Should Under-18s be aloud in pubs?

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

In These cases the Publicans should be reported and their Licence Renewal challenged, if the excisting laws were enforced in relation to serving drunk people there would be a lot less problems.

Yeah but, in reality, that doesn't actually happen. I agree that we would be better off if existing laws were enforced but at the moment, they aren't.

Allowing under-18's into pubs would not improve the situation, it would only make it worse.

Villain

Well we'l just have to agree to disagree, but I think it's a harsh law that prevents Familys on holidays from bringing their children to trad session or even go to the bar for a drink after a meal and especially stopping under 18's from attending family weddings after 9pm.

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

Well we'l just have to agree to disagree.

I don't agree to that.

Villain

OK 12 rounds sound ok to you

chill

Sleipnir wrote:

However, allowing teens in pubs until closing time will again normalise drunkeness and also make booze appear more accessible and desireable.

I so NOT buy into this obsession with alcohol that so many Irish people sem to share. And the cause is the history of obsessive legilation and prescriptive rules that govern it.

We need to get away from these stupid and overbearing rules about how we DRINK and move to laws governing how we BEHAVE.
There is nothing wrong with alcohol. What is wrong is how a very few people abuse it, and it's about time we stopped governing the vast vast majority of our lives because of the behaviour of this few.

There should no NO closing or opening times for pubs. Alcohol should be available in all places that serve food and we need to allow parents to bring their children into pubs at whatever time they chose. We need to get children back into pubs to recreate the family atmosphere that most of Europe enjoys, whene the presence of children has a normalising affect on bad behaviour instead of what we have now - pubs full of 18-25 year olds behaving like preteens and getting as drunk as they can before closing time.

You're idea is of a happy-clappy family all sitting down with the kids on their parents laps smiling while they listen to trad which is very nice, lovely in fact but it's not worth having some other kid having to call an ambulance because their mother or father is unconscious in the gutter.

Well actually yes it is !
It's about time we stopped preventing thousands of decent happy families enjoying their lives just because one family is disfunctional.

Actually, a couple of years ago in Bray, I did have a pair of kids asking me to call an ambulance because they couldn't wake their mother up. When I checked her she was completely p*ssed. And that was at 10:30.

So what !!!!! This is a meaningless story. We cnanot allow one dumbass mother to drive a whole country's drinking laws.

You explain to those kids that the reason they can't wake their mother up is because the publicans are up the swanny and need more cash.

I'll happily explain to them that the reason is their mother is SICK !!!

grumpytrousers

Are you suggesting that people should take responsibility for their own actions. You are a SICK AND TWISTED liberal...

naw - you're kinda right. i mean, in the broader 'alcohol policy' debate, pubs should be open all hours and if people choose to drink themselves silly, fine - go for it. It'll happen for a few months, and then people will slowly realise that they've only so much money and so much time, and that work needs to be done.

My sole reason for not being pro 'kids in pubs' is that

a) they annoy me if they get rowdy (and face it, if a publican won't challenge drunken rowdy adults, he's certainly not going to challenge a 12 year old armed with a gameboy)
b) pubs are for adults. playgrounds are for children. there are certain places for overlap, but the pub isn't one.

You want to bond with your kids? Bring them to a football match. Go for a walk. Bring them to the cinema. Read them a story. there's oodles of other things, but bringing 'em to a place where talking bollocks is an artform IMHO isn't one of 'em!

Sleipnir

Irish people couldn't handle it, it's a simple as that. It's a shame, but it's the truth.
Opening pubs 24x7 to all and sundry across the country would be a disaster.
Good idea,
"Do it, don't think about the consequences"

I can see you've really thought this through.

The "meaningless story" as you put it, is an example okay?
Did I say we should legislate on this one instance alone?
I wonder would it be meaningless if it was you who had to try to wake your own mother up from the gutter?
I wonder was the experience "meaningless" for her children.

It's about time we stopped preventing thousands of decent happy families enjoying their lives just because one family is disfunctional.

"Preventing" families from "enjoying their lives" ?
What the hell are you on about? Is this the Waltons forum?
Not being allowed into pubs after nine prevents people from "enjoying their lives" ?

Gimme a break.

gobby

chill wrote:

...We need to get away from these stupid and overbearing rules about how we DRINK and move to laws governing how we BEHAVE.
There is nothing wrong with alcohol. What is wrong is how a very few people abuse it, and it's about time we stopped governing the vast vast majority of our lives because of the behaviour of this few...

