Utd or Arsenal for the shield?

smemon

1st major game of the season tomorrow, both sides not 100%.

looking forward to it myself, even though its really a competitive friendly. fergie wont want any injuries with a tough week ahead, wenger wont want any either, his squad is fragile even when its fully fit and available. alot have little experience in the 1st team.

hopefully we'll have a physical game with a bit of drama, utd need the match to prepare for Dynamo Bucharest. the great thing now for utd is, we've got ruud and ole both injured yet we can still field a top class strikeforce in saha and smith. (forlan as backup).

eirebhoy

Arsenal are without Campbell, Vieira, Flamini and Henry (he'll start on the bench), Cole and Ljunberg are also unlikely to play. United are likely to start with the same defence that played against PSV, Neville-Silvestre-Brown-O'Shea. Fletcher and Scholes will also start. Man U have a CL match on Wedensday so will have an eye on that game. Its a tough one to call but I think United will edge it.

mayordenis

cant see the mancs winning. whos gonna score??

mike65

Don't give an arse either way but I'll go for Arsenal as they sound like arse! Or because they dont have a game midweek that they have to win to be sure of CL footie.

Mike.

Drag00n79

Don't give an arse either way but I'll go for Arsenal as they sound like arse!

Excellent, Mike65! Nice to see the calibre of football comment is as high as ever at boards

dirkey_wynne

Utd fan here, voting for the Gooners to win it. Mainly as I think Utd will have one eye on the CL game this week. But also as I'm superstitious and it's been about 7 years I think (correct me if I'm wrong) since a team which won the Charity Shield went on to win the league.

bizmark

dont care as long as its a good match

PHB

I think it'll be a get match, half second string vs half second string, it'll be good and well fought

celticfc

Arsenal to win, I'll say 3-1

mr_angry

Going by pre-season form, I'd have to say Arsenal. 4 wins and 4 draws. United by comparison have only one win, albeit with their second string most of the time. But then again, who are they going to field today?

Raskolnikov

Arsenal looking shaky in defence but deadly on attack.

Pepe LeFrits

Entertaining half, fairly even. I think Reyes has been Arsenal's best player, Cole & Cygan have also played very well, while Fabregas has looked very mature for his age.

BKtje

Twas an enjoyable half. Arsenal definitely started the stronger of the two teams but in the last 20minutes i think Man u came into it more and were actually stronger by half time. That said Arsenal should be leading, missed some glorious chances.

For the record i voted for a Man u win.

gandalf

So far 3-1

smemon

good match, 3rd goal killed it.

i know its a friendly but i'll criticise silvestre, he was dreadful. on at least 3 occasions he had the chance to tackle and cut attacks off before they started, instead he backed off and invited arsenal attacks on.

thats cost us dearly before and it has to be cut out. gerrard in the league cup was a classic example of not chasing down, its a weakness utd have. the sooner ferdinand gets back the better.

bellion 2 was a disgrace, all goals came down the right side and huge gaps were left there. he was allright going forward but didnt track back bar one occasion. sheer lazyness on his behalf with the pace he has.

i dont think arsenal were great today, utd were just poor.

mr_angry

Completely off-topic, I think quote of the day was:

Martin Tyler: "We haven't mentioned Viera much today, have we?"
Andy Gray: "Yeah, but he's not been here, has he?!?"

jesus_thats_gre

smemon wrote:

good match, 3rd goal killed it.
i dont think arsenal were great today, utd were just poor.

With all due respect, both fielded under strength teams and played alot of youngsters but United were attrocious.. Oddly enough, it was Arsenals youngsters, the same signings that you suggested were not up to the challenge in previous threads, that looked to be far more able than United's second string of Internationals...

The Arsenal youngsters played incredibly well and Arsenal supporters must now be fairly confident about the rest of the season..

smemon

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

With all due respect, both fielded under strength teams and played alot of youngsters but United were attrocious.. Oddly enough, it was Arsenals youngsters, the same signings that you suggested were not up to the challenge in previous threads, that looked to be far more able than United's second string of Internationals...

The Arsenal youngsters played incredibly well and Arsenal supporters must now be fairly confident about the rest of the season..

i dont think arsenal or their supporters have a problem with confidence. arsenal were gifted the goals by utd, the chances they created themselves they missed.

LegacyUser

As a utd fan, Utd were absolutely ****. Arsenal were brilliant. Simple as that. Fabrigas looks an unbelieveable talent. Pennant looks great too.

jesus_thats_gre

smemon wrote:

i dont think arsenal or their supporters have a problem with confidence. arsenal were gifted the goals by utd, the chances they created themselves they missed.

