Should Under-18s be aloud in pubs?

gom

Should Under-18s be aloud in pubs?

I see that Minister O'Donoghue wants the law reversed so that Children can hang out with their parents in the pub. His reason. Pubs are losing business. Tourism is down. While I think it is not wise to have a blanket ban on under-18s in pubs it is also not the place for them to be. I can understand why the numbers of families are falling in pub attendence and I welcome it. Family restrauants are more suited to children in my opinion. The continent is used as an example by the Minister as to where families are heading. He sites the ban as the reason. I say they are heading there because its more or less the same price as a holiday in Ireland, once you get there its cheaper, its more likely to be sunny and it is generally a more child friendly atmosphere.

Do you think the ban should go

Sleipnir

No. All the knackers will be there till closing with their kids.
Pubs are not losing business because children are not allowed in pubs after nine, they are losing business because going to a pub is currently the most expensive thing you can do socially in Ireland.
300% markup on soft drinks in pubs? Well I wouldn't want to be buying them all night for my kids.

Trojan

Agreed with Sleipnir. The publicans can feck off with their whining and moaning about smoking and kids. As a fairly typical 25 year old guy I can safely say that the reason I and my friends don't go to the pub as much as we used to is down to the price of drinks, plain and simple.

spongebob

I was gonna agree with Gom till I saw Sleipnirs answers.

They should be allowed in pubs "UNDER STRICT PARENTAL SUPERVISION" after 9PM . The Act would have to be amended to include that clause. Any deviation from "STRICT PARENTAL SUPERVISION" and they are all out. That could be because the kids are running riot or because the parents are to pished to supervise.

I was in a pub last weekend where there were kids after 9. They were well behaved and welcome to be trhere in my opinion.

The big problem IS the price though. It will take a sub €3 pint of porter as standard to bring many people back. That would be the price just before the Euro came in IIRC .

M

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

No. All the knackers will be there till closing with their kids.
Pubs are not losing business because children are not allowed in pubs after nine, they are losing business because going to a pub is currently the most expensive thing you can do socially in Ireland.
300% markup on soft drinks in pubs? Well I wouldn't want to be buying them all night for my kids.

What about familys on holidays would you prefer that they left the kids unsupervised or let them enjoy part of our culture.

Also I'd rather 15 and 16 year olds were in the pubs with their parents than knacker drinking in some fields.

I think people need to take a reality check, this Nanny state is starting to really bug me.

grumpytrousers

Should Under-18s be aloud in pubs?

God no - they should be quiet. Less chance of 'em getting caught and chucked out, obviously!

Seriously - I don't think there's anything wrong with 'young folk' of a certain age being in a pub with responsible parents who are doing 'responsible drinking'. But we've all probably been in pubs where either
a) it's so crowded and full of adult a**eholes that you think 'this is no place for kids' or
b) it's run over by jug eared little tykes tanked to the gills on 7up and Salt'n'Vinegar crisps shouting their heads off and wanting money for the jukebox that you begin to wonder if the victorian child labour laws weren't such a bad idea

neither situation is ideal, and to be honest, it requires a subjective application of some kind of policy - probably the Licensee is in the best position to judge this. If he chooses to run a family friendly pub (and according to Zero O'Donoghue there's huge demand for this) kids should be allowed stay, but the atmosphere should be condusive to this. I suppose that's a guarded no then, to 2 for the price of 1 on Smirnoff Ice and Cocktail lists advertising Slippery Nipples.....

However - and perhaps I'm old fashioned - maybe a pub isn't the healthiest of places for kids to be. I realise that parents like a night out and away from the kids, but you know, sorry, if kids tend to be a pain in the hole to the rest of the punters in a pub then the parents should take the hint, bring the kids home and read them a bedtime story. Dammit, they can find a baby sitter and go drink when they're back at home!

Villain

In regards to the price I don't think people should discuss in regards to location. I mean I can buy a pint of Ale in my local for €3.10 I paid €3.90 for it in the Plaza Hotel in Killarney 2 weeks ago and I'm sure Dublin prices are higher in places. Not every publican is making huge profits, its wrong to accuse all publicans.

