New EU member state workers flock to Ireland

Raskolnikov

I was sceptical about the government policy to open up our labour force to the accession states but it looks like it's paying off now. Not only are we getting some highly motivated workers but it looks like they're contributing to the economy too (Unemployment seems to be holding at about 4%). Fair do's to the government this time, they've gotten things right. The inflexible labour markets in France and Germany (they've restricted workers from accession countries) seem to be keeping unemployment high at just under 10% for both.

New EU member state workers flock to Ireland
06/08/2004 - 08:43:25

The number of workers from the 10 new EU member states seeking jobs in Ireland has increased dramatically since the expansion of the union last May.

Reports today said Government figures showed almost 23,000 people from the new member states had sought employment in Ireland in the past three months.

This is believed to be 10 times the number of work permits issued to people from the same countries in the first four months of the year.

Most of the workers seeking jobs in recent months were from Poland, Lithuania, the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

arcadegame2004

I would be very concerned at this.

23,000 in the first 3 MONTHS!!!!!

EQUALS: 92,000 per annum.

This is far more than the 15,000 that are supposed to have come to the UK since enlargement.

I am still holding fire with regard to the question of whether Ireland needs to join the rest of the EU (except Britain) in imposing temporary restrictions on freedom of movement.

If too many come in, then they might compete with Irish workers for jobs and constitute cheap labour more attractive as employees that Irish workers. We don't want a race to the bottom in terms of wages.

Not to mention too much more competition for housing.

On thing's for sure: With that number of people coming in we should abolish the non-EU workers work-permits. It is clear that any vacancies caused by Irish labour-shortages will be more than compensated for by Eastern European labour.

dangerman

EQUALS: 92,000 per annum.

I would assume that the massive influx will slow down...as we all know this is a new thing, and there would have been people in the accession countries waiting for may 1st to jump ship.

I think it will be a few years before an average annual figure & rate can be shown.

I think its a good thing, it's been shown time and time again that we have a skills shortage here. I am a *tiny* bit concerned that over time job competition will increase, but I think it should be ok as long as our economic growth keeps up.

Raskolnikov

dangerman wrote:

I would assume that the massive influx will slow down...as we all know this is a new thing, and there would have been people in the accession countries waiting for may 1st to jump ship.

It will slow down, most of the people already have jobs before they even set foot in Ireland. Once we start filling up our vacancies, there'll be less jobs on offer and thus less people will be able come.

arcadegame2004

It will slow down, most of the people already have jobs before they even set foot in Ireland. Once we start filling up our vacancies, there'll be less jobs on offer and thus less people will be able come.

Less will be "able" to come? The rights of these people to come here are not merely based on availability of work. They are based on freedom of movement. they can come here regardless. That is the present legal position.

I am incredibly angry with 13 of our EU partners for landing us in it like this. We are being forced - partly by them but mostly by our own Government - to bear the MAJORITY of the burden of competition for jobs etc. because our Government refuses to introduce similar restrictions on immigration from the new member-states like the rest except Britain have done.

How do you know that the majority of those 24,000 people already had jobs here? Evidence please!

gandalf

Well they aren't going to get unemployment unless they have been here 2 years if memory serves me correctly. 24,000 more workers paying taxes is great news. Its not like we are handing out Welfare cheques to them when they get off the plane at Dublin Airport now is it!!

Where is your evidence Arcade that the majority of those aren't in jobs, arcade?

dubhthach

The fact that we got a unemployment rate of only 4% should be of more interest then the number of people coming here, remember the bad old days of 20% unemployment, i've no problem with people coming here to work after all as gandalf said it's more tax payers if anything.

arcadegame2004

Where is your evidence Arcade that the majority of those aren't in jobs, arcade?

Well in today's front-page report on this by the Irish Times, there is a great sense that most of these people have come here since enlargement.

Example: PPS numbers. The number of Eastern European EU citizens applying for PPS numbers has shot up dramatically each month since enlargement. That would seem strongly to indicate that they were not here before enlargement.

I accept the need for some migrant workers. But we need to be careful to get the balance right. We need to ensure that it doesn't result in Irish wages being cut sharply due to competition from poor Eastern Europeans.

Most importantly of all, we must ensure that Irish people remain the majority in their own country. Our identity is far more important even than economic considerations.

Also, I urge the EU Commission to institute legal-proceedings against thr 13 EU states that are discriminating against the 10 new EU member-states by denying them freedom of entry.

BTW If the remainder of the EU removes their restrictions (that are supposed to be scrapped by 2009-11 anyway) then I will accept us allowing freedom of entry.

alleepally

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well in today's front-page report on this by the Irish Times, there is a great sense that most of these people have come here since enlargement.