So you are basically stating that Arsenal created many chances themselves but missed and Uniteds defence then gifted them even more oppurtunities that they eventually scored... Not a good day at work at all...

Arsenal's two chances at the beginning of the second half carved United in two and highligted an obvious disparity in quality between Arsenals second string (some as young as 17 and others in their first ever season in English football) and United's second string (some of which are "proven" international players) team..

As a Liverpool supporter I am obviously biased but I would be slightly concerned for the future. Smith's finish was brilliant however. Scholes seemed to be back to his old self too which is good. Its strange that United now have one of the best forward lines on paper but the reast of the squad seem lacking.

robbie1876

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

Arsenal's two chances at the beginning of the second half carved United in two and highligted an obvious disparity in quality between Arsenals second string (some as young as 17 and others in their first ever season in English football) and United's second string (some of which are "proven" international players) team..

Well said. I was a tad worried about the team Arsenal were putting out, but they showed great team spirit, determination and lots of flair. Pennant, Reyes and Cygan were the most impressive of the second stringers for me.

Some great goalkeeping on both sides, particularly Howard's reaction save to Henry's snappy left footed shot. Smith's finish was sublime, but he was poor otherwise, his touches were letting him down all over the place.

smemon

just noticed someone voted after the match was over for arsenal. :rolleyes:

jesus_thats_gre

smemon wrote:

just noticed someone voted after the match was over for arsenal. :rolleyes:

juest fior your eyes

LegacyUser

What a tough week...Arsenal today, CL on Wednesday and Chelsea next sunday!!!

Can you imagine the tabloids for Mourinho and Ferguson if they lose next sunday?

Villain

The hot name for this season is Reyes! he was brilliant and from the reports I've heard he done really well in pre-season. Arsenal were another class today, they could have had at least another 3 goals.

United will obviously improve when Ferdinand, Ronaldo, Heinze, Saha and RVN return but Arsenal can keep Veria they win the league easy. The quality of youngters coming through at highbury is scary.

Oh yea what was up with Roy today? he seemed to be out of the game most of the time on the other hand Djemba played a decent game

Big Ears

smemon wrote:

just noticed someone voted after the match was over for arsenal. :rolleyes:

well 2 people have now voted for Arsenal since the match was over (people always do this on whos going to win polls )

but supriseingly 1 person voted for Man United since the game was over .

elbow316

lol @ Cesc getting the better of Keane in midfield. Unbelievable to think he's only just turned 17, he's gonna be top class.

cournioni

I thought United performed alright. They were ok for alot of the game which I was expecting them to be. But then the defence was literally a mess in the second half. The sooner Rio and Heinze are back the better. No one in the defence seems to be able to organise it properly, Gary Neville is the only one that comes to mind when organising the defence and it didn't seem to happen at all today. I reckon United should stick Keano in there until Rio and Heinze are back.

LegacyUser

Utd look messy. I do not have a lot of confidence in them. Smiths strike was the only thing I was impressed with along with Djemba and Scholes. Arsenal shredded us. Reyes was terrifying.

Its great to say the sooner the better Ronaldo/Ferdinand/Heinze/RVN/Saha are back.

The point of the matter is: Ronaldo will not be playing until November if recent reports are to be believed since he will be wrecked from Euro 2004 and now the Olympics. Heinze will be back around then too. Ferdinand is back the 20'th September. RVN is back about then too if all goes well with his injury treatment. In all fairness, it is scary.

If Giggs is injured which is going to happen, we have nobody to replace him, we have physical bodies like Richardson and Fortune but nobody decent in my opinion.

I have no confidence in O Shea. Silvestre is extremely dodgy. Can be amazing one game and brutal the next.

Also, Mind Games are great when you are ahead, but they just look pathetic when you are not winning.

No disrespect to Sir Alex, the man is a legend but I do not have a lot of faith in Man Utd. I hope they prove me wrong.

As for Arsenal, you can get Vieira right now and **** him out the window. Fabregas that 17 year old beauty, was unreal today. The talent in Arsenal is incredibly satisfying to watch.

LegacyUser

PS: One thing is for sure. This season is going to be extremely good.

Big Ears

all those times of me and Kaids trying to convince Smemmon(and others) of the quality of Arsenals's youngsters was worth it , as they proved themselves today . (even if Smemmon still refuses to beleive they're good players) .

Reyes definetly looks like he will shine this season , and he definetly deserved the man of the match award .

Fabregas had shown his class , and I should probably stop know as im going over old ground .

