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Aikido, or something similar?
Comments
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Sparks wrote:You know, someone probably should point out at this stage that not every martial arts school is there purely to train people to beat the living snot out of each other and that only those who want to hurt other people need apply...
The whole thread kicked off because of different views on AikiDo (TRADITIONALY A NON AGGRESSIVE ARTlook up the meaning of AiKiDo) : :rolleyes:
People train for different reasons some to feel safe some to be safe and some because they enjoy it ,Most martial arts are aggressive in nature !that was the whole reason behind their origin, to prevent bullyboy tactics!
We have had a few nasty guys train in the arts in this country some now dead BUT GETTING THE SNOT BEAT OUTOF YOU is not plesent (have the tee shirt) That for me was one of the reasons that I began to learn and why I will continue to do so.
Body gaurds in general are on the look out to protect their Mark( but some how me thinks that they have put in their time on the mat).
Humbly
pj0 -
BACK TO BASICS wrote:Bambi I trained under Andy for a couple of monthes back in 2000 just before Ballymun closed down AND THINGS GOT A BIT HAIRY
I wouldnt know you so. I was long gone by 2000, as were most the original black belts in that club.BACK TO BASICS wrote:As for different opinions on Andys Style well --I got a scar about six inch long and a hernia directly from the man himself! SOME FACE SLAPPING because I handed over a bokken the wrong way ?Disagree all you want That is why Andy son got broad sided by Noel on the mat(and why noel got himself gated)
And all this is good or comendable?? I know I'm super happy that i picked long term injuries back then that limit my training options now, all thanks to that macho mentality.
Have a look at this
article, it might explain another way of looking at that kind of environment:
On a pedantic note: "sensi" is spelt sensei and i guess you mean "shinai" when you say "shini"
cheers
Oisín0 -
Sparks,You know, someone probably should point out at this stage that not every martial arts school is there purely to train people to beat the living snot out of each other and that only those who want to hurt other people need apply... otherwise, this thread (and the billion other repetitions of it that show up on a hundred other boards going right back to the first postings on rec.martial-arts) will probably convince them that martial arts are just thuggery refined,
I think something being "thuggery refined" is dictacted by someones motivations and also by their honesty with themselves. I think something like boxing, that is refined to focus purely on the combat sport itself isnt thuggery. Maybe this isnt what you are getting at though...instead of being an excellent way to stay fit, agile, flexible and healthy well into old age; as well as being a wonderful way to develop mental focus and clarity of mind.There's a reason the best professional bodyguards in the world are quiet lads who almost never end up in a serious fight...
PJThe whole thread kicked off because of different views on AikiDo (TRADITIONALY A NON AGGRESSIVE ARTlook up the meaning of AiKiDo) :
BambiAnd all this is good or comendable?? I know I'm super happy that i picked long term injuries back then that limit my training options now, all thanks to that macho mentality.0 -
And all this is good or comendable?? I know I'm super happy that i picked long term injuries back then that limit my training options now, all thanks to that macho mentality.
Sorry Bambi but you have lost me here? TO be clear I dont agree with TheIdea of beating students around the place ,I dont recall even hinting at it! My point was that it Happened .End of. Thanks for the spell check.
ASK YOUR SELF WHY MOST OF THE DANS LEFT THE CLUB?
As for Macho I left the dojo Because of the way that things were going
By stating what happened i was just highlighting the hard ness of that style from that dojo.
Please chill . BY the way try talking to Jp and his younger brother and see if a kid getting his balls in a pair of pilers is on the grading syllabus( 15 years old) to much for me thanks!
was your strange sensei the same person that i HAD THE MISFORTUNE to train under or were you one of the sheep blindly following the masters every word?
well grass hopper?0 -
Back to basics, it's next to impossible to make any sense of your posts. Would it kill you to read over what you write instead of just smashing the keyboard like a four year old with too much sugar.0
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Mick your name doesnt even make any sense and you are not an english teacher so you have no business telling backtobasics what way he should write his posts so mind your own business. i had no problem reading what he had to say.0
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TwoKingMick wrote:Back to basics, it's next to impossible to make any sense of your posts. Would it kill you to read over what you write instead of just smashing the keyboard like a four year old with too much sugar.
Try reading a little in to the thread before you mouth off ! I am just getting to grips with the pc sorry if your lack of understanding is holding you back.
