New EU member state workers flock to Ireland

Meh

dathi1 wrote:

28,000 so far is not a flood...its a torrent.

It's 23,000, actually. And 23,000 is less than 0.6% of the population of this country. Hardly a "torrent" (or even a "flood").

rob1891

I'm over in Poland working for the Summer, to balance this immigration out a little bit

All of the students I've met here have friends who've travelled to Ireland & England for look for summer work. The time this "immigration" is measured over is probably the peak influx of workers for any year and now instead of Austrailians we have Poles. There are 1.5 million students here, this is the first good oppertunity they have had to earn Euros legally and take some home for the coming acedemic year so I imagine a lot of them have decided to get the plane/bus to Ireland/England (yes bus, it's about 24hours I am told!!).

Also the article is comparing the numbers with people who found jobs though work permits for a completely different time of year to those that came here looking for work in the past 3 months. It's amazing how much of a debate you can have on a shitty breakingnews article, there's no information content there that anyone could draw a conclusion from. I guess the papers will have something more detailed tomorrow ...

DadaKopf

We must protect our identity against the leftwing ideology that spawned the rise of the far-right elsewhere in Europe? Break that one down for us. We can't let the left-wingers drive the right-wingers into power by encouraging immigration?!! Damn you socialists for making the people vote for the nationalist fascists, damn you to hell!

What a funny argument. It is actually the case that the left-wing in many EU countries have been advocating protectionist labour policies in their own countries. The actors primarily responsible for a more deregulated labour market in Europe have been the right-wing neoliberals and the social democrat crypto-neoliberals.

It's hard to see how your argument makes sense in the Irish context since Ireland's left-wing is both weak and highly fractionalized.

Sinn Féin and the Socialist Party, the 'traditional' internationalist socialist parties are so marginal that they have near-to-no impact on government policy. The Green Party, while presenting some policies that criticise systemic features of the political economy, are moving closer to the centre to maximise votes. The only serious left-wing party in Ireland is the Labour Party; however, their policies more or less concentrate on inadvertantly advocating FF's, PD's and FG's policy prescriptions. Whily they do criticise the neo-liberal aspects of the government's policies,and attempt to find ways in which economic prosperity can be combined with social responsibility, ultimately, whatever radicals who do exist in the party, they're ultimately limited in what they can do by the suffocating constraints the global market places on Ireland.

The Labour Party, too, has advocated open-border policies; while their moral justification is focused on social equity, that equity may only be achieved through economic growth, which is exactly why they advocate a liberalized labour market - why prevent poorer Eastern Europeans from benefiting from our prosperity?

And it just so happens that the Labour Party's and Green Party's policies comfortably fit with the government's policy (and business' desire) of opening up labour markets to improve economic growth (profitability), although the government's position is "growth at nearly all costs" rather than growth with equity.

So your argument is just plain weird: how can you even justify this comment about the Left in Ireland if (1) the Irish Left is highly marginalized and fractionalized and therefore has little effect on policy and (2) the Labour Party is more or less advocating right-wing neoliberal policies, albeit with a socialist sheen?

If anyone will be responsible for the rise of 'right-wing fascist-type' parties, it'll be the right-wing neoliberal parties themselves who steer us to that point because they ignored issues of welfare, equality and accountability in favour of national competitiveness and growth, and political survival at all costs.

The Corinthian

Raskolnikov wrote:

Sinn Féin motto, 'Building an Ireland of equals'

And GWB’s 2000 election slogan was “Compassionate Conservative”. Obviously I missed something.

National socialism never called for the equal distribution of wealth so please stop trying to drag the Nazi's into this.

Actually, in many respects it did amongst it’s citizens. While it did not ban private ownership, it did maintain a substantial public and social service system, funded through both high taxation (and slave labour). Citizens were guaranteed a certain standard of living as a result - as long as they qualified as citizens.

Raskolnikov

I see the American Republican party and Sinn Féin being dragged into this debate. If you want to make a thread about Sinn Féin, the American Republican Party and their connections to the Nazi's then by all means do so. But this thread is about how the workers of the EU ascension states impact on Ireland.