Sleipnir

Drunk people falling about the place? That's not culture.
They can experience our pub culture until 9 o'clock. Does the experience get much better after nine?
The problem with "UNDER STRICT PARENTAL SUPERVISION" is that it will be the publican who decides that.
If a family of six are all drinking and the 4 kids are having a soft-drink at 300% mark up every thirty minutes I think the publicans will have a relaxed view on what "strict" really is.
how much of a pub's revenue came from under-18's after nine o'clock before the ban?
Not even half a percent I'd say.

The phrase "nanny-state" being bandied about non-stop is REALLY beginning to bug me.

seamus

As with most things, I think it's a case where it should be allowed, but only with a permit and a valid reason. That is, John who owns a restaurant runs a cabaret act at 9pm two nights a week, and a magic show at 9pm one night a week, can't have kids in the hall to see it because there's a bar there, and so many parents can't go. He should be allowed an exemption for those nights.

For standard pubs, no, no way in hell. Aside from a pub quiz, which are rarely held in pubs anymore, nobody has any good reason to have their child in a pub after 9pm.

Sleipnir

seamus wrote:

As with most things, I think it's a case where it should be allowed, but only with a permit and a valid reason. That is, John who owns a restaurant runs a cabaret act at 9pm two nights a week, and a magic show at 9pm one night a week, can't have kids in the hall to see it because there's a bar there, and so many parents can't go. He should be allowed an exemption for those nights.

For standard pubs, no, no way in hell. Aside from a pub quiz, which are rarely held in pubs anymore, nobody has any good reason to have their child in a pub after 9pm.

Yeah fine, I would agree with that.

I've seen a ten year old trying to get his father to stand up so that he could walk him home (that is, the ten year old could walk his father home) only to be told to F*** off.
I don't want to see it happen more.

spongebob

One of the arguments in FAVOUR of under 18s in pubs after 9PM is that many of the best Trad sessions are in pubs after 9PM which is where the young musicans learn from the older ones. It is a unique aspect of our culture which will suffer if the 9PM rule is applied to the letter.

While the large cities are deserts when it comes to proper Trad I think that any Guard enforcing the 9PM cutoff in Feakle or Milltown Malbay needs his head examined.

Again the parents should be there to supervise and give them a lift home so the "STRICT PARENTAL SUPERVISION" clause should cover that eventuality too or else a 'Loco Parentis' clasue in the Act for Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann supervised events.

M

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

Drunk people falling about the place? That's not culture.
They can experience our pub culture until 9 o'clock. Does the experience get much better after nine?
The problem with "UNDER STRICT PARENTAL SUPERVISION" is that it will be the publican who decides that.
If a family of six are all drinking and the 4 kids are having a soft-drink at 300% mark up every thirty minutes I think the publicans will have a relaxed view on what "strict" really is.
how much of a pub's revenue came from under-18's after nine o'clock before the ban?
Not even half a percent I'd say.

The phrase "nanny-state" being bandied about non-stop is REALLY beginning to bug me.

Drunk people falling around the place??? It's against the law to serve those people.

Come on Sleipnir thats a very sweeping statement to make, obviously there are pubs where there would be a large number of drunk people present, but there is a lot more pubs where there the number of Drunk people present is either very small or none at all.

When I was in Killarney 2 weeks ago I don't recall seeing anyone really drunk in any pub, I did however see some familys enjoying the traditional music.

Stark

Maybe extend it till they're allowed in till 10 or something. I can see the advantage to this idea as far as tourism is concerned. Irish kids on the other hand will have their whole lives to be crammed into ****holes and ripped off. Starting them off from a younger age will only further reinforce the already entrenched idea that "this is normal, this is adult life, this is all there is for fun". I mean how many of us saw our parents drinking at Christmas time and thought "so alcohol's what it takes to be grown up"?

Villain

Stark wrote:

Maybe extend it till they're allowed in till 10 or something. I can see the advantage to this idea as far as tourism is concerned. Irish kids on the other hand will have their whole lives to be crammed into ****holes and ripped off. Starting them off from a younger age will only further reinforce the already entrenched idea that "this is normal, this is adult life, this is all there is for fun". I mean how many of us saw our parents drinking at Christmas time and thought "so alcohol's what it takes to be grown up"?