Have to agree with you there chill. It is so easy to get alcohol on the continent. And everybody does just that but there is rarely any bullsh*t...

chill

grumpytrousers wrote:

Are you suggesting that people should take responsibility for their own actions. You are a SICK AND TWISTED liberal...

My sole reason for not being pro 'kids in pubs' is that ...

a) they annoy me if they get rowdy (and face it, if a publican won't challenge drunken rowdy adults, he's certainly not going to challenge a 12 year old armed with a gameboy)
b) pubs are for adults. playgrounds are for children. there are certain places for overlap, but the pub isn't one.

You want to bond with your kids? Bring them to a football match. Go for a walk. Bring them to the cinema. Read them a story. there's oodles of other things, but bringing 'em to a place where talking bollocks is an artform IMHO isn't one of 'em!

No offense intended but this is a large reason for the present mess. We seem to have developed a weird anti-children attitute in this country. So many people are so tolerent of drunks, yet are so quick to whinge about a few kids having a nice time. Lighten up !

Pubs should NOT be seen as places without children, and if you want to get away from children there will always be places that have less than others. In my experience in Europe this is the way it happens.

if we had a more child-friendly attitude we would have a lot less drink problems imho.

chill

Sleipnir wrote:

Irish people couldn't handle it, it's a simple as that. It's a shame, but it's the truth.

No. It's a complete myth.

Opening pubs 24x7 to all and sundry across the country would be a disaster.
Good idea,
"Do it, don't think about the consequences"

On the contrary my whole point is that people SHOULD take the consequences. We need to shift the legal control from drinking to behaviour !

I can see you've really thought this through.

Thank you. After a lifetime in pubs and a lot of time on the continent - I believe I have.

The "meaningless story" as you put it, is an example okay?
Did I say we should legislate on this one instance alone?
I wonder would it be meaningless if it was you who had to try to wake your own mother up from the gutter?
I wonder was the experience "meaningless" for her children.

No. But it is unacceptable to restrict the enjoyment by the rest of the population just because of a tiny minority of ill people.

"Preventing" families from "enjoying their lives" ?
What the hell are you on about? Is this the Waltons forum?
Not being allowed into pubs after nine prevents people from "enjoying their lives" ?

Well actually yes it is. And in many pubs it is not nine... it is 6pm.

MANY people on holidays here are prevented from enjoying their evenings because they cannot bring their children into pubs and cannot have babysitters because they know no one here.

I do not see why the government has a right to tell me when I am on holidays or on a long weekend why I cannot being my 10 year old daughter with me into a pub at 10pm or 11pm to meet with our friends and neighbours.

Yes it DOES prevent me from enjoying my life the way I CHOOSE to enjoy it.

ionapaul

gobby wrote:

Have to agree with you there chill. It is so easy to get alcohol on the continent. And everybody does just that but there is rarely any bullsh*t...

Those damn continentals can enjoy all the alcohol they like and it won't change the fact that Irish people and society have a fundamental problem with drinking to excess! Drinking is regulated in this country because we drink too much, not the other way around. Change our dependance/addiction to alcohol, and we will no longer need to regulate alcohol consumption as much...considering that alcoholism/addictive tendencies are thought often passed down from generation to generation via genetic heritage (as well as being 'taught' to children by parents/role models) and you can see this is an uphill struggle.

Ireland already has enough of a problem with drink without allowing teenagers into a bar. You see, i'm for the gradual destruction of the pub culture, and keeping children out of pubs is a very good step in the right direction. We already have smoking bans in place, lets move forward and apply the same to alcohol, for all ages.

Can anyone honestly tell me that a pub is a good environment for children to expierence? I certainly don't think so, and I spent enough time in pubs as a teenager/child to appreciate that.

ionapaul

chill wrote:

No. But it is unacceptable to restrict the enjoyment by the rest of the population just because of a tiny minority of ill people.
...
Yes it DOES prevent me from enjoying my life the way I CHOOSE to enjoy it.

That is a consequence of living in a society. You could always live somewhere with less rules and regulations!

It is NOT unacceptable* for the government to impose universal rules and regulations to protect a minority, or protect the majority from a minority. If assault rifles were legal, most who would own one would behave in a responsible manner...however, it is the 1% that would go on murderous rampages that 'restrict' the rest of us from owning them...and I for one am glad that the government is here to inforce such a restriction! Sorry for taking such an extreme example, but the point is clear. If everyone were to live their lives the way they choose to, society would break down into anarchy.

