New EU member state workers flock to Ireland

dathi1

in 1986 30,000 Irish people emigrated

So what? Is there a law or treaty somewhere that stipulates reciprocal agreements with other countries that we should have an open border policy because of hundreds of years of Irish emigration?...or do you mean we have some sort of pie in the sky moral obligation.

arcadegame2004

arcadegame2004 wrote:

OMG, not again. More distorting of what I said.


The KKK believe in racial-superiority of whites and they have killed many innocent people because of these twisted and fascist views. I hate the KKK and everything they stand for. Do NOT lump me in with them.

I see and since you believe Ireland is for the Irish you are picking us out as the only race entitled to live and work here with the exception of some necessary immigrants to fill the gaps...
Pretty darn similar to the core values of the KKK if you ask me

You've also mentioned problems with racial harmony... yet you have avoided the question about the white catholic Poles.
3 times you have been asked and 3 times you have ignored it because it seems, to do so would be to collapse what little ground there is under your "Ireland for the Irish" ideas.
Can as many of them come or are they the wrong race and will there be racial disharmony when they're here??
Theres loads of them working around me and out locally at the week end and I see no signs of racial disharmony.

MadsL

smccarrick wrote:

Mods- please close and lock thread, for obvious reasons.

S.

Mods please ban arcadegame2004 for obvious reasons.

Arcade, I still submit that your statement about the census:

arcade wrote:

"With 6% of the population identifying themselves as "not Irish" on the Census form in 2002, it is clear that the ability of the immigrants to assimilate is open to question."

is completely without supporting evidence or justification and as such is a statement that encites racial hatred. I cannot think of any justification for this statement other than a racist agenda and once again ask the mods to ban you until you can learn to make a point without slurring other races.

bonkey

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Oh here we go again! The tactics of the Left in the Citizenship-referendum are being used again, i.e. tarring all who favour restrictions on immigration as the most profoundly evil scum of the earth.

Please show where anyone has even suggested all who favour restrictions on immigration are the most profoundly evil scum on the earth or withdraw the remark.

I've asked you before to stop making stuff up. Now I'm telling you.

I will quite happily point out the facts that you so blithely ignore (as its about the easiest way of showing how irrational and ill-conceived most of your arguments are), but I will not - as a moderator - stand by and continue to allow you to libel other posters in this manner.

We need to have a DEBATE on this issue in Irish political life, free of the namecalling that we saw in the referendum-debate.

/me looks to the top of this post, where he is chastising arcadegame for name-calling.

/me looks back to the referendum debate posts, and sees that arcade engaged in pretty much the same practices then - misrepresenting what those who disagree with him actually said, making false allegations, and generally trying to tar people with whatever moniker he thought carried the most disdain at the time ("The Left", "The Far Right", and so on), all the time whilst playing the poor best-upon last-voice-of-reason martyr at the same time.

/me shakes his head at the apparent hypocracy.

If you are going to suggest that we need to have a debate on an issue without namecalling, then quit with the namecalling yourself while trying to discuss said issue. Doing otherwise makes you look like a prat, and its also not something I'm going to continue to tolerate.

jc

bonkey

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I consider the Irish-born children of mixed Irish-foreign marriages to be IRISH.

Whilst pointing out that if said person does not consider themselves Irish in terms of how they fill out a census, they are showing a key problem with integration and immigration, and a reason why something needs to be done.....

I am not an advocate of racial-purity or other evil doctrines.

Really? Then who is the "we" who need to maintain a majority in this country? If its not other ethniicities and/or races that we have to maintain a majority against, then what were you on about? And more importantly...if its not their ethnicity and/or nationality you object to...why do we need to maintain a majority "against" them???

What I am pointing out is the danger of fuelling, however inadvertedly, racist tensions in this country if we pursue unplanned immigration without sufficient restrictions.

I think you should also consider the danger of fuelling racist tensions (presumably equally inadvertantly) by the manner in which the issue is discussed and dealt with.

