[Article] Dublin Interconnector

Andrew Duffy

@maxheadroom - The tram proposal is to run the Airport "metro" along the old Swords Bypass, and IÉ doesn't have a suggested route, so the map might be closer if you swapped the lines North of the Airport. Also, there's supposed to be a station at DCU but the line is too far west. Have you seen this article?

http://www.crannog-software.com/ad/airport_metro_sunday_times_29_feb_2004.gif

@EvilDoctorK - The broadstone alignment was part of the original DTO Sandyford-Airport line, which would have gown down it and then swung sharply East and underground towards the Rotunda and on to Connolly station. I made a mistake when I said the current proposal uses the city centre section of the DTO line; it doesn't so Broadstone will remain unused.

sliabh

P11 Comms wrote:

One important point about the Metro = it will do nothing really to address the traffic problem as the traffic is not caused by people in Dublin but by the residents of West County Dublin, Meath, Kildare, Carlow, Wexford, West Meath and Wicklow.

I beg to differ. Until the Luas started I was driving to work. And most the people I work with in Sandyford live in the city and drive to work. Most of my friends would say the same thing. I have only ever met a small number of people that come into the city from outside the county. I know of more people that commute the other direction!

P11 Comms wrote:

The Metro is the snowjob, the Interconenctor is the answer.

The interconnector is (as you said yourself) a GDR thing. But there are large numbers of people in the city right now that need the metro and the interconnector won't help them.

You mention people across Europe driving to their station and getting a train. Most of the Germans I know walk to their metro and don't need a car at all. Indeed I worked with a French woman recently who was in her 30's and didn't know how to drive as she lived in Paris all her life and never needed to. (Someone has seen fit to give her a company car in Ireland :-)

I'd rather spend the money bringing one system from 20% to 60% capable than bringing another from 70% to 95%

maxheadroom

sliabh wrote:

I have only ever met a small number of people that come into the city from outside the county. I know of more people that commute the other direction!

If this were an accurate representation of the situation "on the ground" there would be no major conjestion on roads into Dublin from "satelite towns" on weekday mornings. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

sliabh wrote:

The interconnector is (as you said yourself) a GDR thing. But there are large numbers of people in the city right now that need the metro and the interconnector won't help them.

GDR includes the city centre - after all, that's where these people want to go. So in the process of serving the outside bits of the GDR, you also serve the more inner bits that also have track running through them, but where rail services have never been used because of the low frequency, low reliability, and lack of capacity. The further in you get, the more "remote" lines are feeding into the track in these areas so you get higher frequency. Its a bit like how the bus service works, except with rail you don't have to worry about sitting in traffic.

sliabh wrote:

You mention people across Europe driving to their station and getting a train. Most of the Germans I know walk to their metro and don't need a car at all. Indeed I worked with a French woman recently who was in her 30's and didn't know how to drive as she lived in Paris all her life and never needed to. (Someone has seen fit to give her a company car in Ireland :-)

Most Germans I know live in cities that were subject to massive rebuilding after the 1940's and were developed around proper planning guidelines involving high density corridors of development clustered around rail. The same cannot be said of Ireland. Also, it is an unfair comparison to compare a city like Paris, which has to move many times the population of Ireland each day, with a small city like Dublin. If you must, make comparisons with Helsinki/Vantaa/Espoo in Finland or Stockholm in Sweden (a little on the large side though). Compare like with like.

sliabh wrote:

I'd rather spend the money bringing one system from 20% to 60% capable than bringing another from 70% to 95%

What system is at 20%?

By the way, I'm not anti-metro. I just think we'd be in a much better position to incorporate some kind of useful metro if we sort out our heavy rail system first. I also think that sorting out our heavy rail system will give us most if not all of the benefits of the current metro proposal which will then leave us free to design a proper metro system (even if its one line bi-radial) that will actually serve the parts of the city which have been neglected with regards to public transport infrastructure.

Hecate

To build an effective metro system for dublin that would deliver the benefits you describe, would cost...how to put this, more money than you can possibly imagine!

European cities started building their metros in the 50s, 60s and 70s (of course even earlier in the case of paris - 1900 - and london in the 1860s). So they have been constantly developing over the intervening years.