*sorry for the double negatives

gobby

ionapaul wrote:

Those damn continentals can enjoy all the alcohol they like and it won't change the fact that Irish people and society have a fundamental problem with drinking to excess! Drinking is regulated in this country because we drink too much, not the other way around. Change our dependance/addiction to alcohol, and we will no longer need to regulate alcohol consumption as much...considering that alcoholism/addictive tendencies are thought often passed down from generation to generation via genetic heritage (as well as being 'taught' to children by parents/role models) and you can see this is an uphill struggle.

Good point but at the same time, restricting people isn't going to stop them from doing what they want to do. Why bother restricting people from entering pubs. Its not going to fix any fundamental problems.

We do have a lot of alcohol related problems but I feel that placing restrictions on peoples access to alcohol is not going to fix anything. People can still get it. We are a country that 'bends' rules. Why cant we educate ourselves so that these problems wont occur in the next generations? Fu*k the current alcoholics. Fix the current generation and let the fu*ked one die out.

Deleted User wrote:

Ireland already has enough of a problem with drink without allowing teenagers into a bar. You see, i'm for the gradual destruction of the pub culture, and keeping children out of pubs is a very good step in the right direction. We already have smoking bans in place, lets move forward and apply the same to alcohol, for all ages.

Why destroy our pub culture!? Its part of our identity. Why not fix it, put some effort into educating the younger generations. The smoking ban is a step in the right direction for sure. But I dont think we should ban alcohol. Why not ban smoking outright? Surely thats a greater evil. (I'm not in favour of that btw, just a point)

Deleted User wrote:

Can anyone honestly tell me that a pub is a good environment for children to expierence? I certainly don't think so, and I spent enough time in pubs as a teenager/child to appreciate that.

No, a pub is not such a great place for children at the moment. But I think that can change.

ferdi

appologies to Sleipnir for stealing his argument but....this is an email i sent to this man , John O'Donoghue TD:

Dear Sir,

I am writing to you with regard to your planned law revision which will allow children go to the pub with their parents because you say that Pubs are losing business because of this Law on top of the smoking ban. Pubs are not losing business because children are not allowed in pubs after nine, they are losing business because going to a pub is currently the most expensive thing you can do socially in Ireland. Please address the massive mark up which publicans place on their drink before you put children back into this adult environment.

Yours faithfully,

Ferdinand Beck


if you want to send him one his address is ministersoffice@dast.gov.ie

Why destroy our pub culture!? Its part of our identity. Why not fix it, put some effort into educating the younger generations. The smoking ban is a step in the right direction for sure. But I dont think we should ban alcohol. Why not ban smoking outright? Surely thats a greater evil. (I'm not in favour of that btw, just a point)

Why Not? Our pub culture is already dying a bit due to the cost of drink. Why not go a step further and reduce it more. You see, I view alcohol as being worse than Smoking. I do both, and I now agree totally with the smoking ban. I'd like to see the same for alcohol. While drink has the potential to used in moderation, Irish people as a society has a greater history and inclination to abuse it. Lets face it, smoking was banned for our health. Drinking does as much damage to our health, and causes plenty of crime in itself.

No, a pub is not such a great place for children at the moment. But I think that can change.

sure. If you take away the alcohol from the place.

gobby

Deleted User wrote:

Why Not? Our pub culture is already dying a bit due to the cost of drink. Why not go a step further and reduce it more. You see, I view alcohol as being worse than Smoking. I do both, and I now agree totally with the smoking ban. I'd like to see the same for alcohol. While drink has the potential to used in moderation, Irish people as a society has a greater history and inclination to abuse it. Lets face it, smoking was banned for our health. Drinking does as much damage to our health, and causes plenty of crime in itself.

Its true, unfortunatly that so many people abuse alcohol in Ireland but do you realistically think that that would work. I know that many people thought the smoking ban would not work but I think that a ban on drinking would cause just a little more upset. Can you imagine the vinters reaction!?

Drink in moderation is fantastic! We just have to figure out how to moderate its use I guess.

Whenever I tell any of my German mates about the closing times of the pubs in Ireland they are always shocked. I think something could maybe be done about this. People end up buying a rake load of drinks coming up to closing time. Closing time here is... well, I'm not even sure. You leave when you are tired! I dunno... There has to be a way to stop all the drunken crazyness.

Also, when people are really drunk here, most of them dont feel the need to kick the crap out of someone.

AngelofFire

Of course they should be allowed.Pubs aren`t only about drinking they are a major social asset in this country.Theres nothing wrong with parents bringing kids to pubs on a sunday for 2 or 3 hours for a meal and few drinks provided that the parents drink sensibly.The department of family and social affairs already has laws in place to prevent alcoholic parents from dragging their kids around pubs until closing time, pubs have regulations to keep children under control.With the smoking ban now introduced,rish to childrens health and respiration systems is no longer an issue.