ANY references in my posts were for Bambi who is miffed because we disagree on the style of a single dojo. people and events were mentioned so that Bambi would understand .( Hope your still with the program)
Bambi has shown his disaproval with the mis use of "pedantic" Yawn
Has MMA affected you mental skills? IS IT BECAUSE IT IS OUT SIDE OF YOU LIMETED TOPIC MMA???? WOULD YOU LIKE SOME
PICS TO COLOUR IN AS WELL
Pick your knuckles up and walk upright (AND I WILL TYPE SLOW SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND)
Black belt dave. Thanks for the support at least some has understood the posts.
as ever
pj0 -
BACK TO BASICS wrote:GROW UP
ANY references in my posts were for Bambi who is miffed because we disagree on the style of a single dojo. people and events were mentioned so that Bambi would understand . ( Hope your still with the program)
Bambi has shown his disaproval with the mis use of "pedantic" Yawn
pj
Sorry i have'nt replied, Was over in blighty getting to do some training..funfunfun. I'm not at all miffed at you. I just got the impression that you considered that all the incidents you mentioned were in some way positive or desirable in a club. I see now you don't. but, like twokingmick, im having a little difficulty following your train of thought.
As for being a pedant, which i think is what you're pointing out: Its probably true but this forum is in written format so people will judge you on what you write. Therefore, repeatedly mispelling common MA terms such as "sensei" can give the impression that you aren't very familiar with the subject matter at hand. I was just pointing it out.BACK TO BASICS wrote:GROW UP
As for Macho I left the dojo Because of the way that things were going
By stating what happened i was just highlighting the hard ness of that style from that dojo.
pj
fair point, but I dont think its fair to use that club as an example of how tomiki aikido is taught or trained. Im sure other other tomiki clubs would not behave in the manner you describe. Though as you said the style is quite different to most other aikido styles and has some nice simple techniques that could be very suitable for self defence. I was reminded of this over the last few days training in an FMA club where many of the techniques were precisely like some of the basic randori applicatons of the tomiki style. Felt a bit weird to see/do them after all these years in the most unexpected of places0 -
[[PHP]QUOTE=Bambi]Sorry i have'nt replied, Was over in blighty getting to do some training..funfunfun. I'm not at all miffed at you. I just got the impression that you considered that all the incidents you mentioned were in some way positive or desirable in a club. I see now you don't. [/PHP].
Bambi I have trouble spelling due to dyslexia ! and to assume I am not up to speed on my training because of it is unfair! THANKS
Sorry if I gave the idea that training in the "harsh style "was my idea of a fun time, it was not.
I did however develop a deep admiration for the art of aikido ,that is why i switched dojo's. and forged haead with the training.
I made a few points about the type of training that I underwent so people reading would see that not all dojos teach the softly softly way!some teach total crude ( every body is ready to fall/roll even before you touch them)
"AiKiDo is an internal martial art" and for those too stuck in their own world to grasp what that means try reading" THE [POWER OF INTERNAL MARTIAL ARTS) By B K Frantzis.
This may open a few eyes and minds.
cheers
pj0 -
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columok wrote:There is no real threat of actually being hit in an Aikido dojo, so one never has to face the heart-racing terror of someone really coming at you in an unpredictable manner. When the time comes to actually use all that training, you are a so unused to physical contact that you buckle under pressure.The only situations, IMHO, that Aikido could work in would be against a much, much much inferior attacker (drunk-falling about and lunging with big slow punches). An attacker like this, you could easily run away from- hence it lacks effectiveness.
On a related note, I also practise ju-jitsu, and I believe that every martial art can be effective. I have seen aikido techniques work on ju-jitsu practitioners, and I have seen ju-jitsu techniques work on aikido practitioners. It depends on the level and dedication of one's training.
I agree with you in saying that the effectiveness of any given martial art as concerns oneself depends on the standard of instruction that one receives. There are great dojos and terrible dojos in every martial art.
However, I would not agree in saying that the instruction *you* received was lacking. Unless I'm mistaken (which is entirely possible as I don't have the best memory for names and faces), I've met and practised with some of your instructors. I would consider them to be brilliant teachers. I have also attended aikido courses, gradings, and summer school with you.
I find it very hard to understand why you are posting the kind of derogatory remarks contained in this thread. So you can't get aikido to work for you, and you don't enjoy it anymore. Well, that's life - it happens. It's hardly the end of the world. *smile* But why try to deter people who are interested in learning aikido?
