The Da Vinci Code - Dan Brown

Beruthiel

I read it in two days over the weekend, I could not put it down

I would really like to seperate the fiction from the non fiction

there are some questions I need clarification on, I intend to do some research as soon as I can
for example

how do we know that 80 gospels were written, were they?
how much proof is there that perhaps Mary Magdalene was married to Jesus?

the Priory of Sion and Knights Templar do exist, which makes the arguments in the book all the more intriguing
I had never heard of the Opus Dei who also exist

any comments?

Stark

Don't know the exact number of gospels but there are definitely a whole lot more than just the 4 in the Bible. The Church says that there's a load of overlap though and the 4 in the Bible represent an almost complete picture.

newgrange

Have a search for Gnostic Gospels - some of them are online.

Opus Dei are only one of the dodgy outfits - another would be the Communion and Liberation Movement, also active here.

Beruthiel

Stark wrote:

The Church says that there's a load of overlap though and the 4 in the Bible represent an almost complete picture.

I wouldn't believe that's the reason for a second stark - I would go with the notion that they picked the 4 that best suited their needs at the time


Excerpts from the Gospel of Mary (which she is meant to have written)
The Coptic papyrus

Peter said to Mary, "Sister, we know that the Savior loved you more than other women [cf. John 11:5, Luke 10:38-42]. Tell us the words of the Savior which you have in mind since you know them; and we do not, nor have we heard of them."

Levi answered and said to Peter, "Peter, you are always irate. Now I see that you are contending against the woman like the adversaries. But if the Savior made her worthy, who are you to reject her? Surely the Savior knew her very well [cf. Luke 10:38- 42]. For this reason he loved her more than us

http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/gospels/gosmary.htm

GuanYin

Beruthiel wrote:

I read it in two days over the weekend, I could not put it down

I would really like to seperate the fiction from the non fiction

there are some questions I need clarification on, I intend to do some research as soon as I can
for example
how do we know that 80 gospels were written, were they?
how much proof is there that perhaps Mary Magdalene was married to Jesus?

the Priory of Sion and Knights Templar do exist, which makes the arguments in the book all the more intriguing
I had never heard of the Opus Dei who also exist
any comments?

Unfortunately most people who read this are let down after when they discover that Mr Brown took no small amount of artistic licence with the book.

The 80 Gospels are far wide of the mark, the current estimate is 32 (I think - the website below says 35), quite where the other 48 he got are from is anyones guess.

There is no proof regarding Mary Magdalene as such, but most historians contest that this is very likely. Many of the orginal texts and scripts reference her as as close to Jesus. Her portrayal as a prostitute came from a speech made by one pope.

Priory of Sion exist but were founded in the 50's by three peopel as a joke. One of them had been convicted for petty con scams. The actualy "organisation" has not been active since shortly after it was founded. They bear no resemblance to the Priory in the book. There was an Order of Zion which you can read about in the link below.

The Knights Templar are indeed true historical figures and have often been associated with the Freemasons.

Opus Dei do exist and while, like any religious sect, there are more fanatical members, I think they were quite unfairly portrayed in the book.

For more info on the Facts and Fiction of the book, go here

Shilo

Yep, it was a good read, if a little flimsy. I kind of got the feeling it was written very quickly. I didn't like the fact that he called the curator Jacques Sauniere - I thought it made it difficult for people to sperate the truth from the fiction. (There was a Jacque Sauniere connected with the Prieure de Sion but he was a priest in Chateau-le-Rennes and that's a whole other part of the story.) I felt that Dan Brown just took all the sensational stuff and tried to stuff it into a story - it did strike me as a purely commercial venture. Not that there's anything exactly wrong with that and it's bound to make people want to look more into the ideas it contains.

There're quite a lot of books out there that you might be interested in reading if this interested you. The guys who wrote these (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/202-2124224-0506239) were among the very first to bring it into mainstream conversation. I've read all of these over the years and they are fascinating. There was something of a flood of literature on this topic in the middle 90's onwards. The idea of Jesus being married is not a new one, although it was considered very controversial when it became more of an openly discussed academic topic during the 80's. Historically, for a Jewish rabbi to be unmarried would have been more than a little frowned upon so it's more likely than not that he was.