Getting back to Arcadegame's comments, I feel they're utterly wrong. We have a temporary labour shortfall which looks like it's been filled by migrant workers from the aforementioned EU ascension states. I imagine that a significant proporation of these immigrant workers will decide to remain here. While I would have very slight worries about our nationality being subsumed by the migrant workers I feel that we can incorporate these people into our society, thus making them as Irish as the British, Normans or Vikings, who came here over time, it's been the way of things for millenia, I don't see it changing anytime soon.

The alternative to our open labour market is to go the way of Germany or France and stop migrant labour from coming to the country (May I remind you that unemployment rate there is holding fast at 10% compared to our 4%). We may be protecting our jobs in the short-term, but in the long-term we'd only serve to drive them away.

So I ask you, should we go the way of the majority of the EU and restrict our labour market or should we take the dynamic and capitalistic approach that has served us well and implement the open labour market?

chewy

"I have never seen a situation as we have now where polish immigrant workers are now able to undercut Irish Skilled construction workers by up to 30%"
is it the polish undercutting the irish or the irish construction emploeyres undercutting the irish..?

the health system is a mass not cos of immigrants and a few asylum seekers it because of the government corruption

theres not enoug hhousing in the country nad rprcies are too high... this is not because of immigrant workers or asylum seekers.. it is because of the government and corruption

do you not think it suits the employers in construction retail and services industries to use illegal workers to bring down then standards in workplaces for all.. whos fault is that not the immigrant workers but the employers.... backed byt the government and its corruption so lay off the polish etc

The Corinthian

Raskolnikov wrote:

I see the American Republican party and Sinn Féin being dragged into this debate. If you want to make a thread about Sinn Féin, the American Republican Party and their connections to the Nazi's then by all means do so. But this thread is about how the workers of the EU ascension states impact on Ireland.

Maybe you should have thought of that before you decided to add to the off-topic discussion. The American Republican party and Sinn Féin are not as much being dragged into the debate as meaningless slogans, in general, are being debunked and ridiculed.

Raskolnikov

The Corinthian wrote:

Maybe you should have thought of that before you decided to add to the off-topic discussion. The American Republican party and Sinn Féin are not as much being dragged into the debate as meaningless slogans, in general, are being debunked and ridiculed.

I added to the off-topic discussion because I felt in my reckoning it was wrong. I should have ignored it, at the time I felt passionate enough to make my opinions known about the matter.

If it makes you feel any better, then I retract that argument, afterall, this thread is about EU migrant workers. How about you let your feelings be know on the matter of migrant workers?

Also as an aside to chewy . .

Asylum seeker/refugee = a person (generally) not legally allowed to work in Ireland.
Migrant worker from EU = a (generally) person with a legal right to work here.

I include the generally in parentheses' because I'm sure there are always exceptions to the rule. The problem with your post was that you were using the two terms interchangeably when they are quite distinct.

One thing I do agree with you on is that a little competition for Irish workers will do no harm. Not only will it keep our workers on their toes, but we can also address any labour shortfalls when they occur.

dathi1

One thing I do agree with you on is that a little competition for Irish workers will do no harm. Not only will it keep our workers on their toes, but we can also address any labour shortfalls when they occur.

Ok that's a fair point if you believe in grasping the uncontrolled labour immigration, dog eat dog, cut throat economics that benefits IBEC and big business etc...but truthfully...what's your Job status and will you be affected by this policy? If you're an average worker in construction or the service industry or similar, I accept that you believe that you should also take a pay decrease or a p45 to compete with your immigrant rival?

Just a reminder..I don't have a problem with "controlled" skilled EU or other immigration (temp work visas etc) to fill job vacancies where the market needs it...I do have a problem with our exclusive uncontrolled immigration from accession states and non EU illegal immigration in general.

chill

dathi1 wrote:

I own and run my own Electrical Contracting Company since 1989 and I've been involved in the construction industry since the mid 80's. I have never seen a situation as we have now where polish immigrant workers are now able to undercut Irish Skilled construction workers by up to 30%!!!