We're starting from scratch here, and the interconnector is a great place to start. A lot of people want it all, and they want it now..ain't going to happen folks. The interconnector is the beginnings of a metro for dublin, and a good beginning at that.

maxheadroom

Andrew Duffy wrote:

@maxheadroom - The tram proposal is to run the Airport "metro" along the old Swords Bypass, and IÉ doesn't have a suggested route, so the map might be closer if you swapped the lines North of the Airport. Also, there's supposed to be a station at DCU but the line is too far west. Have you seen this article?

http://www.crannog-software.com/ad/airport_metro_sunday_times_29_feb_2004.gif

Yes, that's where I got the shap of the metro line from. Unfortunately I seem to have misplaced DCU when drawing the full dublin map. Fixed now.

I wasn't aware of any planned alignment for the lines to swords. I've moved the metro closer to the N1. I'm not sure if it really matters, I doubt there'll be a stop between the airoprt and swords.

maxheadroom

EvilDoctorK wrote:

Would the interconnector plan as outlined on http://www.platform11.org/dub_indo_ie.jpg not cause issues with capacity on the stretch from East Wall - Howth Junction ... It looks like there would be a peak capacity requirement of 18 trains + Enterprise services on this section which is currently simple Double Track with 5 DART stations

I haven't seen mention of Quadruple track plans or anything similar for this area (would it be easy given the proximity of housing to some of the sections of this line). Do plans exist to deal with this ?

There are plans to quad track the entire northern line from Connoly to Howth Junction. I read it over on P11's board, so maybe P11 Comms would be better able to comment on the detail of this?

murphaph

Hecate wrote:

We're starting from scratch here, and the interconnector is a great place to start. A lot of people want it all, and they want it now..ain't going to happen folks. The interconnector is the beginnings of a metro for dublin, and a good beginning at that.

--that sums it up perfectly. I hope that the interconnector gets the green light, then I bet any future notion of metro building (which has to happen eventually) will follow the interconnector standard-8 car DARTmetro trains under the city. Massive capacity metro which truly will force (economically) the knocking down of existing sprawling estates to be replaced with medium density housing along these high quality transport corridors. The developers will do it purely for financial reasons-people will pay a premium to be located near a DARTmetro station and this will encourage the further development of the system. People should view the interconnector as metro phase 1.

P11 Comms

murphaph wrote:

-- People should view the interconnector as metro phase 1.

to take this statement one step futher the DART was Phase 1 of the Metro and the Interconnector is Phase 2.

There is nothing about DART which is not a metro - it was designed as a metro 20 years and has performed that fuction ever since. There is no need to revent the wheel when we already have one.

P11 Comms

maxheadroom wrote:

There are plans to quad track the entire northern line from Connoly to Howth Junction. I read it over on P11's board, so maybe P11 Comms would be better able to comment on the detail of this?

Nothing has been written in stone yet, but a bi-directional, third running line is being looked at for that section similar to the ones used on the Oslo suburban network which change direction at peak hours. They are also looking at the possibility of this line being also place the upper sections of the Northern Lines around Skerries and Bettystown which would allow passing there with the Howth Branch operated as a shuttle only.

sliabh

murphaph wrote:

Massive capacity metro which truly will force (economically) the knocking down of existing sprawling estates to be replaced with medium density housing along these high quality transport corridors. The developers will do it purely for financial reasons-people will pay a premium to be located near a DARTmetro station and this will encourage the further development of the system.

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. It hasn't happened along the Dart and that has been there for 20 years now. The only places where they are moving to higher densities is areas like Grand Canal street where the were brown field sites suitable for conversion to new offices and appartments. And there was no housing on what land now being re-built.

They can rezone the land to higher densities but I would say it is a political non-runner to knock large quanties of semi-d houses to build even medium density housing. You can just see the headlines in the Indo screaming about it.

murphaph

sliabh wrote:

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. It hasn't happened along the Dart and that has been there for 20 years now.

--Personally know a guy whose family have sold their house in Dundrum to buid a small apartment block on it. That's because of metro frequency Luas and it's only just started operation. The existing DART is not a metro frequency service. It is easily capable of being so with these investments however. Also, the non-metro level of service DART as currently exists may have been around for 20 years, but housing hortages in Dublin have not, 1984 was not exactly boomtime Ireland. This, coupled with the fact that plenty of sites (mostly gone now) were available in west Dublin for the Celtic Tiger to consume so why buy up suburban sprawl when green fields are available. It's a pity that we didn't have more restrictive planning but there's not a lot we can do about that now. (Sub)Urban regeneration will take many decades however.

I hope I'm not coming across as plain anti-metro. I'm not-I'd love to see a full DART network covering the city. That's gonna take a long time and the CIE proposals are a great start. I think that removing all those cars from the N1, N2......N11 will free up a lot of roadspace for more QBCs/trams for citizens closer to the city centre.

