 Million is not enough for him. However as I have said before he has given the club 8 great years and they are making a serious profit on his original cost. My biggest fear is about Wenger, Dein better stuff some of the surplus from Vieira's sale down Arsenes trousers and get him signed for at least another 3-4 years!!

Still talk of Henry, Campbel and Wenger going to real next summer Hate that!

gandalf

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Still talk of Henry, Campbel and Wenger going to real next summer Hate that!

Still gives them a season to kicks Uniteds and Sir Alco's ass

mr_angry

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Still talk of Henry, Campbel and Wenger going to real next summer Hate that!

Sure Real may as well just move to North London.

Jivin Turkey

It annoys me to see all these stats being knocked around as "proof". People go on like Campbell was the most important player for Arsenal because they only lost X amount of matches without him. In all honesty, this is total garbage. There are millions of other factors that take place. Who else were Arsenal missing as well as Campbell at that time? Who else did they play? Were Vieira or Henry missing?

The 2 most influential players for Arsenal are Henry and Vieira, NO DOUBT. These are the roots of the team. Every good thing you think about Arsenal stems from them. If Arsenal do end up loosing Vieira it will be a great loss. But I wouldnt back against Wenger to have already signed a (better) replacment.

The Muppet

Jivin Turkey wrote:

It annoys me to see all these stats being knocked around as "proof". People go on like Campbell was the most important player for Arsenal because they only lost X amount of matches without him. In all honesty, this is total garbage. There are millions of other factors that take place. Who else were Arsenal missing as well as Campbell at that time? Who else did they play? Were Vieira or Henry missing?

The 2 most influential players for Arsenal are Henry and Vieira, NO DOUBT. These are the roots of the team. Every good thing you think about Arsenal stems from them. If Arsenal do end up loosing Vieira it will be a great loss. .

Very true , They seeem to forget the season before last when Arsenal collapsed when Viera missed games near the end of the season.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

But I wouldnt back against Wenger to have already signed a (better) replacment.

There are not too many around that have proved theselves to be better than Viera in his position. If I were a Gooner I would also be concerned at the message this sends the like of Henry Pires Campbell and Wenger himself.


Someone said earlier that United had sold established players and still maintained their performances on the pitch but United didn't sell their most influential player Roy Keane because they knew how difficult he would be to replace they resisted big money attemptsl to get him. When they did sell Inch Hughes etc it was the clubs decison to move them on not the players with the exception of Kanchelskis so it didn,t have the same effect on the rest of the players as Paddys leaving will have on Arsenal..

midget lord

Real Madrid will spend their money on the wrong player if they buy Arsenal captain Patrick Vieira, according to Bernabeu great Michel.

Reports in Spain claim that Madrid have brokered a £23m deal with Arsenal for the French midfielder.

But Michel, who helped run the Madrid midfield in some of their championship-winning teams in the 1980s, says the club should instead acquire rising Spanish star Xabi Alonso of Real Sociedad.

More here

Good old Michel doenst seen to think he is too great.

Bannor

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Woop to the bannor...

Wasn't having a go at The Muppet. I just find such comments about "if X is as good as Y then why didn't they sign them and save themselves Z million" a bit naive.

Transfers in the real world aren't like playing Championship Manager, Real have enquired about several players Xabi Alonso (Real Sociedad - they had agreed a fee of €20M for the player and when they went to close the deal the asking price was raised to €25M, Perez didn't like being messed around so he decided to look elsewhere instead), Emerson (Roma - everything was agreed and Real would have signed him but the player wanted to follow Capello to Juventus), Maniche (Porto - Perez decided not to deal with them after getting the run around with the Carvalho transfer), Steven Gerrard (Real and Barcelona both contacted SFX to express their interest in signing the player during the Gerrard is going to Chelsea saga. Fortunately for Gerrard he doesn't want to leave England).

Vieira was just a name on a list and had the other transfer deals progressed then we wouldn't be posting in this thread.

The Muppet

Bannor wrote:

Wasn't having a go at The Muppet. I just find such comments about "if X is as good as Y then why didn't they sign them and save themselves Z million" a bit naive.
................Maniche (Porto - Perez decided not to deal with them after getting the run around with the Carvalho transfer), .

So I'm a naive muppet now am I?


I find it hard to believe that Real would rather spend £17 million pounds more on Viera rather than deal with Porto for Maniche if they think Maniche is of equivalent standard to Viera.. It doesn,t sound like good business to me and as you say this is real life not championship manager so its real money we're talking about.

