British rule in Gibraltar:Should it end?

sceptre

chill wrote:

However I would support a third way ..... Gibralter gets overall sovereignty but there is a very high level of self rule and some kind of joint authority with the British, who get to maintain a military base there, for a period of, say, ten years ?

I'd support this (if it's what the inhabitants wanted). However, the Treaty of Utrecht is pretty clear that in the event of the British Crown relinguishing its claim on Gibraltar, Spain gets offered it first. Gibraltar already has control over quite a lot of its own business - pretty much anything that doesn't include foreign relations, defence, financial security and internal security (I suppose they could take on their own internal security). A literal reading of the Treaty would appear to indicate that if Britain moves out, Spain gets to move in regardless. Which currently appears to be the opposite of what the inhabitants want - over 99% of the population voted to reject the last referendum (in 2002) on joint sovereignty. Caught between a rock and a hard place (pun partly intended).

chill

sceptre wrote:

I'd support this (if it's what the inhabitants wanted). However, the Treaty of Utrecht is pretty clear that in the event of the British Crown relinguishing its claim on Gibraltar, Spain gets offered it first. Gibraltar already has control over quite a lot of its own business - pretty much anything that doesn't include foreign relations, defence, financial security and internal security (I suppose they could take on their own internal security). A literal reading of the Treaty would appear to indicate that if Britain moves out, Spain gets to move in regardless. Which currently appears to be the opposite of what the inhabitants want - over 99% of the population voted to reject the last referendum (in 2002) on joint sovereignty. Caught between a rock and a hard place (pun partly intended).

Well the thing is... that Gibraltar and Britain are free to renegotiate the Treaty however they want. Yes Gibralter do control a lot of their business but I don't believe that is codified. In a new treaty this could be formalised ina transition period.

sceptre

chill wrote:

Well the thing is... that Gibraltar and Britain are free to renegotiate the Treaty however they want.

Of course. I've my doubts about whether Spain would go for it but I think your idea/plan/call it what you will is pretty sound. In any case, a self-governing Gibraltar (or a power-sharing Gibraltar, or an independent Gibraltar) would be better than what Spain reckons it has at the moment. The original treaty stated that there was to be no cross-border trade with Gibraltar except in the case of emergency. I'm not too sure how much this has been abandoned since the border was re-opened but it must have been changed (effectively re-negotiated to some degree), at the very least effectively due to the number of people from Gibraltar buying property in Spain and vice-versa so there's even a short history of this particular treaty being re-evaluated even in a small way with regard to Gibraltar in particular.

Yes Gibralter do control a lot of their business but I don't believe that is codified.

Correct, it isn't. There's a new (early) draft constitution on the table AFAIK (I don't have a copy) which apparently includes the codification of what they're already doing (and presumably a little bit more). I suspect there's a little bit of heel-dragging in Whitehall due to the lack of movement on the powersharing issue.

David-[RLD]-

Deleted User wrote:

As for the Basque area. You have got to be joking? Get out of that region? hardly. Grant them proper rights to language and culture, yes. But clear out no way. That area has been part of mainland Spain for hundreds of years. Anyway I don't like to see any government bend their heads to terrorists.

Ireland was part of the UK for hundreds of years; almost a millennium. Would you say "no, keep Ireland as part of the UK, it's been under British control for almost a thousand years" if the Brits were still in control? And weren't the IRB, ICA and Irish Volunteers technically, in the eyes of others (but not my eyes), terrorists?

secret_squirrel

There is one major difference between the basque region and Ireland though, Ireland is a land mass in its own right, which made it simpler to divorce us from the UK. It also helps preserve culture and ethnicity.