[Edited for spelling -Estelindis.]0 -
I doubt that anyone who has trained under Sensei Rogers in Pearse St. would agree! *grin* When we don't guard, he hits us (or sometimes shows us he can hit us). When he attacks so that we can defend, there's no doubt that his strike could cut right through us.(I realise that you say you practised five days a week for three years. But I can't help but wonder, with whom? I thought aikido was only run in UCD twice a week?)On a related note, I also practise ju-jitsu, and I believe that every martial art can be effective. I have seen aikido techniques work on ju-jitsu practitioners, and I have seen ju-jitsu techniques work on aikido practitioners.It depends on the level and dedication of one's training.I agree with you in saying that the effectiveness of any given martial art as concerns oneself depends on the standard of instruction that one receives. There are great dojos and terrible dojos in every martial art.However, I would not agree in saying that the instruction *you* received was lacking. Unless I'm mistaken (which is entirely possible as I don't have the best memory for names and faces), I've met and practised with some of your instructors. I would consider them to be brilliant teachers. I have also attended aikido courses, gradings, and summer school with you.I find it very hard to understand why you are posting the kind of derogatory remarks contained in this thread. So you can't get aikido to work for you, and you don't enjoy it anymore. Well, that's life - it happens. It's hardly the end of the world. *smile* But why try to deter people who are interested in learning aikido?
Youre kind of seeing what Im saying as a personal attack on you or Aikido. Far from it. The thread asked about the self defence benefits of Aikido and I gave my honest opinion from my experience. I have fought amateur MMA/Vale Tudo twice now and I train MMA/BJJ. I practice against full resistance and I fully believe that unless you train against full resistance then you wont be able to apply your training against real people. Its not like I have a gripe or bitterness about Aikido or its people. I do however think that Aikido like pretty much every traditional martial art trains wrong.
To repeat, its not the art or the people its the training method.
Cheers and Best Wishes,
Colum0 -
columok wrote:The atemi in question do not develop the skills of timing required to deal with real strikes. If you really believe that you are developing these skills then get a boxer to throw a few jabs at you or rather ask your sensei (hope she's well! ) to step up with a boxer and see how they get on. I dont doubt the ferocity of the attacks but I dont feel that as training methods go they instill the necessary skills to deal with real combat.
Is that because aikido is inferior to ju-jitsu or boxing? Certainly not. It's because I'm a low grade (with only some experience) and he's a high grade (with lots of martial arts and real combat experience). He and my aikido instructor teach me the necessary skills to deal with real combat. Although their styles are very different, they have many common elements, all of which are of practical importance in real combat. Some will take longer than others to develop - a lot longer in many cases concerning aikido! But, however long it takes for me to understand those principles in even the most limited sense, I'm going to keep trying.It used to be on 4 times a week actually. And i also trained in Pearse St. Since you know me rather than trying to discredit me or invalidate my opinions why not look at what Im saying and see if it strikes a chord. Im not claiming to have been at master level, I just stated my experience.Have you tried Aikido or Ju-Jitsu on a fully resisting opponent. Try them on a judoka, bjj fighter, boxer or thai fighter and see how they work. I regularily try my MMA on the above and prove it works. I refine my techniques and develop skills in a pressure tested environment and not a vacuum like most TMA people. Real combat is not a vacuum. Why practice in one?I think there are great training methods and poor training methods. You can have the best teachers in the world and if they arent using proper training methods then the MA will never be effective.Nice to talk to you again. Hope everything is going well in your training and in the rest of your life!Youre kind of seeing what Im saying as a personal attack on you or Aikido. Far from it.The thread asked about the self defence benefits of Aikido and I gave my honest opinion from my experience. I have fought amateur MMA/Vale Tudo twice now and I train MMA/BJJ. I practice against full resistance and I fully believe that unless you train against full resistance then you wont be able to apply your training against real people. Its not like I have a gripe or bitterness about Aikido or its people. I do however think that Aikido like pretty much every traditional martial art trains wrong.
In the case of aikido, you found that it wasn't effective for you in a self defence situation. But it might be effective for someone else. That person won't know unless they try it. Of course, they're free to try Brazilian ju-jitsu too. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone extolling the virtues of that art. We've done a bit in our ju-jitsu classes in Maynooth, and it looks and feels very effective. But, even if I hadn't found it to be effective, I would assume there was effectiveness to be found, and that anyone interested in the art should look for themselves.
God bless and be well!0 -
Colum pretty much summed up every argument before on this thread so I'll let him deal with any disagreements, but I will comment on this:on a board where martial arts are discussed, it's best not to say negative things about other arts. Best just to say positive things about one's own
Why? If we were discussing Evolution, should I not say anything bad about Lamarckian principles? Only extol the positive side of Dawkin's Selfish Gene? Of course not, Lamarckian Evolution is flawed and it's worthwhile pointing it out and reasoning why it is so.