Example: PPS numbers. The number of Eastern European EU citizens applying for PPS numbers has shot up dramatically each month since enlargement. That would seem strongly to indicate that they were not here before enlargement.

I accept the need for some migrant workers. But we need to be careful to get the balance right. We need to ensure that it doesn't result in Irish wages being cut sharply due to competition from poor Eastern Europeans.

Most importantly of all, we must ensure that Irish people remain the majority in their own country. Our identity is far more important even than economic considerations.

Also, I urge the EU Commission to institute legal-proceedings against thr 13 EU states that are discriminating against the 10 new EU member-states by denying them freedom of entry.

BTW If the remainder of the EU removes their restrictions (that are supposed to be scrapped by 2009-11 anyway) then I will accept us allowing freedom of entry.

Stop blathering on here then and go to Brussels with a placard and urge the EU commission to institute the legal proceedings. Such right wing clap trap makes me sick.

Hobbes

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Less will be "able" to come? The rights of these people to come here are not merely based on availability of work. They are based on freedom of movement. they can come here regardless. That is the present legal position.

newsflash you can move too if you want. Also I have heard a lot of Irish people buying up houses in some of the new member states as they are expected to skyrocket like they have here in Ireland.

arcadegame2004

Many of the Eastern European members of the EU have brought in restrictions on Western Europeans buying up land due to a fear of huge land-inflation. So there is limited scope to what you are talking about Hobbes.

Such right wing clap trap makes me sick.

Not right-wing. Many ordinary Labour Party members disagree with the party's liberal stance on immigration-issues. Indeed, an exit-poll in the citizenship-referendum found that 68% of their supporters voted "Yes", as did the supporters of Sinn Fein. Was this support "left-wing clap-trap"?

The exit-poll also showed very clearly that Irish people are determined that immigration into Ireland must be strictly controlled. I will wait and see what happens in the long-run but we must protect our identity against the leftwing ideology that spawned the rise of the far-right elsewhere in Europe.

chill

Hobbes wrote:

newsflash you can move too if you want. Also I have heard a lot of Irish people buying up houses in some of the new member states as they are expected to skyrocket like they have here in Ireland.

Exactly......... and how come those who are quickest to complain about a few thousand of our European neighbours coming to work are always the slowest to remember the MILLIONS we sent to the UK in the 20th Century both to work and to live on the dole...?

Our unemployment rate is effectively almost zero. Anyone who wants to work can work. We need these people to keep our economy growing so that our taxes can stay low and our jobs can be as high paying as they are.

The vast majority of these good poeple are working in low pay jobs that Irish people won't work in anymore beside.

Tuars

When I first read your sig...

arcadegame2004 wrote:

"The monopolists, by keeping the market constantly understocked, by never fully supplying the effectual demand, sell their commodities much above the natural price."
Adam Smith, famous economist (1723-1790)

...I took it that you were against monopolies and market protectionist economic policies. Then I read this...

arcadegame2004 wrote:

If too many come in, then they might compete with Irish workers for jobs and constitute cheap labour more attractive as employees than Irish workers.

...and it all became clear. You're not against the monopolists at all, are you. At least not on principle, anyway .

ionapaul

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Not right-wing. Many ordinary Labour Party members disagree with the party's liberal stance on immigration-issues. Indeed, an exit-poll in the citizenship-referendum found that 68% of their supporters voted "Yes", as did the supporters of Sinn Fein. Was this support "left-wing clap-trap"?

The exit-poll also showed very clearly that Irish people are determined that immigration into Ireland must be strictly controlled. I will wait and see what happens in the long-run but we must protect our identity against the leftwing ideology that spawned the rise of the far-right elsewhere in Europe.

Sinn Fein is not a "left-wing" party. They are masquerading (badly, as the huge majority of the electorate see through them) as socialists. Get the Brits out (without this core belief they are nothing) =/= socialist. Anyway...

The reason the vast majority in Ireland voted 'yes' in the election is that a substantial number of the yes voters voted to 'get the nigs out', as I heard dozens of times in the run up to the vote. Say what you will, we all know this was the reason for the overwhelming majority. Before anyone asks me, no, I do not have any proof of this!

We must protect our identity against the leftwing ideology that spawned the rise of the far-right elsewhere in Europe? Break that one down for us. We can't let the left-wingers drive the right-wingers into power by encouraging immigration?!! Damn you socialists for making the people vote for the nationalist fascists, damn you to hell!

