keep stum about the amount of irish illegals in us

chewy

http://www.irishecho.com/newspaper/story.cfm?id=14944

"His question specifically asked how many undocumented Irish the government thought were living and working on the U.S. eastern seaboard.


According to McGrath, he was soon contacted by a department official and asked to withdraw the question. McGrath said it was indicated to him that the department was concerned that any number made public would attract the attention of U.S. immigration authorities and would prompt a greater effort to apprehend and deport undocumented Irish.

"

this story was in a couple of papers last sunady wasn't it, didn't here anything about it since trying to look for more details now....

its strange there must be thousands of em, and the us aredoing the right by illegals over there by gving them oppurtunites to go legit... but it still quite hypocritical of the us and of ireland saying it doens't want illegals here when they's a long history of ten thousands of illegals going to the us

arcadegame2004

its strange there must be thousands of em, and the us aredoing the right by illegals over there by gving them oppurtunites to go legit... but it still quite hypocritical of the us and of ireland saying it doens't want illegals here when they's a long history of ten thousands of illegals going to the us

No it isn't hypocritical. As explained by me exhaustively during the citizenship-referendum debate, the United States was a country built on immigration. No single ethnic-group constitutes an "American" ethnic-identity. this differs drastically from the nations of Europe, who base their sense of identity primarily on the idea of an ethnic majority. That is not to say we bear ill will against other ethnic-groups. It's just that our interests have to be foremost in our consideration.

I personally feel that if there are as some claim, large job-vacancies that cannot be filled in this country, then the Irish Government should do its utmost to encourage Irish emigrants to return home. At least then immigration wouldn't have to mean an erosion of Irish identity.

You are also ignoring the obvious fact that the United States is a massive country and large-scale Irish migration in the past was not going to cause major problems for the US economy in terms of competition for jobs, etc. and in terms of the costs to the US welfare-state.

simu

No matter what you say these Irish people are breaking US law. How big or multi-ethnic does a country have to be to make it acceptable to flout that country's residency laws?

por

chewy wrote:

http://www.irishecho.com/newspaper/story.cfm?id=14944

the department was concerned that any number made public would attract the attention of U.S. immigration authorities and would prompt a greater effort to apprehend and deport undocumented Irish.

If the US authorities wanted to deport Irish undocumented all they would have to do is walk into and Irish bar in any Irish suburb of Boston and NY on a Saturday night and empty the place.

But if they did they would be hurting the local economy, the Irish illegals mind their kids, paint their houses, cut their grass etc etc.

There is no great effort (at a local level) to deport Irish illegals, mainly because they are white, they speak English, they work hard and they sped money.

Fair enough a few got deported after being questioned on a train in Buffalo coming back to Boston after the North American GAA championships in Chicago in 2002, however by all accounts they brought attention on themselves.

bonkey

arcadegame2004 wrote:

As explained by me exhaustively during the citizenship-referendum debate,

Dear lord...

arcadegame...the only people likely to believe you explained anything exhaustively during that referendum debate are yourself and those who haven't read your posts. You spent most of that debate ignoring people pointing out the factual errors, logical inconsistencies, etc. in your posts, whilst trotting out the same ultra-slanted half-truths which suited your position.

Please, please, please let it go. We do not want to go back there.

the United States was a country built on immigration.

Correct. Key point of this sentence is that it is referring to the past tense. It has absolutely no relevance to the facts of today - the number of Irish immigrants currently in the US. Ireland used to have a massive emigration trend at the same time as the US was built on immigration....which should show you just how irrelevant that point is.

You are also ignoring the obvious fact that the United States is a massive country and large-scale Irish migration in the past was not going to cause major problems for the US economy ...

And you're still not talking about the present day. The quoted question was referring to the number of illegal immigrants in the US today - people who have no legal right to be in that nation. Deal with them.

Also, consider that the US has had an increasing level of employment for much of the past 4 years - again undermining your argument further.

But I guess you'll just ignore these points too and restate your case as though it were unquestionable fact once more and continue doing so until no-one could be bothered correcting you any more.....

So lets just shortcut it, shall we....

I retract my arguments. arcadegame2004 is clearly right in everything he/she says. Even when - and especially when - they make no sense and are made up.

jc

arcadegame2004

simu wrote:

No matter what you say these Irish people are breaking US law. How big or multi-ethnic does a country have to be to make it acceptable to flout that country's residency laws?