GuanYin

The Muppet wrote:

So I'm a naive muppet now am I?

He did say only a "bit naive"

Seriously though, I think I'd agree that there is more than a slight gap in quality and achievment between the players on that list.

I can imagine them all being potential targets for Real, but if they are really after "the best" I doubt viera would be that far down the order of enquiry.

Bannor

There wasn't a pecking order as such.

Alonso was their primary target, the club agreed a fee of €20M with Real Sociedad back in March/April. They signed a contract which meant that Sociedad couldn't open negotiations with another club regarding the player until after August - this was Perez being paranoid about Chelsea stealing the player from them. In May/June (memory is a bit foggy about the exact date but it should be in the transfer rumour thread) Real arranged a meeting to close the deal and discovered that the Sociedad president had hiked up the price to €25M. He gave the reason as a London club making an enquiry, Perez assumed it was Chelsea but it turned out to be Spurs. Perez refused to pay the extra €5M for the player safe in the knowledge that Sociedad couldn't sell him to another club before the transfer window ends without Madrids's consent or them withdrawing from the contract.

At the time Euro 2004 was under way and Zidane was having friendly chats with Vieira, Lampard and Terry were best pals with Gerrard and Rooney. Real opened negotiations with Roma for Emerson, Camacho had been appointed manager of Real and he suggested Maniche (having just come from Benfica he knew the player well). Interestingly throughout the Steven Gerrard saga only one club made an official enquiry to Liverpool about the player - Arsenal (so maybe they were already looking for a replacement). Chelsea, Man Utd, Real Madrid and Barcelona all spoke to his agent at SFX.

Vieira became the only option because Emerson and Gerrard said no and Perez got stroppy about dealing with Porto. It's not difficult to see Perez refusing to deal with Porto because of the Carvalho transfer, he dropped out of the Alonso deal because of the hike in the price and rather than negotiate Madrid are spending almost twice as much money on Vieira. Perez is not a rational person and when he decides so the transfer fee is not the issue just his warped principles. Real used to get away with their carry on in the transfer market but since Abramovich has poured money into Chelsea it's no longer the case, now there's a bigger fish in the sea and it's quite upsetting for the ego of Perez.

Madrid have notified Sociedad that they were pulling out of the contract to sign Alonso and now the club are scrambling to find a buyer for the player. He was offered to Liverpool for €18M, then €15M and last weekend Barcelona were asked if they'd be interested in him.

robbie1876

Interesting post, bannor. Presuming that Vieira is definitely going (I want him to stay), I'd love to see a late bid from Chelsea just to stir things up a bit. Surely Abromovich has to has some interest in him, if only to get under the skin of Perez?

Pepe LeFrits

The Muppet wrote:

Very true , They seeem to forget the season before last when Arsenal collapsed when Viera missed games near the end of the season.

I seem to recall that those were the games that Campbell missed due to suspension and Arsenal's defence collapsed. Vieira missed a very large amount of the first half of last season and Arsenal did just fine without him.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

The 2 most influential players for Arsenal are Henry and Vieira, NO DOUBT.

Well, if you say so, it must be true. But most Arsenal fans I know would disagree. Edu eclipsed Vieira for much of last season, but then again I supposed Toure did a good job on keeping the praise off Campbell at the same time. I guess the Sun and the Star are hard to ignore.

LegacyUser

Edu is not in the same class as Vieira in my opinion. As for Henry being replaceable at Arsenal, no way in my opinion unless they totally changed their way of play.

The Clown Man

Bannor feel free to update us as much as possible - your posts are the most interesting I've seen. And fair play for sharing the info with us. Seriously I could read this stuff all day so please humour me as much as possible!

Jivin Turkey

kaids wrote:

Well, if you say so, it must be true. But most Arsenal fans I know would disagree. Edu eclipsed Vieira for much of last season, but then again I supposed Toure did a good job on keeping the praise off Campbell at the same time. I guess the Sun and the Star are hard to ignore.

Ok so please enlighten me, who are Arsenals 2 most influential players?

But anyway I would bet any money that if my choice werent in "most Arsenal fans" top 2 they would certainly be in their top 3. But then again I base all my opinions on what the sun and star say so what would I know?

And then again, Edu must of eclipsed Vieira a lot of times, after all, he did start a massive 13 games in the league.

mayordenis

ill be honest lookin at alst season if i could take either viera or edu to anfueld id go with edu. he was better last season.