Well thank God for the Polish workers then ! It seems that these irish guys have been overcharging for years ! and no wonder the cost of houses here are astronomic !

In some cases where inspections are likely to be low, cash is being paid without prsi or tax contributions.

That's been going on for decades and is stil going on. And it's a characteristic of Irish workers (though not solely Irish) both here and abroad.

Irish Construction labourers are the heart of the Irish Construction industry. They are multi skilled in Plastering, Cement + Concrete Mixing, Scaffolding, Plant + Machinery etc.

Nonsense. It doesn't matter where labourers comne from as long as they can do the job. If they come from Poland or Hungary and do a good job at less cost then the Irish guys need to get off their arses and work harder or cheaper. Irish workers have been doing exactly that for decades in the UK, Germany and Spain.

Already I know of people up to their eyes with mortgages and kids at school over the past decade on countless projects, are now relegated to lower wages and or unemployment.

If that is so then it is unfortunate. But they have made a killing over the last ten years so everything comes to an end.

I understand that most of the IT / Civil servant, guaranteed soft job brigade here will say so be it!! That's the market...but don't hold your breaths you're next

With your sense of business,.... maybe it YOU that's next. And it's the IT jobs in this country that have driven much our economic boom and provided many of the jobs for your leabourer colleagues.

50,000 is what Harney's buddy's IBEC said...and that's her quota...any more than that and we're into let as many in as possible and force the average Irish worker into the begging for jobs scenario we had back in 1985.

If Irish workers were 'begging' for jobs that is because they did nothing to create jobs by themselves and expected someone 'else' to do it for them, and our economic boom was generated using EU money and better government that irish entrepeneurs and multinationals took advantage of and created the jobs to offer to those beggars.
if our economy is to avoid sinking backwards then we need thousands of immigrant workers every year from now on to sustain it for our own economic wel being.

In_Diana_Jones

dathi1 wrote:

Already I know of people up to their eyes with mortgages and kids at school over the past decade on countless projects, are now relegated to lower wages and or unemployment. I understand that most of the IT / Civil servant, guaranteed soft job brigade here will say so be it!!

As a member of the soft-job brigade, I feel it is my duty to ask, why did these people not foresee the influx of cheap foreign labour and prepare themselves? If I was given so many years notice that my job may be under threat then I may look at my debt and use my time wisely to get myself into a position where I was indespensible to my employer, or go out on my own.

Obviously these people are builders etc for a reason.

mmmmmmmm Hammer.....hit stuff...duh!

In_Diana_Jones

Raskolnikov wrote:

Also as an aside to chewy . .

Asylum seeker/refugee = a person (generally) not legally allowed to work in Ireland.
Migrant worker from EU = a (generally) person with a legal right to work here.

I include the generally in parentheses' because I'm sure there are always exceptions to the rule. The problem with your post was that you were using the two terms interchangeably when they are quite distinct.

I don't think you should be allowed make a post like this if you think an asylum seeker and a refugee are the same thing. Go do some reading you ignoramus.

An asylum seeker cannot work in this country, correct.

However, a refugee is a processed asylum seeker who is perfectly entitled to live and work in this country.

Zombrex

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Our right to be the majority in our own country is non-negotiable as far as I am concerned.

What exactly happens if suddenly there are 4 million Polish people living in Ireland?

I am being serious, what exactly are you fearfull of? You think we are going to suddenly find ourselfs a provence of Poland.

How is your life effected at all by Polish workers coming, legally, to Ireland?

Victor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Example: PPS numbers. The number of Eastern European EU citizens applying for PPS numbers has shot up dramatically each month since enlargement. That would seem strongly to indicate that they were not here before enlargement.

Utter poo. They were here all along, it's just they are legal now.