As for the idea of a number of gospels, it's worth remembering that the official canon of the catholic/Catholic church was not decided upon until 345 A.D. I don't know the exact number of gospels that were excluded but it's possible that there are some that have yet to be discovered or revealed. Who knows what the Vatican has stashed away in it's libraries?!

Opus Dei was, I think, mentioned in the Irish news some years ago - I can't remember why now but I think it was something to do with politicians that were members? Does anyone else remember this? It's another one of those big Catholic organisations that probably has more going on under the surface that they'd be comfortable sharing. And that's a gross generalisation on my part so I'd just do a Google search on them and see what comes up!

Beruthiel

syke wrote:

Priory of Sion exist but were founded in the 50's by three peopel as a joke. [/URL]

if this is true syke, then how can he give the names of so many famous people who were meant to be the Grand Master?!

thanks for the link shilo

Quigs Snr

Hey Shilo, Sauniere the priest at Rennes Le Chateau is an interesting tale too, one I had almost forgotten. A few years ago I read a book called the Tomb of God which was obviously a huge influence in Browns work, and then a couple of years ago driving through france I made a visit to the place itself. Definitely got some atmosphere about it.

As for the Da Vinci Code, well I loved it, but he has just taken some truths, and embelished with semi plausible fiction based on half truths and made a ripping good yarn.

The primary complaint (normally made by historians, or turbo catholics) is that the majority of it is pure hokum. Get a life people, of course it's hokum, thats why it's in the popular fiction and not the history section in the bookstore.

paulj13

Ya it’s a really good book.

There was a recent article that criticised this in the Sunday business post a few weeks back. Link below
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/07/18/story402551679.asp
however I think they missed the point. The book a fiction murder mystery at its basic level and should always be taken with a pinch of salt. However, others don’t seem the feel that way and have made a lot of money writing books about the, er…book. 13 and counting. The link above will give you lots of info.

By the way you should read angles and demon which covers a lot more of the churches pass and is just as exciting as the de Vinci code. I’m in the middle of “deception point” at the moment and I have to say I have never enjoyed a writing style more. Dan Brown has a true gift in making people turn pages.

Final point could you edit your first mail as you give a big part of the plot away in one of your questions. You can leave it in but use the spoiler tag to hide it.

GuanYin

Beruthiel wrote:

if this is true syke, then how can he give the names of so many famous people who were meant to be the Grand Master?!

Erm, cos its a work of fiction and he made it up?

Links to a detailed history of the Order of Zion (which bears resemblence to Brown's PoS and the actualy Priory of Sion which was nothing more than a hoax group that borrowed the old mythos to proport itself as having masonic links which didn't actually exist - are here.

From the link in my first post:

Priory of Sion
The ORDER of Zion is an organization that has been around since the middle ages. But the PRIORY of Sion is a brand new group that was just out for fun.

In 1956, four guys decided to have some fun, and created their own little group called the "Priory of Sion" (Prieure du Sion). They named it after a nearby mountain with that name. As was required by law, they filed papers to create their group. The French Government listed them as a known organization in 1956 as a result. The president at the time was André Bonhomme, and another member was Pierre Plantard. In 1996, Andre told the BBC: "The Priory of Sion doesn't exist anymore. We were never involved in any activities of a political nature. It was four friends who came together to have fun. We called ourselves the Priory of Sion because there was a mountain by the same name close-by. I haven't seen Pierre Plantard in over 20 years and I don't know what he's up to but he always had a great imagination. I don't know why people try to make such a big thing out of nothing."

However, Pierre Plantard was a con-man who in fact went to jail for 6 months for his games. Back in 1942 he'd formed the Order of Knighthood called the Alpha Galates, to take advantage of people. He decided to do the same thing with his new Sion group. While the group was really about low-cost housing and put out a little leaflet called "Circuit" to talk about it, Pierre decided to do bigger and better things with his newly formed group.

Pierre developed a whole storyline, claiming he was descended from kings and that there were secret documents in the Rennes-le-Château. Unfortunately for him, he ran completely afoul of the law in his forged documents and was brought to court. Here he admitted that they were forgeries. In fact, his genealogy that tied him to French kings was stolen word for word from a history article.