Bannor

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Ok so please enlighten me, who are Arsenals 2 most influential players?

In my opinion : Pires and Henry.

Take those two out of the team last season and Arsenal would have struggled, no coincidence that the stumble towards the end of last season coincided with the tiring of those two.

Pepe LeFrits

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Ok so please enlighten me, who are Arsenals 2 most influential players?

I already posted about Arsenal's most influential players.

But anyway I would bet any money that if my choice werent in "most Arsenal fans" top 2 they would certainly be in their top 3. But then again I base all my opinions on what the sun and star say so what would I know?

Apparently everything, NO DOUBT.

And then again, Edu must of eclipsed Vieira a lot of times, after all, he did start a massive 13 games in the league.

Oh, so now suddenly statistics are valuable

Big Ears

apparently the Vieira transfer has hit a snag .

Real Madrid president Florentino Perez will not pay over the odds for Patrick Vieira - insisting that Arsenal's hesitance to sell their influential captain will not drive up his price.

Perez told the Daily Star that the ball is in Arsenal's court - meaning that Vieira himself seems to hold the key to any move.

"We have made our offer to Arsenal and that is as far as it goes," said Perez.

"We will not be raising it as they want, so for the moment talks have broken down."

The Vieira situation has dragged on through the latter half of the summer, and Gunners fans are fearful of losing the midfielder.

It is widely believed that Arsenal will launch a bid for Porto and Portugal star Maniche if Vieira does choose to depart for the Spanish giants.

Maniche would not be a direct replacement for Vieira, but Arsene Wenger is expected to push Lauren into the more defensive central role should his skipper depart.

source: Sky Sports.com

Jivin Turkey

kaids wrote:

I already posted about Arsenal's most influential players.

Apparently everything, NO DOUBT.

Oh, so now suddenly statistics are valuable

Thats marvelous that your only response can be snidey little one liners.

But anyway, I know you posted about Arsenals most important players, and as I said, even amongst fans that dont have Vieira and Henry as 1 and 2, they are in the top 3. I agree that Pires is very important, but Henry on his own gives them enough attacking options to win a game, the loss of Pires would only really hurt Arsenal when Henry wasnt playing.

On the statistics thing I always take them with a pinch of salt. Particularly the ones where a team has only lost X amount of games while a certain player has played. There are so many other variables that go into those, who else was playing, who they were playing, were they home or away to name a few. But I find it hard to believe that Edu "eclipsed" Vieira for "most" of last season when he started only 13 games.

eirebhoy

Jivin Turkey, you believe Vieira was at least Arsenal's 2nd most influential player. I have provided stats of how Arsenal performed without him. You say you take them with a pinch of salt because there are so many factors that take place. It doesn't matter what team was out when Vieira was unavailable because even if they played their 2nd team in all matches that is an excellent record (50 points from 23 matches). All I am saying is they seem to be doing pretty well without him.

PHB

Sorry but wasn't Pires one of the top scorers in the premiership last season?

Big Ears

PHB wrote:

Sorry but wasn't Pires one of the top scorers in the premiership last season?

correct with 14 goals , which was equal to and above a lot of strikers .

gandalf

Looks like he may not be going. Jaysus this is worse than Dallas, what next you see Paddy walking out of the shower

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/arsenal/3530524.stm

moby2101

My mate in London tells me that the Arsenal team photos for the season were taken yesterday, there were 2 team photos taken, one with Paddy and Wenger side by side and the other with Sol in Paddy's place!!!

looks like theres no deal done yet

At this stage I hope he goes,
HES THE CAPTAIN OF ARSENAL...he should stand up and be counted and have the balls to let the fans know either way.
If he goes I hope Arsenal sign Javier Mascherano from River Plate, its rumoured Arsenal have bid 7.5 mil stg for him, I saw a liitle of him in the Copa America and he looked s**t hot , ferocious in the tackle.
Not too sure about the signing of Carrick tho', Wenger has said he willl sign him regardless of whether Paddy stays or goes.

mayordenis

Bannor wrote:

Take those two out of the team last season and Arsenal would have struggled, no coincidence that the stumble towards the end of last season coincided with the tiring of those two.

yes have to agree as the rest of the arsenal weren't tired only those two no one else got tired.

smemon

pires says he's going....http://www.skysports.com/skysports/article/0,,1-1146818,00.html

wenger should stop giving people false hope and just say vieira is going.

beer enigma

Yeah & interestingly enough Wenger commented yesterday that he's given Vieira until the weekend to make up his mind......

midget lord

So he didnt feature in the shield yesterday.

gandalf

He's injured thats why he didn't play.

midget lord

Really? Is this an 'injury' or an injury?