DadaKopf

Originally Posted by arcadegame2004
Example: PPS numbers. The number of Eastern European EU citizens applying for PPS numbers has shot up dramatically each month since enlargement. That would seem strongly to indicate that they were not here before enlargement.

Oh no! We're gonna run outta numbers!

gandalf

In_Diana_Jones wrote:

Go do some reading you ignoramus.
QUOTE]

You can get your point across without resorting to personal insults. You've been warned now. Do it again and I will ban you.

Flukey

Don't forget that us "Irish" are a mix of many races: Saxons, Celts, Normans, Vikings etc. etc. If a lot of those people hadn't come to Ireland we would not be here!

arcadegame2004

What exactly happens if suddenly there are 4 million Polish people living in Ireland?

The Irish people have made clear in the referendum-result (which you no doubt opposed) on citizenship, what their view is on this.

Have you seen "Blood of the Vikings" on BBC a few short years ago? It carried out DNA tests, looking for Celtic and Germanic (i.e. Anglo-Saxon and Viking) DNA in Ireland, Britain, and Normandy, with some surprising results.

In the DNA tests in Rush bear Dublin City, which was part of the Pale for centuries and the heart of British rule in Ireland for 800 years, which was generally seen as having as having been colonised greatly, almost NO non-Celtic DNA was found.

The same in Co.Mayo.

In the UK, Scotland surprisingly turned out to be mainly Anglo-Saxon/Danish Viking in its population's DNA map.

Not so surprisingly the majority of the Welsh have Celtic DNA, while 90% of Cornish people had too. Despite small traces of Celtic DNA is southern England, the genetic picture of the rest of England strongly implies that the former Celtic Briton majority there was exterminated by the Anglo-Saxon invaders.

Cromwell and the British-induced Famine ( a plot to wipe us out and don't try to deny it ) nearly wiped us out too. The state-planned plantation of hundreds of thousands of British settlers in Ulster led to the partition of our country, and centuries of violence and religious and political persecution.

Ireland has fought so hard for its identity for so long that we should apologise to no-one for wishing to maintain our ethnic-identity. To protect it does not imply hatred of others. Rather, it is to recognise the historic basis of the European nations, i.e. that each country is based on an ethnic-majority.

You only have to read a telephone book to notice how the vast majority of the surnames have Celtic origins. And many of those that seemingly don't are actually Anglicised versions of original Gaelic names, e.g. Collins was O'Coilean but British laws, especially passed under Charles II, banned the Gaelic form of many Irish surnames. We are basically a Celtic nation, admittedly with some intermixing. But persecution is what caused the assimilation and intermarriage of the Normans and the Irish. It is extremely unlikely we will be invaded again, yet we must protect our identity. Including our ethnic-identity.

Encouraging immigration for its own sake will only create an even worse housing-crisis that already exists. I empathise with those people struggling to pay mortgages that Daithi refers too. Despite having posted far fewer posts in support of our viewpoint in the Citizenship-referendum campaign debates on this forum, us two and some others were proven to represent the silent (and very large) majority on referendum-day, and we can take solace in that.

monument

Ireland has fought so hard for its identity for so long that we should apologise to no-one for wishing to maintain our ethnic-identity. To protect it does not imply hatred of others. Rather, it is to recognise the historic basis of the European nations, i.e. that each country is based on an ethnic-majority.

Is that a quote from BNP EIRE (SIC!)?

Because it sounds JUST like this...

Q: The politicians and the media call the BNP "racist"? Is this true?

A: No. "Racism" is when you ‘hate’ another ethnic group. We don't 'hate' black people, we don't 'hate' Asians, we don't oppose any ethnic group for what God made them, they have a right to their own identity as much as we do, all we want to do is to preserve the ethnic and cultural identity of the British people. We want the same human rights as everyone else, a right to a homeland, security, identity, democracy and freedom. We are not against immigrants as individuals. We are against a system which imports cheap labour regardless of the wishes of the host population. The British people were never asked if they wanted a multi-cultural society, immigration was forced on us undemocratically and against the clear wishes of the majority.