Duckjob

gobby wrote:

Why destroy our pub culture!? Its part of our identity. Why not fix it, put some effort into educating the younger generations.

Here, here!

At the end of the day, it should be up to individual publicans, not the government to maintain a policy on who they want on their premises. Publicans will have a natural preference themselves, according to their location and the demographic of their target market.


As to the annoyance factor, consider the following:

(A) Listening to a kid running around the general area I'm in, enjoying themselves, but making a bit of noise.

or

(B)
- Having some drunken arsehole I don't know from Adam drench me with beery gob as he shouts highly opinionated, but completely non-sensical drunken bollocks in my ear.
- Having to pretend to listen and keep quite even though he's talking complete arse, because if I argue back, he'll either see it as a debate and NEVER leave, or else decide to teach me a lesson for not agreeing with his
highly opinionated non-sensical drunken bollocks.
- Getting drink spilt all over me because he's rendered himself completely incapable of physical coardination of any kind.
- When the sheeiteclub I'm in plays the national anthem at the end of the night (IMO equivelant to wiping ones hole with the tricolor) , watching him jump-up, then fall over, and then stagger up again and salute, then turn around and get stroppy with me because I'm not doing the same. "Yes, you fine specimen of fenian warriordom, you"


If it was down to a choice, I'd choose the kid everytime, at least he's not invading my personal space. FFS, I WAS that kid once.

Some parents are responsible. They just want to bring their kids into pubs for a meal and a have a pint for themselve at the same time. Where's the harm in that? Granted, other parents are irresponsible assholes, but disallowing them from bringing their children into pub premises won't make them more responsible, they'll just go off home and be irresponsible there instead. Will the experience of the chidren in question be much different? I don't think so.


The traditional notion of the Irish pub as a fun sociable place where families went to engage in talk and laugher, music and dance has been hijacked and cheapened by the 'beer-sheep' of the country to mean somewhere you go to skull back 16 pints and a rake of shorts, then score as many people as possible before pissing, puking and passing out on public streets.

I don't any other country, except maybe the UK, which has a more immature attitude towards alcohol as we have in this country. Makes me weary....

Sleipnir

chill wrote:

No. It's a complete myth.

You're kidding right?
Tell me you don't honestly believe that the international reputation the Irish have attained over many years for Olympic drinking is a myth?
It's simply not true that we're like that?

Stand outside Annabel's when it shuts on Saturday night and tell me we have have wonderful self-control when it comes to boozing.

chill wrote:

Well actually yes it is. And in many pubs it is not nine... it is 6pm.

The 6 p.m. deadline is implemented by the publican in question. I wonder why a publican would choose to implement it earlier than 2100?
Possibly they don't want kids in there after 6? Strange...what possible reason could they have for doing that with all the happy, smiling families singing cum-bah-ya around the fireplace.

chill wrote:

I do not see why the government has a right to tell me when I am on holidays or on a long weekend why I cannot being my 10 year old daughter with me into a pub at 10pm or 11pm to meet with our friends and neighbours.

Because other people in the pub don't want your kid running around shouting and being a nuisance while the parents get drunk.
A 10 year old should be in bed at that time anyway.What kind of parent would keep their kids up till after 11pm so they could continue getting boozed-up?

chill

ionapaul wrote:

Those damn continentals can enjoy all the alcohol they like and it won't change the fact that Irish people and society have a fundamental problem with drinking to excess! Drinking is regulated in this country because we drink too much, not the other way around.

No way. What evidence is there for that ?

I suggest to you that it is completely the OTHER WAY AROUND.

Change our dependance/addiction to alcohol, and we will no longer need to regulate alcohol consumption as much...considering that alcoholism/addictive tendencies are thought often passed down from generation to generation via genetic heritage (as well as being 'taught' to children by parents/role models) and you can see this is an uphill struggle.

No. There is no higher incidence of alcoholism in Ireland than any other country.

AngelofFire

No. There is no higher incidence of alcoholism in Ireland than any other country.

I agree, the government and the mirror seem to think that drinking and alcoholism are the same thing, thus trying to justify both their calls for gross restrictions of civil liberties when it comes to drinking.