Raskolnikov

Going, going, not gone

It sounds to me like Arsenal are just trying to prise as much money as they can from Real. I'm half expecting Chelsea now to suddenly romp in with a £30 million offer and snatch him away

qwertyup

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/a/arsenal/3548238.stm

Pires claims he has already made up his mind to leave. Pires said: "All the players wanted Patrick to stay but he has made a choice and we respect that. We can all understand why he's decided to go."

He's gone

beer enigma

Raskolnikov wrote:

Going, going, not gone

It sounds to me like Arsenal are just trying to prise as much money as they can from Real. I'm half expecting Chelsea now to suddenly romp in with a £30 million offer and snatch him away

Well they'd never sell to another Permiership team, but i do thik its a matter of time now & to be honest - not before time. The potential damage done by the rumours to the moral of the team & supporters is very unsettling. I for one just want the whole matter over & done with now.

On performance yesterday, we'll miss him, but still provide one of of a title challenge this year.

Villain

Unless Pires was misquoted he looks likely to go if Real can agree a fee.

LegacyUser

Surely Pires can not get away with saying this sort of stuff to the media. I mean, surely...

Villain

Pires says he never said it:

http://www.sportinglife.com/story_get.dor?STORY_NAME=soccer/04/08/09/manual_060200.html

gandalf

LOL Neverending Story !!

Pepe LeFrits

Until I hear it from Patrick Vieira or Arsene Wenger...

LegacyUser

this is boring now. make a decision patrick or else media stfu. it is draining.

smemon

its arsenal and vieira's fault for not saying whats happening.

come out and say patricks staying or say he's going. or madrid, for gods sake up the offer by 5 mil.

mayordenis

im a liverpool fan so i dont care but it must be hell for arsenal fans, the club should always keep the fans informed, that isnt viera's job.

eirebhoy

smemon wrote:

its arsenal and vieira's fault for not saying whats happening.

come out and say patricks staying or say he's going. or madrid, for gods sake up the offer by 5 mil.

And Man Utd keep their fans informed about every little bit of negotiation?

tinofapples

Bannor is the man to listen to , he's got the contacts !!

yom 1

Just read this on bbc

"Arsenal captain Patrick Vieira will join Real Madrid in a five-year deal on Thursday, according to Spanish reports.
Newspaper Diaria AS has claimed the move will be finalised when Real return from their Champions League qualifier against Wisla Krakow in Poland.

But the paper added that there is still no agreement between the clubs over the fee and how it should be paid.

Real are offering £20m over four years, while the Gunners want £23m in two instalments for the France midfielder.

Gunners boss Arsene Wenger has given Vieira until Saturday to decide where his future lies."

Its looking more and more likely that he is goin

Bannor

The sticking point is how the money is paid.

Arsenal are trying to squeeze Real to cough up a lump sum of €20M up front and the remaining €15M this time next year. Madrid can't afford this and are pointing out that the regulations state that the fee is payable over the length of the contract.

Drag00n79

Just saw this:

VIEIRA DEAL REPORTED
Wednesday 11 August 2004

Reports in the Spanish press claim that Real Madrid have finally agreed a deal with Arsenal to buy Patrick Vieira.

The Spanish giants are believed to have finalised a 33 million euro (£22.1million) fee for the French midfielder and he is expected to be unveiled as a Madrid player on Friday.

Both of the Spanish capital's leading sports papers Marca and Diario AS carry the same story about Vieira, with the fee reportedly three million euros more than Madrid were originally prepared to pay.

The two papers also report that Vieira has settled for a salary of around £3million a year, far less than the likes of David Beckham, Ronaldo, Zinedine Zidane and Luis Figo receive.

Arsenal boss Arsene Wenger had told Vieira that he had to make a decision about his future by this weekend and it now appears certain that the Gunners skipper has chosen to try his luck in Spain.
Source: http://www.4thegame.com/club.d/afc/news/158073

Bannor

Shamrok wrote:

Both of the Spanish capital's leading sports papers Marca and Diario AS carry the same story about Vieira

When Real Madrid want to announce a story they invite the editors of both papers to a meeting and it's dictated to them. So it's hardly surprising that they both carry the same story.