BrianD

Sliabh wrote:

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. It hasn't happened along the Dart and that has been there for 20 years now.

It has been happening along the DART line!

Victor

sliabh wrote:

It hasn't happened along the Dart and that has been there for 20 years now.

So theres been no redevelopment in the centre of Blackrock? No new apartments in Monkstown or Ballsbridge or Malahide?

Victor

dmeehan wrote:

where's the map?

Ooops. https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/2160/6747.gif

Lennoxschips

If the InterConnector was built, you could have a proper InterCity service all the way from Belfast to Cork, am I correct?

murphaph

Lennoxschips wrote:

If the InterConnector was built, you could have a proper InterCity service all the way from Belfast to Cork, am I correct?

--In theory yes it would allow a clear through running from Cork to Belfast without having to reverse (as the case would be now if such a service existed). However-even though the interconnector is to have a very advanced air filtration system allowing the 2900 railcars to operate underground, I would not be so confident about running 201 or 071 class locomotives through. They produce a lot more smoke, especially under acceleration. I hope someday (pipedream?) that the interconnector will spur electrification of the line out to Kildare and up to Drogheda, leading people to push for electrification of the entire route from Cork to Belfast. But this is a long long way off and to be honest, there are many more priorities in Irish rail ahead of this, completing the DART network in Dublin, WRC etc. Clockface services from Cork to Heuston with easy change to Connolly via Luas to continue to Belfast on another clockface service is very good anyway. I wonder would passenger numbers justify a direct Cork-Belfast service? I have no idea of demand there.

Lennoxschips

Perhaps they could buy a dual locomotive that runs on deisel and electric. (Does such a thing exist)

The interconnector system is a good idea for Dublin, I like the way that it results in a kind of loop line around the city centre. (Assuming they open up the Phoenix Park tunnel again) You could have future Luas lines radiating off from the loop, with each of the stations acting as a Luas terminus. Each of these these would be mini transport hubs where commercial development could be encouraged.

I don't think Dublin has the neccesary population density to warrant the amount of investment that the proposed single metro line would require. A mixture of light rail and Luas lines is ideal for the Dublin urban sprawl. For the price of the metro line proposed you could probably build the interconnector and three more Luas lines.

Brussels built a similar "interconnector" in the 1950s and it has been a roaring success.

As for the Airport, they could branch a line off below Portmarnock and run airport express trains that only stop at the airport, Connolly st., Stephen's green and Heuston. You could even have trains coming in from the Cork/Kildare line and carrying on as far as the airport. This would make getting to the airport dead easy for people outside the pale.

My only question about the interconnector plan is: What happens at Heuston Station? It is currently a terminus and with the interconnector plan trains will be able to pass through it. Will they have to dismantle some of the building? (I hope not) How will this work?

maxheadroom

Lennoxschips wrote:

My only question about the interconnector plan is: What happens at Heuston Station? It is currently a terminus and with the interconnector plan trains will be able to pass through it. Will they have to dismantle some of the building? (I hope not) How will this work?

The interconnector plan includes 5 underground stations: new stations at High St and Stephen's green, and underground annexes to Heuston, Pearse and Spencer Dock (spencer dock surface station will have been built before the interconnector comes on stream).

thejollyrodger

You could even have trains coming in from the Cork/Kildare line and carrying on as far as the airport. This would make getting to the airport dead easy for people outside the pale

Could the same apply to traffic north of Dublin, i.e. could a spur be taken off the drogheda line go into the airport and then on to dublin. So traffic from either direction could go straight to the airport.

spencer dock surface station will have been built before the interconnector comes on stream

Maybe thats whats holding the interconnector up?

However-even though the interconnector is to have a very advanced air filtration system allowing the 2900 railcars to operate underground, I would not be so confident about running 201 or 071 class locomotives through

Will the new intercity carriages due in 2006 be able to pass through the interconnector? or is the main problem the engines? There arent any plans to replace the loco's are there? If there were, what would the maximnum speed be, 110mph?

maxheadroom

thejollyrodger wrote:

Maybe thats whats holding the interconnector up?

I don't think the budget for spencer dock surface ststion would make a dent in the budget for the interconnector + stations. I think the plan is to use the surface station at spencer dock to take some pressure off Connoly and Heuston for terminating intercity trains once the whole plan is ready. But I could be wrong on that.

murphaph

thejollyrodger wrote:

Could the same apply to traffic north of Dublin, i.e. could a spur be taken off the drogheda line go into the airport and then on to dublin. So traffic from either direction could go straight to the airport.