There is nothing wrong with promoting sensible drinking, if people think that stopping kids from being in pubs after 9 is going to stop them drinking when they get older they are very much mistaken. Next thing they won't be allowed in at all, and what about weddings should a 17 year old be forced to leave his brother or sisters wedding after 9??

grumpytrousers

should a 17 year old be forced to leave his brother or sisters wedding after 9??

If his parents dance like mine do, then Yes. And he should be thankful...

Villain

lol Best point in this thread

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

Drunk people falling around the place??? It's against the law to serve those people.

Yeah, and it never happens right? That's why nobody in ireland is ever drunk, cos the publicans are looking after us and not thinking about their wallets.

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

There is nothing wrong with promoting sensible drinking, if people think that stopping kids from being in pubs after 9 is going to stop them drinking when they get older they are very much mistaken. Next thing they won't be allowed in at all, and what about weddings should a 17 year old be forced to leave his brother or sisters wedding after 9??

Of course it won't stop them but it will help prevent normalizing drunkeness in young people's eyes.
There is no one cure and nobody says there is.

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

Yeah, and it never happens right? That's why nobody in ireland is ever drunk, cos the publicans are looking after us and not thinking about their wallets.

Apolgies that was meant in a light hearted way, but yes it is the law and it should be enforced more.

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

Of course it won't stop them but it will help prevent normalizing drunkeness in young people's eyes.
There is no one cure and nobody says there is.

No Responisble parenting and alcholol education in schools will help "prevent normalizing drunkeness in young people's eyes".

Sleipnir

And what about the other customers in the pub who don't have kids there?
They can drink until they can barely stand and the parents can't stop their kids seeing it.

gom

Mostly the main reason that FF want the ban reversed is the fact that the bulwork of the FF party - the Publician is in Dire straits with the smoking ban, child ban and stricter ID. Not to mention stricter closing times.

So instead of listen to citizens FF is listening to Special interests.
Nothing really changes in this country...

Villain

If they were responisble parents they would then leave also, its not brain science, and remember as I have already said there are few pubs where there are many customers so drunk they can barely stand up. It should be for the parents to decide not teh Government.

What would you say about a 17 year old having to leave his sisters or brothers wedding?

Sleipnir

gom wrote:

Mostly the main reason that FF want the ban reversed is the fact that the bulwork of the FF party - the Publician is in Dire straits with the smoking ban, child ban and stricter ID. Not to mention stricter closing times.

So instead of listen to citizens FF is listening to Special interests.
Nothing really changes in this country...

The publican is in dire straits because of stricter ID? Well, that's good then right
The publicans income from rip-offs was dropping before the smoking ban was implemented and the same applies for the child ban.

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

If they were responisble parents they would then leave also, its not brain science, and remember as I have already said there are few pubs where there are many customers so drunk they can barely stand up. It should be for the parents to decide not teh Government.

What would you say about a 17 year old having to leave his sisters or brothers wedding?

Yeah, that would be great, but it's not reality.

To quote myself from above

I've seen a ten year old trying to get his father to stand up so that he could walk him home (that is, the ten year old could walk his father home) only to be told to F*** off.

gobby

I find this all very interesting.

I have been living in a small German town for the past 6 months or so. This town has no college and hence everybody who lives here is either under 18 or over 60 (give or take).

So I would have thought that the pubs would be very quiet. Not so. The legal age for drinking in Germany (maybe not all of Germany) is 16 for beer and 18 for spirits. Also, if there is someone under 16-18 on the premises then they have to leave after 12:00pm.

The pubs here (one or two especially) do be jammed with young drinkers. If this situation was ever allowed in Ireland then there would be chaos!

Also, I cant understand how the pubs here stay open. They are so cheap and one of them has promotions on almost every night! For a pint of really, really, really good beer here it is on average €2.50.

We have so many restrictions on drinking in Ireland and there are so few restrictions here, why is it that in Ireland we get so many alcohol related probelms but, in general, on the continent, where one is allowed to drink on the street and yound people can drink in pubs there doesnt seem to be the same problems whatsoever!?