So while an Order of Sion existed back in the 1600s, the group active from the 1900s onwards was a "joke group" incluing a con man who has admitted to his misdeeds.

funky penguin

His theory on the last supper is intruiging, as are alot of his ideas. Its terribly difficult to distinguish fact from fiction, so the best thing to do is hear both sides of the story and decide for yourself. Unless, of course, their is undisputable evidence.
Personnally, i think the whole idea with the chalice symbol etc, is plausable. Although I think i need more info. I'd love to study symbology for a bit after reading this aswell.

But, ironically, what I found most interesting in the book was phi. I'd never heard aboot it before.

funky penguin

Actually, was that whole Constantine thing true, about juxtaposing pagan beliefs with the beliefs of Christ's followers, and totally deamonising women?

newgrange

Yes, Constantine was no fool. The old time religion wasn't always going down so well, so they nicked popular 'pagan' elements such as Saturnalia, a good old party time around December to celebrate the rebirth of the sun god, which became Christmas to commemorate the birth of Jesus.

The women thing is interesting. Most of the New Testament emphasises the role women played in the early church - a number of women are mentioned as prominent in the early Christian church, (Junia mentioned by Paul as an apostle in Romans 16:7, Phoebe the leader of the Christian community in Cenchreae in Romans 16:1-2, for example) and of course the first witnesses to the resurrection were women, and horror of horrors one of them was a prostitute (allegedly).

It's hard for us to imagine the impact this would have had on a first-century Jewish audience - something akin to a modern-day Jesus choosing to consort with, and reveal himself to paedophiles and pornographers perhaps?

Once the gospels began to be translated, copied and re-written, words which had no specific gender in Greek mysteriously became male in Latin or in 'translation'. Phoebe was no longer a leader or deacon, but a 'servant', and poor old Junia became Junias.

midget lord

So, was daVinci grand master? Was he trying to get accross a message?


Great book by the way, i read it in two days by the pool in rhodes *sigh*

mycroft

Possibly one of the most annoying books I've read, ever.

For starts I'm staggered by the amount of people who take what he wrote as Cannon, or fact.

The idea of this book is such a rip off of far superior work like Robert Anton Wilson's the Illumanti trilogy and Eco's "Focault's Pendenlum"

It breaks one of my cardinal rules of fiction (never buy any book which features the words, "beautiful, brilliant, and mathematican" as a character description"; see also film rules, JLO as a criminal psychologist )

I read it over a weekend while working, my girlfriend runs a 2nd hand bookshop, and got it for me, as I knew it would be quiet, I was staggered at how moronic and flimsy the plot was.

The only thing that made it worthwhile was the person who read it before me was so frustrated at the plodding plot that they took to writing sarcastic comments in the margin so

when our intrepid hero a havard professor and his brilliant cryptographer sidekick take FOUR PAGES to figure out the 10 digit code to the Swiss Safe Deposit Box might in fact be the same 10 numbers the dead curator scrawled by his corpse,

I found "about ****ing time" scrawled next to the page. I swear it was the only thing that made that dreadful book worth reading.

Finally I found the book to be an enormous cop out. It makes no reference to the fact that the Grail could change the religious and political situation in the middle east, solve many of the issues that cause conflict between Muslims and Christians, and weaken the church considerately. Finally in case it offended right wing catholics it makes Opus Dei a pupper organisation for the evil villian instead of portraying it as it is a bloody sinister fascict catholic group.

Shilo

newgrange wrote:

The women thing is interesting. Most of the New Testament emphasises the role women played in the early church - a number of women are mentioned as prominent in the early Christian church, (Junia mentioned by Paul as an apostle in Romans 16:7, Phoebe the leader of the Christian community in Cenchreae in Romans 16:1-2, for example) and of course the first witnesses to the resurrection were women, and horror of horrors one of them was a prostitute (allegedly).

It's hard for us to imagine the impact this would have had on a first-century Jewish audience - something akin to a modern-day Jesus choosing to consort with, and reveal himself to paedophiles and pornographers perhaps?

I'm not sure that that's a fair similie. The Jewish faith hasn't sought to demean women in quite the same way as Christianity and most pagan faiths were, and indeed are, very female-friendly. The traditional ideal within Judaism is that women are rulers of things domestic while men are in charge of everything else. If you look back through the old testament there are numerous Jewish heroines: Esther, Ruth, Rachael, and Moses own sister Miriam to name but a few. I know it can all appear terribly barbaric to our allegedly modern viewpoint but there was, and is, much respect accorded the feminine within Judaism. Hence you find the feminine Wisdom of God, Sophia.