Now, if some martial art is propagating falsehoods about how to defend oneself (which is the most common question beginners ask on this forum) why shouldn't we - as people who practice day in day out against others who are fully uncooperative, as an opponent on THE STREET would be - point out which training methods are flawed when it comes to developing the skills necessary to defend oneself.
In any branch of science, everything is open to review by other scientists. If a theory can't be falsified, no-one would consider it. The same with any skill based sport, to show something works, you must show it time and time again against someone who is cooperating. Yet Martial Arts in general seem to be different about this.
A few examples:
"Aphids can't digest protein" - Scientists test this statement, find out some aphids can digest protein. Now further study is being taken to find out how, and what proteins. The statement can be supported or rejected through testing.
"The faster the penalty kick is taken, regardless of direction, the higher a probability of scoring" This statement can be tested by footballers in a training environment, or throughout a season of the premiership. We can find out what's true by testing.
"This method will pin your opponent better than you're old method" Get 50 guys, hold them down using both methods, see which one works better. You've tested it. Now take the better method, and refine it so it works a higher percentage, tweak and test, tweak and test.
"I can't do pressure points on you because you're energy isn't in tune" The effectiveness of pressure points can't be tested because you're not allowing your statement to be proved false. Reason tells us we should ignore that statement.
"I couldn't find any conspiracy going on, they've obviously covered their tracks perfectly" The Conspiracy can't be proved false because the conspiracy advocate sees a lack of evidence for the conspiracy as proove that the conspiracy is on going. If asked what the world would be like without the conspiracy and it's cover up, they'd be eventually forced to admit that it would be the exact same as with the conspiracy.
Very longwinded reply I know but I wanted to be thorough. If something isn't tested repeatedly, don't accept it's effectiveness.
Hope this helps,
Colm0 -
CAVEAT: Just before I start I want to be clear that I refer only to the self defence capabilities of martial arts. MA obviously have other benefits but I'm disregarding them here!Is that because aikido is inferior to ju-jitsu or boxing? Certainly not. It's because I'm a low grade (with only some experience) and he's a high grade (with lots of martial arts and real combat experience). He and my aikido instructor teach me the necessary skills to deal with real combat. Although their styles are very different, they have many common elements, all of which are of practical importance in real combat. Some will take longer than others to develop - a lot longer in many cases concerning aikido! But, however long it takes for me to understand those principles in even the most limited sense, I'm going to keep trying.
The principles taught in Aikido, Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Kung Fu etc are the exact same as those taught in Muay Thai, Judo, Boxing, BJJ and MMA. Their application through training is what differs. Look at early UFC to see the difference between Muay Thai and Karate or TKD. They teach the same ideas (punching, kicking and blocking) but they train differently. As a result Muay Thai is infinitely more effective. They train with full resistance and discard anything that doesnt work. Karate and TKD dont train this way and as such dont produce fighters of the same calibre. Real opponents will be resisting fully so pressure tested martial arts/combat sports understand this and train accordingly. TMA dont seem to grasp this.But, however long it takes for me to understand those principles in even the most limited sense, I'm going to keep trying.'m not trying to discredit you. Honestly. I'm trying to reconcile your knowledge to my knowledge. What I understood was that there were two classes on per week last year. Since you gave up aikido some way into the last academic year (if I'm correct - tell me if not), that would have meant that for at least a period of your training, it was only on twice a week. This is why I brought the point up in the first place. As I say, I have no interest in discrediting you.Yes. I have tried. Often, their resistance stops me from doing the technique I want. There are other techniques that could be tried (which might work better on an opponent resisting in a particular way), but there's little point in trying something other than the technique in question at a level so low as mine (since reversal won't come for years).Surely part of being a good teacher is having correct knowledge to impart?
Also you can be a great teacher but if you are rigidly adhering to poor teaching practices then your students will not learn. I think with many TMAs you have great teachers adhering to archaic training practices that do not develop the skills they set out to develop.I really think that, on a board where martial arts are discussed, it's best not to say negative things about other arts. Best just to say positive things about one's own. There are many arts that one will not have the chance to witness the effectiveness of (for whatever reason), but it's only fair to assume that there is effectiveness there.But, even if I hadn't found it to be effective, I would assume there was effectiveness to be found, and that anyone interested in the art should look for themselves.
Cheers,
Colum0 -
Colm_OReilly wrote:If we were discussing Evolution, should I not say anything bad about Lamarckian principles? Only extol the positive side of Dawkin's Selfish Gene? Of course not, Lamarckian Evolution is flawed and it's worthwhile pointing it out and reasoning why it is so.