Its mad!

grumpytrousers

We have so many restrictions on drinking in Ireland and there are so few restrictions here, why is it that in Ireland we get so many alcohol related probelms but, in general, on the continent, where one is allowed to drink on the street and yound people can drink in pubs there doesnt seem to be the same problems whatsoever!?

It's something deeply ingrained in the national psyche. No amount of legislation will change the fact that too many of us enjoy drinking too much too often.

I include myself in this, btw...

Mighty_Mouse

I really don't think a pub is a place to be having a child at night. If your a tourist. Go out at seven and then feck off home with your kids at nine.

I feel sorry for those people who do the responsible thing by forking out for a baby sitter only to be surrounded by kids when they go down to their local for a quiet one.

Again, its a bit like the smoking. Dragging up bizaar exceptions to the rule doesn't take away from the fact that the genreal ideal of the proposed legislation is sound.

Surely theres a way to deal with bizarre exceptions rather than throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

There are extremes both ways. I'm sure everyone has seen parents sloshed out of their heads with red-faced tired cranky kids running around or screaming for "taytos" at 11o'clock in pubs.

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

Yeah, that would be great, but it's not reality.

To quote myself from above

Whats not the reality??

I'm not saying cases that you gave an example of don't happen but there are few and far between.

The government should be more worried about the HUGE numbers of teenagers from 12 to 17 that are drinking in fields around the country everyday, but then again that would involve making some real changes. Having under 18's in pubs after 9 is a very minor issued compared to other problems.

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

Whats not the reality??

I'm not saying cases that you gave an example of don't happen but there are few and far between.

The government should be more worried about the HUGE numbers of teenagers from 12 to 17 that are drinking in fields around the country everyday, but then again that would involve making some real changes. Having under 18's in pubs after 9 is a very minor issued compared to other problems.

I disagree, I think it's a very important issue and not one that we should just say "ah, it's grand" to.
They are not "few and far between" and anyway, if it is as rare as you think, allowing kids into pubs until closing time would only increase those cases. Or do you honestly believe it wouldn't?

You're right, they should be worried about teens drinking in fields and it is again due to lack of enforcement that they are able to purchase booze (which is why I am in favour of permanently labelling booze with the address of the premises it was purchased from).
However, allowing teens in pubs until closing time will again normalise drunkeness and also make booze appear more accessible and desireable.


You're idea is of a happy-clappy family all sitting down with the kids on their parents laps smiling while they listen to trad which is very nice, lovely in fact but it's not worth having some other kid having to call an ambulance because their mother or father is unconscious in the gutter.

Actually, a couple of years ago in Bray, I did have a pair of kids asking me to call an ambulance because they couldn't wake their mother up. When I checked her she was completely p*ssed. And that was at 10:30.

You explain to those kids that the reason they can't wake their mother up is because the publicans are up the swanny and need more cash.

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

I disagree, I think it's a very important issue and not one that we should just say "ah, it's grand" to.
They are not "few and far between" and anyway, if it is as rare as you think, allowing kids into pubs until closing time would only increase those cases. Or do you honestly believe it wouldn't?

You're right, they should be worried about teens drinking in fields and it is again due to lack of enforcement that they are able to purchase booze (which is why I am in favour of permanently labelling booze with the address of the premises it was purchased from).
However, allowing teens in pubs until closing time will again normalise drunkeness and also make booze appear more accessible and desireable.


You're idea is of a happy-clappy family all sitting down with the kids on their parents laps smiling while they listen to trad which is very nice, lovely in fact but it's not worth having some other kid having to call an ambulance because their mother or father is unconscious in the gutter.

Actually, a couple of years ago in Bray, I did have a pair of kids asking me to call an ambulance because they couldn't wake their mother up. When I checked her she was completely p*ssed. And that was at 10:30.

You explain to those kids that the reason they can't wake their mother up is because the publicans are up the swanny and need more cash.

In These cases the Publicans should be reported and their Licence Renewal challenged, if the excisting laws were enforced in relation to serving drunk people there would be a lot less problems. I agree with your labelling idea, but they would be easily removed and the majority of the time the drink is sold to an adult who passes it along to the teenagers.