I read the Tomb of God, Quigs Snr and enjoyed it. I was interested in the whole story of the links between the Templars and the Priory and Da Vinci and Rosslyn in Scotland.

I think that if you look into it and read a wide selection of what has been written, you find that there are too many coincidences to dismiss the whle idea out of hand. The coincidences range over such a huge space of time and through so many different disciplines! The job is to st down and go through what is available. Beruthiel, if you are interested, and have any spare time to devote to it, start with some of the Baignent & Leigh books. I think ultimately, what it boils down to in my own mind is that, while I treat it all with a pinch of salt, why would these people work for years and years on a lie? There are 1001 things to make documentaries about that would probably interest people far more than the whole "Jesus had a wife and kids" theme. Especially in such a secular society as we have nowdays!

funky penguin

Shilo wrote:

I think that if you look into it and read a wide selection of what has been written, you find that there are too many coincidences to dismiss the whle idea out of hand.

Definately. But, as you said, not all the coincidences can be trusted, just as some of writings in the bible et al cant be trusted.

That list of the ex-grandmasters....was that proven to be fabricated?

Shilo, where could one purchase The Tomb of God? Is it an easy read, or is it like Oxford-i-use-the-big-words-cos-i-can text?

ll=llannah

I finally got around to reading it - I thought it was a decent read. It wasn't as fantastic as everybody was saying it was, imo. Maybe for people who aren't already familiar with goddess imagery and symbolism and art history and basic crypto stuff it was more interesting. But I've been raised on all of that so it wasn't new to me. However, I did find it interesting to read how he integrated all of those subjects into his book. It's kind of frustrating, though, to hear a lot of people saying how it's a revolutionary book and Dan Brown is a genius as if he created all of the theories and is telling the world for the first time the stories of the edited bible, magdalene's life and involvement with christ, struggles against patriarchal religions which devalue the feminine, etcetc. I mean, I enjoyed the book because it touched on so many things I am interested in, but I didn't think it was especially well written. (and the denouement left quite a bit lacking, imo.)
As to clarifying the fiction vs. nonfiction in the book, I don't really have anything to add to what everyone's said, but there have always been groups dedicated to honoring and reintegrating the sacred feminine into our society - they just aren't exactly mainstream. Which does make this book interesting - because a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't care about that kind have thing have gotten interested in it because of the book. so that's a plus.
/cue end of rambling

pork99

I haven't read this book but from what I can glean from reviews it looks very similar to Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco (which I've bought but have not started reading yet)

Has anyone read both books?

pork99

The idea of this book is such a rip off of far superior work like Robert Anton Wilson's the Illumanti trilogy and Eco's "Focault's Pendenlum"

woops! missed that the first time I read this thread

alleepally

There are a ton of books out there along the lines of "decoding the Da Vinci Files" which helps sort the fact from the fiction. Whether someone chooses to accept the facts from the fiction is another matter entirely.

Do a search on Amazon anyway.

Some interesting plays on the name Dan Brown from the internet anagram thingy. There's something fishy about this guy I think.

Brand Won
Warn Bond .... James Bond? hmmmm
Wand Born ... witchcraft?
Ban Dr Won ... who is Dr. Won?
Bran Down ... Sponsored by Kelloggs all bran?

Shilo

Funky Penguin: I'm not sure where you'd find 'The Tomb of God' tbh. I don't recall it being particularly hard going or academic. The nice thing about most of the books I've read on the topic was that they were by laymen (as it were) and were fairly clear in their explanations etc. TToG deals predominantly with the Templar angle. I think I bought it when I was in college in Wales and it had only just been released (c. 1999 perhaps.) You can get it here ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0751519618/qid=1091787532/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/026-8206982-6078843 ) or you can have a look in one of the bigger bookstores. I'm not sure where you're based but if you're in or around Dublin, I'd bet that Hodges & Figgis would have it.

I'm not sure about the list of Grand Masters. I don't think it could be proven one way or another, which I suppose is probably the point!