How exactly will the immigration of Eastern Europeans damage my identity? I will remain who I am no matter who arrives in Ireland willing to work hard. Ireland has seen many waves of inward migration from pre-historic times, the only ones a tiny minority of people seen to have a problem with is the Scottish planters moving to Ulster 300 years ago (get out you Brits!), and the blacks, asians, and Eastern Europeans in recent years.

chewy

could you consider that alot of those people were already here and simply applied for work permits

Cork

I was talking to a group from Poland about a month ago. One guy was working 3 jobs.

He was a very qualified graduate. He was working 3 mimimum wage jobs. He was very happy to do so.

He missed home & wished the EU would bring the same benefits to Poland as it has done for Ireland.

The group had no interest in the Irish social welfare system. They come over here to work and not to sponge off the state.

some of the group I met are even setting up a business. They are both highly educated and inovative.

arcadegame2004

I never said that I am opposed to immigration from the new EU member-states. Nor have I said that it is certain restrictions will be needed. But if the trend continues at the rate of 92,000 per annum in the longterm, then the Irish people could be outnumbered in our own country. The exit-poll in the June 11th referendum made the Irish people's opposition to being outnumbered very clear. That does not make us racist. Shortly before the Citizenship referendumI was speaking to a Romanian recently who had been here on a work-permit before going home. To my surprise, he told me that he agreed with the referendum, adding that he would be very unhappy if Romanians became a minority in their country.

Raskolnikov

ionapaul wrote:

Sinn Fein is not a "left-wing" party. They are masquerading (badly, as the huge majority of the electorate see through them) as socialists. Get the Brits out (without this core belief they are nothing) =/= socialist. Anyway...

Sinn Féin motto, 'Building an Ireland of equals'

Socialism definition,
So´cial`ism
n. 1. A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme. See Communism, Fourierism, Saint-Simonianism, forms of socialism.

National socialism never called for the equal distribution of wealth so please stop trying to drag the Nazi's into this.

ionapaul

Raskolnikov wrote:

Sinn Féin motto, 'Building an Ireland of equals'

Socialism definition,
So´cial`ism
n. 1. A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme. See Communism, Fourierism, Saint-Simonianism, forms of socialism.

National socialism never called for the equal distribution of wealth so please stop trying to drag the Nazi's into this.

Socialism is not a sectarian movement, unlike Sinn Fein. It is an international one with little regard for national boundaries.

National socialism called for the removal of certain elements of society (Get the Jews out or Get the Brits out) by any means necessary. National socialism (and facism in general) repudiated pacifism (the Armalite and the Ballot Box, anyone?).

Sinn Fein are not socialist by action or by intent. You know this, I know this, most educated commenters know this. The closest they come to socialism is Stalinism! If they got rid of the private army (the national socialists had one of these too) and the 'Get the Brits out' mentality maybe their claim to socialism would ring a little less hollow.

Sorry for once again attacking Sinn Fein - I know that this is a thread-jacking offence.

Anyway, I welcome the immigration from Eastern Europe and beyond - we have a country that will greatly benefit from new cultures and perspectives. I have crossed (and will again) national boundries for educational and economic reasons, and I admire and greatly respect those who chose to do so, as so doing they are often bettering themselves. If we can't deal with the competition so be it.

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

But if the trend continues at the rate of 92,000 per annum in the longterm, then the Irish people could be outnumbered in our own country.

Well, anything that helps drown out your bleating is a welcome development. Every now and then you let the mask slip and reveal your Ireland for the Irish nonsense.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The exit-poll in the June 11th referendum made the Irish people's opposition to being outnumbered very clear.

Was that one of the questions asked? You've a remarkable ability to twist the words of others to suit your own argument.

Tommy Vercetti

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I never said that I am opposed to immigration from the new EU member-states. Nor have I said that it is certain restrictions will be needed. But if the trend continues at the rate of 92,000 per annum in the longterm, then the Irish people could be outnumbered in our own country. The exit-poll in the June 11th referendum made the Irish people's opposition to being outnumbered very clear. That does not make us racist. Shortly before the Citizenship referendumI was speaking to a Romanian recently who had been here on a work-permit before going home. To my surprise, he told me that he agreed with the referendum, adding that he would be very unhappy if Romanians became a minority in their country.