Well I'm not saying that it is acceptable to break these laws. But in a country with tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of people, it is far less bothersome for the population of the said country. That's sort of what I mean.

If enough Irish people returned home it would solve any skills-shortgages that might exist though.

Originally posted by Bonkey
Also, consider that the US has had an increasing level of employment for much of the past 4 years - again undermining your argument further.

I assume you mean unemployment which has risen in the US in the last 4 years? Or am I wrong.

I think the point you are trying to make is to counter the argument I made about the small size of the Irish emigrant population in the US as a proportion of the US population. However, I feel that such competition is far from being the basis of the US's current problems.

I also feel that an understanding of the past is required to understand fully the present-day nature of nation states and how these past factors create the impetus for different immigration-policies in different states.

simu

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well I'm not saying that it is acceptable to break these laws. But in a country with tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of people, it is far less bothersome for the population of the said country. That's sort of what I mean.

If enough Irish people returned home it would solve any skills-shortgages that might exist though.

It's either acceptable or it's not, there's no "bothersome" about it. It's up to the US authorities to deal with illegal immigrants in their country though. In one way it's laughable that this question was blocked as I'm sure the US authorities are well aware of the situation with Irish illegal immigrants but getting back to the main point, it is worrying that TD's are being censored in this way. What other questions are being blocked, I wonder.

As for Irish people returning here - many of them don't want to return, they're not interested in the osrt of work available here and to be honest, I couldn't care less where new workers come from as long as they do their work well.

dubhthach

I think the US should deport the lot of them, i know they tend to slap 10year bans on anyone they do catch. i always find it ironic that perople are coming in from eastern europe to do ****e work when there are a load of irish in the US working illegal doing the same ****e work. :rolleyes:

Sparks

In other words arcade, if the immigrants are honest-to-goodness, hard-working, white Irishmen, immigration, even illegal immigration, is okay; but if they're nigerians trying to legally immigrate to Ireland, you're a step away from taking the shotgun off the wall.
:rolleyes:

There are times I wish I could renounce other people's citizenships...

arcadegame2004

Sparks that is an unfair caricature of what I am saying. My point is about the size of the existing population of a state in relation to immigrants arriving there. Were we a much bigger country population-wise I might consider being more liberal. But we're not.

chewy

well i reckon the us and irish immigration attorities know full well how many illegal irish there are.. they just don't want to have it highlighted in the media... for one it would show that the us have no clue who is in their country apart from all the pontification about security.. it would also question whether these illegals are security risk... and it would be bad pr for irish-us relations

it hypyocritical cos alot of irish tds are saying hey give these us/irish guys a break and anmesty while not saying that to non-eu over here....

even if they're illegal don't just deport them give em a oppurtunites to go legal

ionapaul

arcadegame2004 wrote:

You are also ignoring the obvious fact that the United States is a massive country and large-scale Irish migration in the past was not going to cause major problems for the US economy in terms of competition for jobs, etc. and in terms of the costs to the US welfare-state.

Don't want to jump on the 'bash arcade' bandwagon, but some of the above is incorrect. In 1860 approximately 25% of the population of New York city was
Irish-born, with god knows how many Irish-Americans. The natives were up in arms about the influx of dirty papists who a) were unskilled b) couldn't speak English and c) voted in blocks and upset the political structure on the entire Eastern Seaboard. A great book to read touching on some of these points is 'How the Irish became White' - we were seen as sub-human, not true Western Europeans for a long time over there. There was massive upheaval in the post-famine years in America because the Irish would work for practically nothing and in real terms, drove down the wages of the natives! The Know-Nothing political party enjoyed some success in the US at this time (particularly in the Northern, non0slaveholding states) by campaigning against Catholic immigrants...i.e. the Irish.

Our immigrants are causing far less of an impact now over there. Likewise the immigrants we are currently hosting here in Ireland. It is amazingly hypocritical for the Irish to protest the economic migration of people to our country, when we have benefitted so much from remittances sent by our 'asylum seekers' during the 19th and 20th centuries.

gurramok

dubhthach wrote:

I think the US should deport the lot of them, i know they tend to slap 10year bans on anyone they do catch. i always find it ironic that perople are coming in from eastern europe to do ****e work when there are a load of irish in the US working illegal doing the same ****e work. :rolleyes:

Exactly.
They should all be deported for breaking the laws of a foreign country. Just because they are Irish does not make them special nor to have sympathy with. If it was any other ethnic group in the US, they would be deported.