Throwing around made-up and misrepresented information to push an agenda which is - by your own admittance - for "our protection" hardly shows you to have a well-thought-out, balanced, reasonable stance, now does it?

After all, racist tensions aren't just caused by the racists. They're also caused by the reaction to perceived racism.

Our immigration-policy needs to have the needs of the Irish people foremost in mind.

Better start campaigning to get out of the EU then, cause otherwise what your proposing would - I believe - be illegal.

Patriotism requires that that be our primary focus.

No, it doesn't. Not until an actual threat has been defined. YOu haven't defined one - you've made one up through a mishmash of misrepresented facts and hopelessly flawed assumptions.

Our immigration-policy should balance the following aims:

A, B and E would all be in violation of our agreements under existant EU law. So...will you start campaigning to leave the EU, or just insist that the EU should allow each nation to "protect" itself against foreigners....which will include the other EU nations.

Or maybe its only poor foreigners we need to protect ourselves from...after all, the rich aren't any threat....but anyway.....

Funnily....we had the chance to "protect" ourselves in this manner against the new member-states. Our government chose not to implement such a "protection". And what was your reaction? Outrage at our government? No....outrage that we were "stitched up" by the rest of the EU doing exactly what you're saying any nation should do, and nothing said against our government for not doing it....

Yet another well-though-out, logically consistent position there, arcade. Bravo.

C, on the other hand, is just plain ridiculous. It is fear-mongering of the nature I'd expect to see in the US Presidential Election propaganda, not something I'd have honestly thought someone would present in whats supposed to be a rational discussion. And what happened to trying to avert racial tension....

"Hi, I'm not racist, but you're an arab and lets be honest...I'd be stupid to trust you as much as this caucasian that I've also never met before".

Yeah - a policy like that will go a long way to convince people there's no racial motives there. Once again - Bravo.

D is about the only somewhat reasonable point in there....and ties back to something I've been saying to you for over 6 months now, which is that having new rules which we enforce as pathetically as we do the existant ones will solve nothing. What we need to do as a matter of priority is make our system work, and then see where the real flaws are that need addressing.

jc

bonkey

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Excessive labour-competition from poor countries would cause a race to the bottom with regard to wages

No, it wouldn't.

I know it might not be easy to accept, but Economics 101 isn't terribly applicable to the real world. Things are a bit more complex than that.

as well as squeezing the hard-pressed Irish couple trying to buy a home even further out of the market.

More fiction. If everyone in the country is going to earn less (your theory), then no-one can afford to pay current prices, and thus prices will drop or houses will remain unsold.

Not to mention even more pressure on the Calcuttan Irish hospital-wards.

Said wards are the product of a health-system which has more paid per-head than anywhere else in Europe. The problems in our hospital wards are not a byproduct of any external pressure.

And while it is true that such pressure does exacerbate the issue, the numbers have been pointed to you before - repeatedly - and they are laughably small.

Are we supposed to shut up about this out of fear of offending someone?

I would have said you're supposed to shut up about it for fear of making yourself out to be either ill-informed, bigoted, or just plain illogical (or any mix of the three), but that's rarely a reason people seem to use for keeping quiet.

Are we to wait until the problem is upon us and only then try to figure out what to do about it?

No. We should wait until we can prove that the problem will be upon us, and in the meantime focus our attentions on other problems that we know are upon us (like the afore-mentioned vastly-overpaid-for Calcuttan hospital services).

If we are to promote interracial harmony in this country we need to ...

...stop saying things like that Muslims are simply not as trustable as anyone else because of the prevalence of terrorism in teh Muslim world???
...stop making up things and misrepresenting facts to suit an argument which can only succeed by playing on our fears rather than facts?

balance several considerations in framing an immigration-policy. We should reject the 2 extremes.

Well, gosh....thats genius. Why didn't I think of that.

Answer me one thing though...