--Don't see why not, money and demand permitting.

thejollyrodger wrote:

Will the new intercity carriages due in 2006 be able to pass through the interconnector? or is the main problem the engines? There arent any plans to replace the loco's are there? If there were, what would the maximnum speed be, 110mph?

--New intercity (Mk IVs) will be able to pass through as will all carriages operated on the island of Ireland. You're right, IE have no plans at the moment to purchase new locos. Maximum speed of a 201 class loco is 100mph and that is also the maximum speed permitted on any stretch of irish railways at the moment.

P11 Comms

murphaph wrote:

--I hope someday (pipedream?) that the interconnector will spur electrification of the line out to Kildare and up to Drogheda, leading people to push for electrification of the entire route from Cork to Belfast. QUOTE]

never say never - with the Interconnector in place the case for EU funding for Belfast-Dublin-Cork electrifaction is a lot stronger.

Anything can happen, remember in 1987 the then government stated that the railways were to be wound down for eventual complete closure. Look how far we have come since 1997 alone - nearly a 100% complete relay of all mainline route track and hundreds of new trains and hundreds more on order. Not to mention expanded suburban service and LUAS.

P11 Comms

P11 Comms wrote:

murphaph wrote:

--I hope someday (pipedream?) that the interconnector will spur electrification of the line out to Kildare and up to Drogheda, leading people to push for electrification of the entire route from Cork to Belfast. .

never say never - with the Interconnector in place the case for EU funding for Belfast-Dublin-Cork electrifaction is a lot stronger.

Anything can happen, remember in 1987 the then Government stated that the railways were to be wound down for eventual complete closure.

Look how far we have come since 1997 alone - nearly a 100% complete relay of all mainline route track and hundreds of new trains and hundreds more on order. Not to mention expanded suburban services, Midleton reopening and LUAS. There is even a Limerick-Ennis commuter service now on a line that was carrying no regular passengers in 1987. So much for Minister Mitchell's axe...

When you think about this is the glory days of railways in Ireland as more Irish people use trains now than at any other time in our history proving that it's not about how much track you have in a network, it's the usefulness of the service.

If we could get the Interconnector the whole thing would come together beautifully.

P11 Comms

Spread the good news:

http://www.platform11.org/real_metro.jpg

Hecate

My only question about the interconnector plan is: What happens at Heuston Station? It is currently a terminus and with the interconnector plan trains will be able to pass through it. Will they have to dismantle some of the building? (I hope not) How will this work?

It would still be the mainline terminus for trains from cork, kerry galway and sligo no?

Actually, as regards those diesel emissions from the railcars in the interconnector tunnel; I've heard that the ones IE currently uses are diesel-electric locos so the diesel 'bit' can be switched off and the train can be run be an electric motor when its in the tunnel. Once the train is above ground the diesel kicks in again, charging the electric engine. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think thats how they work, kind of like the German U-Boats in WWII

John R

Hecate wrote:

It would still be the mainline terminus for trains from cork, kerry galway and sligo no?

Actually, as regards those diesel emissions from the railcars in the interconnector tunnel; I've heard that the ones IE currently uses are diesel-electric locos so the diesel 'bit' can be switched off and the train can be run be an electric motor when its in the tunnel. Once the train is above ground the diesel kicks in again, charging the electric engine. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think thats how they work, kind of like the German U-Boats in WWII

Consider yourself corrected then.

Diesel-Electric means that the locos have a diesel engine generating electricity which powers electric traction motors. They are not capable of operating with the diesel motor switched off. This is the standard form for all modern diesel locomotives. Railcars however typically have a hydraulic or mechanical drive.

jd

John R wrote:

Consider yourself corrected then.

Railcars however typically have a hydraulic or mechanical drive.

Aren't there such things as Demus though?

sliabh

Victor wrote:

So theres been no redevelopment in the centre of Blackrock? No new apartments in Monkstown or Ballsbridge or Malahide?

There has been loads of development. But murphaph's original comment which I was replying to said:

murphaph wrote:

will force (economically) the knocking down of existing sprawling estates to be replaced with medium density housing

So I am saying that is not likely to happen.

dmeehan

is the interconnector going to connect to the existing track at pearse? or will it just be a transfer station between the two lines?

maxheadroom

dmeehan wrote:

is the interconnector going to connect to the existing track at pearse? or will it just be a transfer station between the two lines?

I can't see how it could? Pearse station is above ground level, and the interconnector is going to be quite deep at this point, seeing as how its approaching the liffey.