The "trend" won't continue, as you well know. You also know very well that we will never be outnumbered in our own country, that is a stupid, ridiculous thing to say.

dathi1

I own and run my own Electrical Contracting Company since 1989 and I've been involved in the construction industry since the mid 80's. I have never seen a situation as we have now where polish immigrant workers are now able to undercut Irish Skilled construction workers by up to 30%!!! In some cases where inspections are likely to be low, cash is being paid without prsi or tax contributions. Irish Construction labourers are the heart of the Irish Construction industry. They are multi skilled in Plastering, Cement + Concrete Mixing, Scaffolding, Plant + Machinery etc. Already I know of people up to their eyes with mortgages and kids at school over the past decade on countless projects, are now relegated to lower wages and or unemployment. I understand that most of the IT / Civil servant, guaranteed soft job brigade here will say so be it!! That's the market...but don't hold your breaths you're next 50,000 is what Harney's buddy's IBEC said...and that's her quota...any more than that and we're into let as many in as possible and force the average Irish worker into the begging for jobs scenario we had back in 1985.

sceptre

dathi1 wrote:

In some cases where inspections are likely to be low

Guess what my suggestion for that problem would be.

gandalf

daithi I'm not trying to be a smart arse but if you know the people doing this then shop them. I can guarantee this is going on because people in this country do not bother to report people breaking the law in this way. As Lou Reed would say "I'm sick of it" (or was that you! ).

The thing is that these Eastern European countries are where the major construction projects of the future funded by the EU will be happening. As usual Irish contractors will be over there getting some of that action as well.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

arcadegame2004

So the government should limit immigration to stop Irish people ripping the Government off?

Our right to be the majority in our own country is non-negotiable as far as I am concerned.

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Our right to be the majority in our own country is non-negotiable as far as I am concerned.

And that majority is not under threat, so stop scare-mongering.

spongebob

chewy wrote:

could you consider that alot of those people were already here and simply applied for work permits

Over half probably, lets see the numbers in the next quarter before we start worrying about the threat to Freedom and Democracy.

Anyway we will do whatever the UK does , as always. If they stop letting them in so will we.

M

arcadegame2004

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Our right to be the majority in our own country is non-negotiable as far as I am concerned.

Frankly I find that statement objectionable given the numbers in America and Britain that claim Irish ancestry.
Secondly tens of thousands of us went over to the U.S illegally for decades and many subsequently got green cards.
Not to mention the tens of thousands of us that regularally had to work in Britain because there was nothing but poverty here at home.
I don't see how you can claim to speak for everybody in relation to legal immigration from the new E.U countries.

You are speaking for yourself ( in a very borderline racist way in my view ) and probably others share your views but theres no evidence that , a majority of people want the new E.U immigrants to go home so you shouldn't be using the word "our" above.

ionapaul

dathi1 wrote:

I own and run my own Electrical Contracting Company since 1989 and I've been involved in the construction industry since the mid 80's. I have never seen a situation as we have now where polish immigrant workers are now able to undercut Irish Skilled construction workers by up to 30%!!! In some cases where inspections are likely to be low, cash is being paid without prsi or tax contributions. Irish Construction labourers are the heart of the Irish Construction industry. They are multi skilled in Plastering, Cement + Concrete Mixing, Scaffolding, Plant + Machinery etc. Already I know of people up to their eyes with mortgages and kids at school over the past decade on countless projects, are now relegated to lower wages and or unemployment. I understand that most of the IT / Civil servant, guaranteed soft job brigade here will say so be it!! That's the market...but don't hold your breaths you're next 50,000 is what Harney's buddy's IBEC said...and that's her quota...any more than that and we're into let as many in as possible and force the average Irish worker into the begging for jobs scenario we had back in 1985.

If the Polish workers drive down the wages of Irish construction workers - will the average house price come down in this country? If so, undercut away! The Irish contruction workers should thank their lucky stars they managed to have a few years making cash hand over fist for a 'blue collar' profession.

dathi1

Irish construction workers - will the average house price come down in this country?

wrong way around boyo! Its the construction companies and land rezone ownwers who make the massive profits on the housing industry. Do you really think that the extra profits made by big building firms on cheap Polish labour is going to be passed down to the guy buying the house??. In my experience with the building industry..not a hope.

So the government should limit immigration to stop Irish people ripping the Government off?

Irish people ripping the government off :eek: ...you make it sound like the average Irish construction worker is ripping off the Irish Government...which of course is complete bullcrap. Large Construction companies and IBEC (PDs) have a vested interest in making sure that there is a massive influx of cheap immigrant labour so that it can be an employers market. I have no problem with this to a point. we need to keep our competitiveness but I suspect that the 50,000 quota will be breached 3-4 times over before harney's mates in government express alarm.
Some people here have rightly expressed their views on illegal non EU immigration and EU exclusive immigration to Ireland and the UK. Some said we were scaremongering and that accession state immigration would be a trickle. The word Flood was NOT to be used. 28,000 so far is not a flood...its a torrent.

Frankly I find that statement objectionable given the numbers in America and Britain that claim Irish ancestry.

ok....so whats your quota....3-4 million went abroad...so lets see eh...3-4 million can come in....Jeeezus.