Who exactly is this targetted at? Are you are under the mistaken belief that there is someone posting here that believes either of those two extremes is the solution? Has a single person suggested either of them???

Because arguing we need to reject these extremes would seem to either imply that someone has made a point to the contrary, or that you're just making a point that everyone already takes for granted...for some unfathomable reason. One would have though you had enough material to actually discuss on this thread, without having to bring up points that everyone agrees with anyway.

jc

sovtek

Wicknight wrote:

What exactly happens if suddenly there are 4 million Polish people living in Ireland?

Better, less expensive food I imagine.

The Corinthian

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Excessive labour-competition from poor countries would cause a race to the bottom with regard to wages

That's not really going to happen. Marx said much the same thing of Capitalist exploitation of wages too and it didn't actually happen. The price of labour, it turns out, is actually far less elestic than was thought.

arcadegame2004

Well I feel that the rise in unemployment to 5.1% is teatament to my warnings about the comparative unattractiveness of Irish labour compared to cheap foreign labour.

Originally posted by Bonkey[/I
]A, B and E would all be in violation of our agreements under existant EU law. So...will you start campaigning to leave the EU, or just insist that the EU should allow each nation to "protect" itself against foreigners....which will include the other EU nations.

I don't agree with you. Why should it mean leaving the EU? There was never going to be a flood of people coming from the old EU-15, because they are also rich countries. It is not foreigners per se that I object to. I simply object to Ireland and the UK being the only EU countries that aren't restricting immigration from Eastern Europe.

The_Conductor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well I feel that the rise in unemployment to 5.1% is teatament to my warnings about the comparative unattractiveness of Irish labour compared to cheap foreign labour.

I don't agree with you. Why should it mean leaving the EU? There was never going to be a flood of people coming from the old EU-15, because they are also rich countries. It is not foreigners per se that I object to. I simply object to Ireland and the UK being the only EU countries that aren't restricting immigration from Eastern Europe.

Ok- I'll address this in 2 stages-
Number 1:
First of all the unemployment rate- By the unemployment rate, I take it you mean the live register? There are seasonal employment patterns, whereby employment rises and falls in a particular pattern throughout the year.

The number of people signing on for unemployment assistance and benefit rose by just over 5% last month to just over 170,000, according to new figures.

Compared to July last year, the figure is down just over 4%, or 8,000 people.

The numbers on the Live Register normally increase in July as many workers in the education sector sign on.

Number 2:
"The old EU 15 are also rich countries...." There are large tracts of severals areas of Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece and even a few areas in France considered to be disadvantaged to the same degree as the most disadvantaged areas of some of the incoming states. Some of the incoming accession states have average GDPs well above the EU15 - Malta immediately comes to mind. What this sounds very akin to me is- you don't particularly care too much about the EU15- they have tonnes of money of their own, they're not going to come to steal our jobs- but you are worried about those countries who you consider to be worse off than ours- because given unfethered access to Ireland, and Irish jobs- its your patriotic duty to defend our shores against these invaders.........

How quaint......

How utterly ridiculous......

bonkey

arcadegame2004 wrote:

It is not foreigners per se that I object to.

No, just poor foreigners, trying to get the same break in life that the Irish got when we were in their shoes. Actually - no - thats not true. You don't mind them either, as long as its not Ireland they come to.

Nimbyism at its finest.

I simply object to Ireland and the UK being the only EU countries that aren't restricting immigration from Eastern Europe.

Well then direct your anger at those responsible - the Irish and English governments and our representatives in the EU. We - as nations - had the same opportunity as the other nations did to erect barriers. We chose not to (for reasons, incidentally, that are apparently the antithesis of what you believe should be done when it comes to helping emerging economies).

We were not kyboshed, shanghaied, conned or bullied into it. We were not abused, strung up, left out to dry, or shafted. We did it of our own free will, and yet its not the elected representatives of the people that you seek to blame.....nope.....don't blame those who made the decision.....its the rest of the EU who should be ashamed and who should change their ways. And why should they change their ways? Because an Irish citizen doesn't like what hte Irish government has done.