And leads to this...

Q: Why are you against mixed-raced relationships?

A: We are against mixed-raced relationships because we believe that all species and races of life on this planet are beautiful and must be preserved. When whites take partners from other ethnic groups, a white family line that stretches back into deep pre-history is destroyed. And, of course, the same is true of the non-white side. We want generations that spring from us to be the same as us, look like us, and be moved by the same things as us. We feel that to preserve the rich tapestry of mankind, we must preserve ethnic differences, not ‘mish-mash’ them together.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/faq.html


(I’m once again feeling physically sick after a visit to their site)

Flukey

A very simple task for any racist (though none of them ever admit to being so) that want people to be the same as them is this: Go out into the world and out of the over 6 billion people there, find just one single individual that is the exact same as themselves. Of course they will not be able to do it. As to our pure ethnicity, scientifically, every one of us is 99.9% the same genetically, so we are not all that different as some would like you to believe.

arcadegame2004

Where did I say I was against mixed-race relationships? I never said that. More leftwing hysteria of the kind that Irish people clearly see through, as the referendum result shows. The degree and extent to which the defeated Left in that referendum have made statements expressing their shame at being Irish only brings into sharper focus their lack of patriotism. Socialism is unpatriotic anyway so I shouldn't be surprised.

I deplore the BNP, especially what was revealed about them on a recent program. I am totally opposed to violence against people on racial grounds.

But then the Left feel that anyone who opposes unrestricted immigration is:

A:Racist
B:Fascist
C:The successor to the Nazis

In other words, they regard 80% of us as fitting into those 3 categories.

Crazy!

Zombrex

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Ireland has fought so hard for its identity for so long that we should apologise to no-one for wishing to maintain our ethnic-identity. To protect it does not imply hatred of others. Rather, it is to recognise the historic basis of the European nations, i.e. that each country is based on an ethnic-majority.

And I ask you again ...

How are you (or me, or our shared identity .. .what ever that means) directly effected by having 4 million Polish (or anyone else) people living and working in Ireland??

What are you afraid will happen?

Flukey

There are a lot more than 20% of the people that are "Left" of "Liberals" or whatever you want to call them. It depends on the issue and the spin put on some of them. The referendum result or any one other thing cannot be taken as a true indicator of where peoples politics lie, and there are more than just left and right. There is a fair amount in between. Anyone who opposed the war in Iraq was accused of being a Liberal or a Lefty and a lot more than 20% of Ireland did.

Meh

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Cromwell and the British-induced Famine ( a plot to wipe us out and don't try to deny it ) nearly wiped us out too. The state-planned plantation of hundreds of thousands of British settlers in Ulster led to the partition of our country, and centuries of violence and religious and political persecution.

Ireland has fought so hard for its identity for so long that we should apologise to no-one for wishing to maintain our ethnic-identity. To protect it does not imply hatred of others. Rather, it is to recognise the historic basis of the European nations, i.e. that each country is based on an ethnic-majority.

So you're asking us to believe that, after surviving seven hundred years of wars, repression, famine, emigration and ethnic cleansing, Irish culture will keel over and die when faced with a few thousand Polish brickies? You must have a very poor opinion of Irish culture, if you think it's so easily destroyed.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear what exactly is so bad about these Poles that makes them worse than the Famine and the Penal Laws put together...

arcadegame2004

I consider myself a Liberal (especially an economic neoliberal and in favour of gay marriage and the separation of Church and state). But liberalism sometimes involves choosing choose between competing rights (unlike Liberatarianism which involves wanting hardly any restrictions e.g. a liberatarian might demand the legalisation of gun-ownership and smoking in pubs), which right is the most important, e.g. I support the smoking-ban as I believe the right to health is more important.

And in that spirit I believe that the right of Irish people to be the majority in their own country supersedes the right of non-nationals to work here in unlimited numbers. I am not about zero-immigration, but we have a right to restrict immigration. I know of no country that allows unlimited immigration, do you? Are they all "racist/fascist etc."?