Arsenal moved the ball very well today and they're pace cut United to shreds .

and to think some United fans said Arsenal didnt have a big enough squad . :rolleyes:

jesus_thats_gre

Big Ears wrote:

all those times of me and Kaids trying to convince Smemmon(and others) of the quality of Arsenals's youngsters was worth it , as they proved themselves today . (even if Smemmon still refuses to beleive they're good players) .

and to think some United fans said Arsenal didnt have a big enough squad . :rolleyes:

It was pretty much the world versus Smemon on that one Big Ears...

PHB

I dont think either side were particuarly impressive today.

I know you can say Arsenal youngsters shined but seriously, againist Man Utd's defense today Watford's youngsters would have shined.
Hopefully they will be given chances during the year to shine and make it into full time premiership football.
Reyes was very very very good today, great great pace and skill, just needs to work on his final touches.
I thought Arsenal were a bit weak in the centre of defense without Campbell, I think some cover is needed there besides a youngster, a solid squad player like Phil Neville who can step in anywhere if you need him to.
Henry was ****, did nothing, got two nice shots off but nada else.
Berjkamp was ok, but is obivously getting old and aint the player he used to be.
Pennat was pretty good I thought, battled hard.
Centre midfield was lacking in skill today. They did well verus a battling midfield, but in europe they need to get some skill, a replacement for Vieira is definally needed.

As for Man Utd the only people who were good today were Scholes and Howard.
Slyvestre looked ****, he doesn't like having to organise stuff in defense and it takes awya from his game, once Rio gets back he'll be back to himself.
Gary Neville was terrible, which is unusual because normally he has great great composure and its unlike him to be unstable.
O'Shea was ****, like wtf has happened to him? No wonder Fergie has bought Heinze, he was so good in his first season but now like wtf?!
Keane wasn't giving it his all at all at all, but didn't play particuarly bad, just didn't command the game like he should have.
Double D was ok, but still showed lack of experience in distribution.
Smith was ok, nice goal, nada else.
Forlan go away please
Giggs average preformance

United had no goal scorer out there today and it showed.
The chances that fell fell to people who couldn't finish it.
Saha and Van Nist, come together be strong!
Giggs is looking weaker and weaker every year, needs some competition.
Keano and Scholes in the centre should preform if Scholes just got a chance to play there.
Ronaldo is looking fantastic.
Heinze - Rio - Slyvestre - Neville if they could all just play would be great.

Unimpressive from both sides, but a much deserved win for Arsenal.
Will it be 8 years in a row?

Big Ears

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

It was pretty much the world versus Smemon on that one Big Ears...

true but we we're argueing more than most .

smemon

one game doesnt transform players overnight into world class brilliance.

no vieira, no leadership. all that 'talent' will go to waste. arsenal aren't the same without him and to me they missed him yesterday.

2ndly reyes should have added another to the goals, plus his final touch let him down more than once. fabregas deserved motm.

arsenal aren't scary after yesterday, they were playing a poor side on the day. once the season starts dont expect arsenal to walk all over everyone. right from everton, arsenal will be tested to the limits. in times of need when the going gets tough they'll crack up if they dont find a true captain.

utd were poor yesterday as ive said before and i criticised them especially their defence, its not too often i do that but it was a very poor 2nd half from them. utd were below normal yesterday, arsenal just caught them on a bad day.

i wouldnt get carried away just yet.

yop

"but supriseingly 1 person voted for Man United since the game was over "

I did for the crack!

We were crap today very poor at the back, I think JOS has gone back a lot and this playing 1 up front with scholes in the hole did not work last year but again he tries it!

Arse were very impressive especially Fab and Reyes, 2 for the future.

united need all there big names back.
This will be a crackin season

jesus_thats_gre

PHB wrote:

I dont think either side were particuarly impressive today.

I know you can say Arsenal youngsters shined but seriously, againist Man Utd's defense today Watford's youngsters would have shined.
Hopefully they will be given chances during the year to shine and make it into full time premiership football.
Reyes was very very very good today, great great pace and skill, just needs to work on his final touches.
I thought Arsenal were a bit weak in the centre of defense without Campbell, I think some cover is needed there besides a youngster, a solid squad player like Phil Neville who can step in anywhere if you need him to.
Henry was ****, did nothing, got two nice shots off but nada else.
Berjkamp was ok, but is obivously getting old and aint the player he used to be.
Pennat was pretty good I thought, battled hard.
Centre midfield was lacking in skill today. They did well verus a battling midfield, but in europe they need to get some skill, a replacement for Vieira is definally needed.