Of course, if you blamed our elected representatives, you'd then face the classic "well if the population agrees strongly enough they'll elect someone else" answer, which you know leaves you high and dry.

The population do not see this as a significant electoral issue, and that completely undermines your entire "patriotism demands" bullsh1t because if the majority don't want it, and the majority don't vote against it come election time....it kinda makes your exit-poll re-interpretations even higher and drier than they already are.

jc

egan007

dathi1 wrote:

So what? Is there a law or treaty somewhere that stipulates reciprocal agreements with other countries that we should have an open border policy because of hundreds of years of Irish emigration?...or do you mean we have some sort of pie in the sky moral obligation.

I think you missed my point
My point was that we (some people on this thread) are complaining about the influx of emigrants. This is the kettle sitting up once again getting ready to tell the poor pot in the corner of it's unforunate dark appearence.

The_Conductor

Far from this thread keeping to its remit - namely: "New EU member state workers flock to Ireland ", it has turned into a lets turn Ireland into a fortress and keep all those barbarians who want to steal our jobs, our money, our nationhood - out.

Any attempts to constructively address points made by the instigator and colleagues- have either been glossed over or ignored totally, in favour of blatant scaremongering and attempting to appeal to peoples basest fears about migrants. On a point of principle I am exiting this thread- as intelligence and reason appears to be absent. Given that this thread has utterly and totally strayed off topic and become blatantly racist, provocatory and defamatory in places, it should have been moderated and where applicable warnings or bannings issued. If this was a public forum, I have absolutely no doubt that there would have been warnings issued over clear incitement to hatred.

If anyone has disagreements with my interpretation of the inflamatory mess this thread is- by all means continue it- I'm stepping out.

Shane.

ChipZilla

dathi1 wrote:

Irish Construction labourers are the heart of the Irish Construction industry. They are multi skilled in Plastering, Cement + Concrete Mixing, Scaffolding, Plant + Machinery etc. Already I know of people up to their eyes with mortgages and kids at school over the past decade on countless projects, are now relegated to lower wages and or unemployment. I understand that most of the IT / Civil servant, guaranteed soft job brigade here will say so be it!!

Well, judging by the dwindling standard of workmanship I've seen in the building industry in this country in the last few years, I'd have no problems with labourers from elsewhere doing the job.

As for your comment about IT workers - don't be under any illusions. I've seen plenty of people I know in the IT world lose their jobs to cheaper labour in Eastern Europe and elsewhere, so quit making out like builders are the only ones who are hard done by. The Eastern Europeans/indians/etc will reach a point in time when they're being undercut by the Chinese. There's no such thing as a job for life, and in this day and age you can't be complacent no matter what industry you're in. So what are you going to do at the end of the day? Cry your eyes out that some foreigner took your job? Or get off your arse and improve what you yourself have to offer?

Best of luck to the Poles and everyone else in finding jobs. We did exactly the same thing elsewhere, didn't we?

And BTW I don't consider mixing concrete or putting up scaffolding skilled labour.

dathi1

Chipzilla...you're way off the mark and hot under the collar at the idea of accession state Immigration control similar to other European states being implemented in this country.
Standards of workmanship in most service industries is well regulated and its almost impossible for cowboys to operate. For instance in the Electrical industry we have 2 regulatory bodies the ECSSA and RECI who operate full random inspections all on contracts and customers can use this system to make sure the work is up to standard. A fair pricing system for customers is also on the cards. Other sectors in construction are also subject to strict regulation. So you don't know what you're talking about or you're talking about the 1970s.
You say there's no such thing as a job for life? I agree. so what?
If you go back and read the post I made on this thread you'll see that I welcome a controlled immigration system so that the market can adjust accordingly. Now as I've stated before IF you think that we should have an accession state open border set up as now. (which is relevant to this thread) ..and you accept that it should not be capped at any time now or in the future....and you accept you will take redundancy or minimum pay or a lower standard of living from such an anarchic system...then OK....what are you.. a landlord?