Allowing millions of people to come here would mean that the hard-pressed Irish person seeking housing in an increasingly crowded market would face vast more competition for housing. In this environment, resentment and support for the Far Right can only rise. Want evidence? Look at nearly all the European countries which formerly practiced liberatarian immigration policies, including the Netherlands, France, Italy, Denmark, Belgium and Austria, all of which have big chunks of their electorate voting for those parties, some of them in Government. I do not want that here.

Flukey

Have a look at my where are you on the political spectrum thread to see then.

As for "millions" of people coming here, that is not going to happen. Is Ireland such a wonderful place that that many people will want to come? We'll get some but there will be plenty going to other countries regardless of what their laws are on immigration. We are certainly not going to get enough to change the whole country. It would take a pretty huge influx to even cause a tiny ripple in our Irishness. Long before the Celtic Tiger there were plenty of people to be found all over Ireland that were not born here. Human life did not begin on this island we live on so we can all trace our ancestory back to outside this country, right back to the plains of North Africa where we all began, both you and all the Polish brickies.

Zombrex

arcadegame2004 wrote:

And in that spirit I believe that the right of Irish people to be the majority in their own country supersedes the right of non-nationals to work here in unlimited numbers.

What exactly happens if we are not the majority in our own country? I mean, seriously, what happens? Do we all suddenly have to speak polish?

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Allowing millions of people to come here would mean that the hard-pressed Irish person seeking housing in an increasingly crowded market would face vast more competition for housing.

But if there are no houses then people won't come to Ireland. You seem to think that there are enough houses and jobs to satisfy millions of immigrates. That completely ignores the natural balancing that occurs over time. If immigrants can't get housing and can't get jobs then why immigrate here.

Do you think we should stop Irish people immigrating to other countries to find employment, or that we should have "controlled" the immigration during the 80s

arcadegame2004 wrote:

In this environment, resentment and support for the Far Right can only rise. Want evidence? Look at nearly all the European countries which formerly practiced liberatarian immigration policies, including the Netherlands, France, Italy, Denmark, Belgium and Austria, all of which have big chunks of their electorate voting for those parties, some of them in Government. I do not want that here.

You think we should restrict immigration because it leads to racisim. Are you seriously making that argument :rolleyes:

Flukey

Unfortunately immigration does sort of lead to racism, but only through lack of education and plenty of misinformation. So it is wrong to say that immigration itself leads to racism. Even if there were no immigrants here there would still be plenty of people with racist views, another proof that it does not cause it. All it does is help racism raise its ugly head. Educating the people that are here not turning away those that are coming, is how to deal with racism.

monument

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I am totally opposed to violence against people on racial grounds.

Wow! So are the BNP...

Q: Where do you stand on racial attacks?


A: Racist attacks are wrong, plain and simple. The majority of racist attacks in this country are committed against white British people, contrary to the image that the anti-British mass media portray. If a race-attack takes place, and the victim is black or Asian, the result is an endless media circus, howls of condemnation against the perpetrators, and more calls for repressive crusades against supposed ‘racism’. If a race-attack takes place, and the victim is white, the result is usually total silence. No condemnation, no media fanfare, total silence. By contrast, the BNP condemns all racial attacks, including those on non-whites. It is not the fault of individuals that they are in our country, and the answer to the problems caused by mass immigration must be solved by democratic political change, not by violence.

dathi1

Just a quick reply to chill's quote above:
If you believe as stated that its "unfortunate" that Irish workers are to be disenfranchised, recipients of P45s etc, by uncontrolled immigration from accession states then fair enough! There are posts here saying we should let in 4 million polish workers...OK. Grand I see your arguments. You've lost the whole debate. Its everybody else first..and my fellow country compatriots second! You seem to come from the "open borders" hard left cult crowd you see at deportation demos. I'll stick up for Irish jobs first and then where it need be..I'd fill vacancies with immigrant labour in a controlled manner to placate the market on temp work visas.