Sleipnir

There has been a huge rise in alcohol-related public order offenses in Ireland over the past 15 years.
If you can't see that, you've got blinkers on the size of footbal stadiums.
Drop into A&E on Saturday night and ask those fellas.

ionapaul

Duckjob wrote:

As to the annoyance factor, consider the following:

(A) Listening to a kid running around the general area I'm in, enjoying themselves, but making a bit of noise.

or

(B)
- Having some drunken arsehole I don't know from Adam drench me with beery gob as he shouts highly opinionated, but completely non-sensical drunken bollocks in my ear.
- Having to pretend to listen and keep quite even though he's talking complete arse, because if I argue back, he'll either see it as a debate and NEVER leave, or else decide to teach me a lesson for not agreeing with his
highly opinionated non-sensical drunken bollocks.
- Getting drink spilt all over me because he's rendered himself completely incapable of physical coardination of any kind.
- When the sheeiteclub I'm in plays the national anthem at the end of the night (IMO equivelant to wiping ones hole with the tricolor) , watching him jump-up, then fall over, and then stagger up again and salute, then turn around and get stroppy with me because I'm not doing the same. "Yes, you fine specimen of fenian warriordom, you"
...
I don't any other country, except maybe the UK, which has a more immature attitude towards alcohol as we have in this country. Makes me weary....

Unfortunately, I don't think you can have the A or B choice you indicated above...B is a given, if you include A you will still endure B. What some of us are saying is that A should not be there because of B...i.e. the kid will be there running around the pub while the drunken arsehole shouts in your ear, my ear, the parents ear, and worst of all, at the kid running around! The kid SHOULD NOT be there! Pubs are for drinking an addictive substance called alcohol - drinking in itself is not a bad thing, enjoying it in moderation is grand, but in Ireland, drinking more often than not means to drinking to excess.

As for running around having fun - kids should be outside doing that, on a sports field or in a playground. They shouldn't be dragged into a pub to run around and try to have fun while around them people are getting wasted. Excuse me if I sound like a dry****e, but that is how I feel about kids in pubs. We're only talking about after 9pm here, don't try to tell me most people in pubs after 9 are there for the 'unique cultural thrill' Ireland fosters in our pubs at that hour!

I 100% agree with your last comment. Something needs to be done about the Irish attitude to drink.

Flukey

Children should be allowed in pubs after 9pm, but only under supervision.As kids when we went on holidays we were often allowed in pubs and hotels where there were musicians and such. Of course it should not be allowed as a baby sitting service where kids can run riot around the place without parents caring, and rules in relation to alcohol consumption would still have to be observed. It is better to have them there than out drinking in a field and it could even be beneficial to them being exposed to a pub, under parental supervision. Seeing small children in a pub late at night, is not a nice sight, but in holiday areas, like Salthill in Galway for example, where families are on holiday, it should be allowed.

AngelofFire

Sleipnir wrote:

There has been a huge rise in alcohol-related public order offenses in Ireland over the past 15 years.
If you can't see that, you've got blinkers on the size of footbal stadiums.
Drop into A&E on Saturday night and ask those fellas.

Our problems with people going to the A&E with alcohol poisoning are no different to those of the six counties or Britain.These are a small minority of people,99.9% of people who go out on a saturday night drink sensibly.why should we restrict their liberties because of the irresponsible actions of a minority.

Duckjob

ionapaul wrote:

Unfortunately, I don't think you can have the A or B choice you indicated above...B is a given, if you include A you will still endure B. What some of us are saying is that A should not be there because of B

I'm not saying you get to choose A or B. My point is people are saying, "don't let children in there because there's drunks", but if the parents see drunkenness, they can complain to staff, and failing that, they can leave and go somewhere else. I think parents should be trusted to make the decision as to whats a suitable environment for their children.

Remember also that as the line because bar and food areas has blurred in recent times, you're not just talking about pure pubs. Having a law such as it is is overkill IMO, the discretion of the parents should be all sufficient.

Sleipnir

Your 99.9% statement is complete horseshi*.

if you interviewed 100 people at 3 a.m. of Saturday night you think not even one would be drunk?
I'd say 70-90% of them would be fairly well-on.

Duckjob

please disregard the syntax of my last post :-)

Sleipnir

Duckjob wrote:

I'm not saying you get to choose A or B. My point is people are saying, "don't let children in there because there's drunks", but if the parents see drunkenness, they can complain to staff, and failing that, they can leave and go somewhere else. I think parents should be trusted to make the decision as to whats a suitable environment for their children.

Remember also that as the line because bar and food areas has blurred in recent times, you're not just talking about pure pubs. Having a law such as it is is overkill IMO, the discretion of the parents should be all sufficient.

Unfortunately it just isn't enough to leave it to the parents or the publicans. Anyway, you could apply the same criteria to every law if that were the case.
We'll leave the drunk driving thing down to the driver. They should have the cop-on to realise that they could kill someone.