There is plenty of work for them to do here anyway. If they want to work in the US they should of went the legal way (visa thing!)

Time Magazine

ionapaul wrote:

Don't want to jump on the 'bash arcade' bandwagon, but some of the above is incorrect. In 1860 approximately 25% of the population of New York city was
Irish-born, with god knows how many Irish-Americans. The natives were up in arms about the influx of dirty papists who a) were unskilled b) couldn't speak English and c) voted in blocks and upset the political structure on the entire Eastern Seaboard. A great book to read touching on some of these points is 'How the Irish became White' - we were seen as sub-human, not true Western Europeans for a long time over there. There was massive upheaval in the post-famine years in America because the Irish would work for practically nothing and in real terms, drove down the wages of the natives! The Know-Nothing political party enjoyed some success in the US at this time (particularly in the Northern, non0slaveholding states) by campaigning against Catholic immigrants...i.e. the Irish.

Our immigrants are causing far less of an impact now over there. Likewise the immigrants we are currently hosting here in Ireland. It is amazingly hypocritical for the Irish to protest the economic migration of people to our country, when we have benefitted so much from remittances sent by our 'asylum seekers' during the 19th and 20th centuries.

Hurrah! Great post.

Indy Megan

As an American searching for a way to obtain a work permit in Ireland, I tripped over this board while doing research, and needless to say found this dialogue quite interesting.

Although America is a large country, it is short sighted to say that due to its sheer size, that there is more room for immigrants, physically and economically. America has shouldered its fair share of economic burdens in recent years. Unemployment is up, average wages are down. Given these glaring problems, and the social issues that are hurdles in this country even in times of economic prosperity - homelessness, the lack of public health care to extend health benefits to the poor, and a lagging education system, to name a few - you'd be hard pressed to find someone who thinks America has an unlimited number of resources to extend to an endless flow of people into the country.

America no more owes the rest of the world a work permit than a country a fraction of its size. The arguments are the same - we should take care of our own first, before extending benefits to those from other countries. But the standards are not the same. In my personal circumstances, I'm looking for legal employment. I want to work hard, pay taxes, and am ready and willing to stand in line for a job behind those native to Ireland or any other country in which I may be seeking employment. And, to use Ireland as an example, there are and have been millions of Irish living in America. Yet, it is nearly impossible to emigrate to Ireland from America unless you have outstanding qualifications in the limited number of fields for which the Irish government deems there is demand for workers.

I realize my perspective may have no more validity than self pity, but it is frustrating to learn each time I research a new angle, that as an American citizen, there is no chance of obtaining an Irish work permit, yet if I were Australian, I'd be able to go live and work there for a year, I'd get priority if I were a UK citizen, and of course if I hailed from any of the EU states I'd be welcomed. Ireland is certainly not the only country to make being a US citizen with a bit of wanderlust an impossibility, just the one that I am familiar with.

por

gurramok wrote:

If they want to work in the US they should of went the legal way (visa thing!)

It's not that easy to get a 'visa thing!' these days. Some of the ways are

1. Green Card Lottery, Happens every year but only a couple of hundred given to Irish nationals
2. H1 Visa (work permit) Since the downturn in the economy (Hi-Tec in particular) very few companies are willing to sponsor these.
3. There are various other non-immigrant visa programs however none are large volume.
4. Marry an American citizen.

I believe it would be a bit harsh to deport Irish illegals en-masse. Most are you people who for one reason or another go to the US to do something different. Most go over in their 20s just out of school or college, with short term plans, they like the place and end up staying longer than expected. Most will eventually come home anyway, especially now that travel has got more difficult post 9/11, (It’s almost impossible to come home and go back after being illegal these days) As long as they are working, spending money and keeping out of trouble then are no problem. Also they are not a security risk. I believe the same is true for illegal immigrant’s here in Ireland.

gurramok wrote:

There is plenty of work for them to do here anyway.

Where?.
It's quite a culture shock coming back to Rip-off Ireland after being in the US earning good money working as a nanny, barman, construction worker etc.

However I can't see how asking for an estimate on the number of Irish illegals in the US would be any reason for concern. The US authorities have their own estimates and the Irish are not even on the radar screen