Meh

dathi1 wrote:

Standards of workmanship in most service industries is well regulated and its almost impossible for cowboys to operate. For instance in the Electrical industry we have 2 regulatory bodies the ECSSA and RECI who operate full random inspections all on contracts and customers can use this system to make sure the work is up to standard. A fair pricing system for customers is also on the cards. Other sectors in construction are also subject to strict regulation.

Wait, but back on page 1, you were telling us that the Irish construction industry has a big problem with cowboy employers and unregulated workers being paid under the table. You appear to be contradicting yourself here.

ChipZilla

dathi1 wrote:

You say there's no such thing as a job for life? I agree. so what?

So what? If you agree there's no such thing as a job for life why complain that "people up to their eyes with mortgages and kids at school over the past decade on countless projects, are now relegated to lower wages and or unemployment."

Who gives a sh*t if some poor builders might lose out to cheaper labour? I sure don't.

dathi1 wrote:

and you accept you will take redundancy or minimum pay or a lower standard of living from such an anarchic system

Bollocks. I've retrained in the past when things got bad, and could do it again if things went bad. I didn't accept a lower standard of living and lay the blame at someone else's door. What makes builders any different?

I don't believe in controlled immigration either. There's nothing wrong with competition, so bring it on. The country's not going to fall to rack and ruin...

MadsL

dathi1 wrote:

and you accept you will take redundancy or minimum pay or a lower standard of living from such an anarchic system

anarchic system, err...do you mean capitalism?

dathi1

Wait, but back on page 1, you were telling us that the Irish construction industry has a big problem with cowboy employers and unregulated workers being paid under the table. You appear to be contradicting yourself here.

A big problem...I said:In some cases where inspections are likely to be low, cash is being paid without prsi or tax contributions. This is a problem regulated or not right across all industry...and yes a colleague of mine informed of 2 particular sites where this has happened. They've been since shopped.

Bollocks. I've retrained in the past when things got bad, and could do it again if things went bad.

Ok...if that's what you want..and don't mind things getting bad...Ok again. I don't mind retraining either but I'd like the government to keep tabs on the numbers allowed in so that we all get a far crack of the whip.

I don't believe in controlled immigration either. There's nothing wrong with competition, so bring it on. The country's not going to fall to rack and ruin...

Ah......OK fair enough. I agree with the system in place in the rest of the EU and also the contorls in the USA and Australia to name a few. You want uncontrolled immigration and think that's great...good for you.

anarchic system, err...do you mean capitalism?

I don't think a controlled immigration market system is anarchic. Most capitalist economies are controlled by a number of factors...yeah?
So again...no attacks or calling people racists. No **** you how dare you propose something that the rest of the EU has..no loosing yourself in a sea of neo liberal political correctness gone mad. I'm just calling for immigration control to a certain degree from accession states....now relax...breed deeply..etc.

ionapaul

dathi1 wrote:

now relax...breed deeply..etc.

I always relax and breed deeply on a Friday night - with a little luck I'll be breeding deeply all weekend long...:)

Sorry for that!

MadsL

"no attacks or calling people racists..."

tell those who support your position to stop making racist arguments then...

arcadegame2004

We were not kyboshed, shanghaied, conned or bullied into it. We were not abused, strung up, left out to dry, or shafted. We did it of our own free will,

I don't consider the Irish Government to be "we". The results of the recent elections indicate neither do most of the Irish people.

In 2002, FF politicians that had called for tougher controls on immigration e.g. Noel O'Flynn, Ivor Callelly, were rewarded by topping the poll.

The issue of immigration IS an issue for the public. That is why the referendum turnout was 59%

The REFERENDUM on citizenship WAS the reason.