I actually disagree with alot of your statements.. United's defence contained 2/3, depending on if you consider O'Shea a first team player, members of United's first choice defenders. The only person missing was Ferdinand. if you are discounting Arsenal's victory and the performance of their youth players because of this, you are wrong. Gary Nevilles performance yesterday is typical of what he has become, he is bordering on useless without Ferdinand on the pitch. The same applies to Silvestre in the centre and I can't understand what the story is with O'Shea (another season like last and he will be sold me thinks).

As I said in a previous post, both clubs fielded squads that were missing 3/4/5 first team players. Arsenals backup players are a bunch of teenagers with little experience and Bergkamp. United's backup players were Djemba Dejemba, Smith, Fortune and Phil Neville to name a few, most of these are experienced internationals and some even come with hefty transfer fees attached.

Yet Arsenals teenagers were able to dismantle United on numerous occassions. This is a big deal in my opinion and the performance should not be discounted because they were second string teams. These are the players who are going to be coming of the bench to replace the first team players for the whole season.

Bergkamp had an excellent game. While has slowed somewhat, he still has incredible vision and the ability to play some beautiful passes. Players of his ability do not need fitness or speed in order to play well, he could win a game without breaking a sweat.

Reyes has an incredible game... To say Ronaldo is the most exciting prospect at the moment is an insult to Reyes. He is a more polished player than Ronaldo and while the final product can be lacking, it is more advanced than that of Ronaldo.

As you said, Campbell was missing. Between Campbell and Viera, they make up the defensive spine of Arsenal. Arsenal were missing both these players while United were only missing Ferdinand, yet Arsenal managed to cope a whole lot better than United were able too. And they have Phil Neville already... Cygan seemed to be far more comfortable compared to last season and Toure seems to have retained his form from last season.

To say Henry dont nothing is overly critical. He made a number of runs and while the end product was evident, he scared the **** out of Neville a few times.

The experienced player in the centre for Arsenal was the world cup winner, Gilberto. He scored one of the goals and laid of Reyes for the other. Even though you cant help but question his performances normally. Fabrigas is 17, nuff said. Yet he and Gilberto outperformed Keane and Djemba Djemba..



I mean the Six first choice (possibly in this order) defenders for United are:
- Ferdinand
- Neville
- Silvestre
- Heinze
- Brown
- O'Shea

The defence as a whole is very able when Ferdinand is available but there are an embarrasment without him. Ferdinand will be back soon after missing 5 to 6 weeks worth of the league. When he is back, United will be title contenders, until then you cant help but wonder how close they can stay to Chelsea and Arsenal while he is not available. That is unless Heinze is something special.

jesus_thats_gre

Look at both Squads...

Before yesterdays game, who had the better first team on paper and who were the most experienced?

Arsenal:

Lehmann
Lauren
Toure
Cygan
Cole
Pennant
Gilberto
Fabregas (Svard 87)
Reyes (Hoyte 80)
Bergkamp (Aliadiere 61, (Clichy 69))
Henry (Van Persie 45)

Subs Not Used: Senderos, Almunia.



Man Utd:

Howard
Gary Neville
O'Shea (Spector 82)
Silvestre
Fortune (Phil Neville 51)
Bellion
Keane (Fletcher 51)
Djemba-Djemba
Giggs (Forlan 51)
Scholes (Richardson 74)
Smith (Eagles 73)

Subs Not Used: Carroll.

smemon

van persie did nothing. (that means he's a waste of space and should be offloaded) hardly kicked the ball. henry did nothing, dived looking for a peno. (sell him to chelsea). arsenal make immediate decisions on a few youngsters based on one game yet by the same logic should be slating the ones that didnt perform.

when utd scored the equaliser, arsenal looked extremely nervous and couldnt get the ball. they were put under severe pressure and utd looked very dangerous. had arsenal not score the 2nd, im almost certain utd would have dominated.

so when the season gets underway, arsenal wont go ahead in very game get afew lucky breaks and have everything all rosey. what happens when they go behind? didnt look like they could control the game yesterday to me, only when they went 2-1 up and utd had thrown on all their subs.

as phb said, both sides weren't great and neither came out faultless.