And I'd defintely go with everything ||=||annah said. It brought a lot of the different threads all together but it certainly wasn't anything new. If you're at all familiar with feminine theology or art history, there was an overwhelming temptation to yawn! But I still think that if it gets people interested and thinking about different angles of religion and varying belief systems, it's no bad thing!

cc007

I also read this book in a matter of days and must say it's one of the best i've ever read !!!!

Quigs Snr

Funky Penguin, the Tomb of God is tough enough going in parts, starts off easy and them they get into mathematical messages that are supposed to be hidden in paintings and it turns into a trigonometry textbook for a while, but overall an interesting if at times difficult read.

The largest collection of these books I ever saw was in Rennes Le Chateau in a bookshop in the town, they had pretty much every book ever written on the subject.

Bri

I was in Paris when I raced through the book. Visited most places he mentions which was great and most of his architecture is correct - as he says at the start.

Great read, poor ending.

Scruff

reading this at the moment. this bloody brilliant. dont like like that Bri said it has a poor ending though.....but /sticks fingers in ears/ naaah naahhhn naaah na na, i'm not even listening!!!

laurelhedare

My friends and I are pretty divided over how we view this book. I loved it! Thought it was a really intriguing read, which I took as fiction with some non-fictional basis. A few of my friends felt it was utter crap simply based on Brown's lack of true art history knowledge. One example is that it's apparently widely known within the art community that DaVinci's "perfect circle" and around the "perfectly proportioned man" wasn't actually perfect at all, so Brown's reference to this is incorrect. They also question the hidden clues in The Last Supper painting that Brown refers too, saying there's no evidence that these are true.

I simply choose to believe that Brown is making some fictional assertions to move along his intriguing story. Still, some of his assertions don't seem too off the mark. We know the Church has never shied away from manufacturing the truth to fit their own political needs of the time, and it wouldn't be surprising at all to see that the many many centuries of female subjugation has been based on their concerted efforts.

Non-sequitor: Anyone watch the Daily Show, I just found this awesome site with great Jon Stewart election vignettes. Lots of fun. Tell me what you think of them http://195.172.204.132/imredirect.cfm?Ref=Indecision&VID=2278&CID=1&TID=1122&UID=20

Rredwell

Brown's research is stunning, but in The DVC (and Angels and Demons) he could have researched the way Europeans talk better. For example, have you ever heard an Italian say, "Half a mile? That's 9 blocks"? Or an Englishman say "unleaded gas"?
Apart from this, Brown's books adopt a gripping pace, and quick succession of tightly packed twists and turns. And the puzzles and codes throughout leave you with the shin-kicking thought "why didn't I think of that?"

Talliesin

syke wrote:

Unfortunately most people who read this are let down after when they discover that Mr Brown took no small amount of artistic licence with the book.

He did? I might actually read it then, the reviews had lead me to think it was yet another rehash of the tired Gospel of St. Thomas meets Black Madonna meets Templars meets some sort of grand conspiracy theme with nothing new from the author.

Really, alleging that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene is just for authors that fear controversy and avoid suggesting that he was seeing St. John on the side too.

Bri

Rredwell wrote:

Apart from this, Brown's books adopt a gripping pace, and quick succession of tightly packed twists and turns. And the puzzles and codes throughout leave you with the shin-kicking thought "why didn't I think of that?"

I'd have to disagree...having just finished 'Digital Fortress'. Both the latter and the DaVinci Code are really exciting and you do fly through them - so credit where credit is due - but like someone said earlier:
Don't you find every so often your reading something, and see where he's going with it, or understand how something is solved - and yet he continues to keep explaining it and explaining it. The characters repeat and repeat things. I mean it's beginning to get to me now. I know it's aimed at a mainstream audience but surely there's no need to dumb it down to this kind of level. And less of the unnecessary romance too!

Still can't deny he's an intriguing read, and his newer work seems improved.

RuggieBear

I actually decided to read this when one of my college supervisors (who i rate as a reasonablely intellegent individual) told me how great this book is. Found it an enjoyable enough read but i had heard it all before (i love all this spear of destiny, grail type malarky!). Very easy style and i agree with one review that described it as "addictive tosh".

Also got my hands on the other books and find that i'm getting a little irritated that all these "beautiful brilliant young women" who've lost their fathers keep falling for the middle aged heros of the books.

And i would reccommend Foucault's Pendulum over it any day!!