The exit-poll showed that there is huge opposition to liberal immigration-policies.

SMCarrick, your withdrawl from this debate, as far as I am concerned, together with your shrill demands for this thread to be closed, reflects, in my opinion, the insistence of the Irish Left that this issue of immigration not be debated at all. The only voices they want to hear and will listen to are the voices of those who agree with their outlook, i.e. open-door immigration. The vast majority of people I talk to though are VERY concerned that Irish people may eventually become a minority in their own country. We saw where those of an Irish-identity becoming a minority in NI led, i.e. to partition. We must not yield another inch to those who would demand separate states in this country. Our territorial-integrity is paramount and the people will not yield on such a fundamental benchmark of our identity and nationalism.

I am NOT racist. That smear tactic was tried in the recent referendum and backfired totally. If anything it harmed the "No" side, by making them appear arrogant and contemptuous of the views of anyone who disagreed with them. We are VERY firm and clear in our outlook. We welcome SOME here. We OPPOSE violence against those of a different ethnic, religious, cultural, or political outlook.

But our determination to remain the majority in the land of our forefathers, who fought for 800 years for an Irish Ireland, is undiminished.

BuffyBot

But our determination to remain the majority in the land of our forefathers, who fought for 800 years for an Irish Ireland, is undiminished.

You know, I found this line the most telling of all.

MadsL

shrill demands...

I'll ask you once again to explain your remark about the census then...and justify how that was not a racist remark.

As to spoiling the debate

"That smear tactic was tried in the recent referendum and backfired totally. If anything it harmed the "No" side, by making them appear arrogant and contemptuous of the views of anyone who disagreed with them. "

Free houses..??? remember that nasty piece of propaganda you were spreading.

"We are VERY firm and clear in our outlook. We welcome SOME here. We OPPOSE violence against those of a different ethnic, religious, cultural, or political outlook."

But we will smear their 'ability to integrate' because of a question about ethnicity, spread lies about refugees social welfare entitlement, threaten the end of civilization as a result of an end to a catholic white monoculture.

Who is 'we' ???

Go spread your muck somewhere else.

Victor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The REFERENDUM on citizenship WAS the reason.

The reason for what? I think you are rambling at this stage.

Victor

MadsL wrote:

Free houses..??? remember that nasty piece of propaganda you were spreading.

And think of all the Polish brickies we need to build those houses!

Raskolnikov

smccarrick wrote:

Far from this thread keeping to its remit - namely: "New EU member state workers flock to Ireland ", it has turned into a lets turn Ireland into a fortress and keep all those barbarians who want to steal our jobs, our money, our nationhood - out.

Any attempts to constructively address points made by the instigator and colleagues- have either been glossed over or ignored totally, in favour of blatant scaremongering and attempting to appeal to peoples basest fears about migrants. On a point of principle I am exiting this thread- as intelligence and reason appears to be absent. Given that this thread has utterly and totally strayed off topic and become blatantly racist, provocatory and defamatory in places, it should have been moderated and where applicable warnings or bannings issued. If this was a public forum, I have absolutely no doubt that there would have been warnings issued over clear incitement to hatred.

If anyone has disagreements with my interpretation of the inflamatory mess this thread is- by all means continue it- I'm stepping out.

Shane.

smccarick is bang on here, but it seems no one interested in listening, least of all the moderators.

therecklessone

Its taken two years, but finally I've managed to populate my ignore list.

Well done arcadegame2004.

arcadegame2004

Opposing liberal immigration-policies is not the same as being racist. Pointing out negative consequences of liberal immigration-policies is not racist either. A dispassionate analysis of the immigration question is needed and not a shouting-match based on "you're a this" or "hes a that" bitching.

MadsL

arcadegame2004 wrote:

A dispassionate analysis of the immigration question is needed and not a shouting-match based on "you're a this" or "hes a that" bitching.

And you are clearly not the man to do it. I doubt you could be dispassionate if you were freeze-dried.