Villain

smemon wrote:

van persie did nothing. (that means he's a waste of space and should be offloaded) hardly kicked the ball. henry did nothing, dived looking for a peno. (sell him to chelsea). arsenal make immediate decisions on a few youngsters based on one game yet by the same logic should be slating the ones that didnt perform.

when utd scored the equaliser, arsenal looked extremely nervous and couldnt get the ball. they were put under severe pressure and utd looked very dangerous. had arsenal not score the 2nd, im almost certain utd would have dominated.

so when the season gets underway, arsenal wont go ahead in very game get afew lucky breaks and have everything all rosey. what happens when they go behind? didnt look like they could control the game yesterday to me, only when they went 2-1 up and utd had thrown on all their subs.

as phb said, both sides weren't great and neither came out faultless.

LOL Can you post that without the Red Tinted Glasses?

smemon

irish1 wrote:

LOL Can you post that without the Red Tinted Glasses?

very original.

Big Ears

so you're saying(Smemmon) if Arsenal hadnt been able to score goals United would have one and been the better team .

Could someone as in a smiley with red tinted glasses ? .

Its like saying we got bet 8-1 today but if they hadnt scored any goals we would have been the better team .

sometimes im just speachless because of you're remarks.

Pepe LeFrits

smemon wrote:

very original.

I don't think his post required originality, its functionality was the more important aspect and I think it conveyed the sentiment of a lot of posters here very well!

cournioni

I think what smemon meant was that Arsenal scored at a vital time when United were on top and a bad defensive lapse caused it. And the fact that United brought on so many young subs at that point meant that they didn't have the firepower to go on and win the game from there. I think that if United hadn't to have made those changes the game would have ended up a draw. And we may have been looking at penalties.

By the way, I think Jonathan Spector will break into the United starting line up fairly soon. He looks very comfortable in posession and is a very solid and clean tackler.

Big Ears

PORNAPSTER wrote:

.

By the way, I think Jonathan Spector will break into the United starting line up fairly soon. He looks very comfortable in posession and is a very solid and clean tackler.

agreed and at the expense of John O'Shea aswell .
Its up that beinga second/third choice player for United hasnt given John the kick up the Arse he needs to get back playing the way he did in his first season .

smemon

yeah im saying arsenal got one or two lucky breaks which took away from their downfall after utd equalised. which is something negative with their performance.

i suggest everyone else take of the 'red tinted glasses' if you think arsenal played the perfect game. play the same way they did on sunday week in week out and you can wave goodbye to the title and europe.

Villain

smemon wrote:

yeah im saying arsenal got one or two lucky breaks which took away from their downfall after utd equalised. which is something negative with their performance.

i suggest everyone else take of the 'red tinted glasses' if you think arsenal played the perfect game. play the same way they did on sunday week in week out and you can wave goodbye to the title and europe.

Add Peres Ljunburg and Campbell and I think Arsenal will win the league by 10 -12 points, oh and Veria if he stays.

jesus_thats_gre

smemon wrote:

i suggest everyone else take of the 'red tinted glasses' if you think arsenal played the perfect game. play the same way they did on sunday week in week out and you can wave goodbye to the title and europe.

Never said Arsenal played the perfect game.. What I am basically saying, is that considering Arsenal went unbeaten the whole of last season and have made some quality long term additions to the squad, I can't see them loosing any ground to United. Chelsea are Arsenals make threat this season. United have added nothing that makes you stand up and take notice.

gandalf

LOL I love these conversations. FFS its the Charity (err Community) Shield. In reality it means nothing. Yeah its great to have beaten United but at the end of the day its the paperweight of trophies.

Oh by the way smemon we could also say if Arsenal had put away some of the easier chances they missed united may have lost by a cricket score

mr_angry

smemon wrote:

yeah im saying arsenal got one or two lucky breaks which took away from their downfall after utd equalised. which is something negative with their performance.

i suggest everyone else take of the 'red tinted glasses' if you think arsenal played the perfect game. play the same way they did on sunday week in week out and you can wave goodbye to the title and europe.

Personally, the only negative point I saw in Arsenal's performance was Cygan's compulsory loss of concentration that led to United's goal. Apart from that, it was faultless. Yeah, perhaps we could have added a couple more goals from easy chances, but that's the kind of thing that improves with match sharpness anyway - certainly nothing to worry about.

Perhaps we wouldn't win the Champions League with that kind of performance, but we didn't need that kind of performance on Sunday. You can only beat what's put in front of you. And on Sunday, we comfortably beat England's 3rd best team whilst missing a horde of easy chances. (Both teams were under strength, so I think the statement is valid.) So far, the team were set the task of beating United. They passed with flying colours. Simple as that.

Sure, maybe they wouldn't beat AC Milan in a competitive match tomorrow. But maybe they can raise their game. The point is, you don't really know. I wouldn't start rubbishing them just yet - you might regret it at some stage in the future.