Now, if some martial art is propagating falsehoods about how to defend oneself (which is the most common question beginners ask on this forum) why shouldn't we - as people who practice day in day out against others who are fully uncooperative, as an opponent on THE STREET would be - point out which training methods are flawed when it comes to developing the skills necessary to defend oneself.
At no point is it necessary to rubbish another martial art simply because one can't do it. For instance, I am very poor at judo. That's okay. But I know that judo teaches extremely useful and effective principles, and hence feel no need to rubbish it to others.
However, science is different. To use your example, we don't find inheritance of acquired characteristics in some people and not in others. Hence, it is useful to get rid of outmoded Lamarckian ideas, whereas it is not useful to tell people not to practise other arts.If something isn't tested repeatedly, don't accept it's effectiveness.0 -
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At no point is it necessary to rubbish another martial art simply because one can't do it
When people ask what's effective in SD, I'm going to go with what has been proven time and time again, and those are the ones with solid training methods. The martial arts that can prove themselves do so all the time, almost without even questioning it. It becomes the essense of what they do.
People who train like this are almost always willing to spar, pummel, or roll with anyone, try and see what works for them, and learn from that.
1) You can only find out what works for you through active resistance training. I've a good knee ride game because it suits my body type. Columok likes to work more from side control. The delivery system and training methods are the same when we train, yet our individual styles are different. To give another example, Muhammad Ali was great at keeping people at bay with his jab, that was his style, Frazier was more of a fighter, getting in close and working hooks to the head and body, that was his style. Both of their styles developed through working the same fundamental principles and training method, namely boxing.
2) Those people in MA's that aren't effective, and haven't a competitive element refuse to train with anybody who's questioning them. They'll either ignore the question, state it's too dangerous to try, say it's against their principles or make up some other excuse.Something that doesn't work for one might work for somebody else (for a wide variety of different reasons that need not reflect badly on the art itself).
True, that will depend on the individuals body type, athletic and mental disposition etc. However, the point we are trying to make is that in arts that have a skill based training method an individuals style will emerge as they train. In other arts, and I'm sad to say 95% of them, people aren't training realistically so they can make excuses everytime they fail. ("Oh I'm not high enough yet" "My chi was off" "If it happened again..." etc ad nauseum)But there are great masters in all martial arts who can show-case the effectiveness of their disciplines, and do so repeatedly
Where? In seminars with their students (all like minded individuals). Or do they enter Vale Tudo (portugeuse literal translation=anything goes), MMA competitions? Would they be willing to spar me if I asked them?
Peace Out,
Colm0 -
Colm_OReilly wrote:When people ask what's effective in SD, I'm going to go with what has been proven time and time again, and those are the ones with solid training methods. The martial arts that can prove themselves do so all the time, almost without even questioning it. It becomes the essense of what they do.Those people in MA's that aren't effective, and haven't a competitive element refuse to train with anybody who's questioning them. They'll either ignore the question, state it's too dangerous to try, say it's against their principles or make up some other excuse.In other arts, and I'm sad to say 95% of them, people aren't training realistically so they can make excuses everytime they fail. ("Oh I'm not high enough yet" "My chi was off" "If it happened again..." etc ad nauseum)
That's the difference between an excuse and an explanation. One is made up and the other is true. If you assume that most practitioners of other martial arts systematically lie in order to protect themselves from the horrid "truth" that there's nothing to their art, then you're not treating them as equal human beings in the first place, and, I'm sorry to say, will probably never see the point in the disciplines that they're studying. (Mind you, I hope you *do* come to see the point. It just doesn't seem very likely.)Where? In seminars with their students (all like minded individuals).Or do they enter Vale Tudo (portugeuse literal translation=anything goes), MMA competitions? Would they be willing to spar me if I asked them
Ultimately, my differences with you stem from this belief: only when someone trains longer, and achieves a higher standard, than the best practitioner of any given art, can they cateorically state that this art is useless. But, when they do, they will have no reason to do so, because they will know that it's not.
As previously stated, I include your art in this. It is you who does not include mine. That's fine by me - you're entitled to your opinion. But I still think that martial artists should stop trying to deter people who are interested in another art simply because they do not like that art themselves. Live and let live. Freedom and variety bring about human flourishing.0 -
But it could be better. If you kept a more open mind, you could learn from other disciplines and adapt their strengths to the strong points your technique already possesses.
Boxing is the same. To be good at not getting hit in boxing you have to get a boxer to try and hit you. You can do as much pad work as you like and as much shadow boxing but to be good at the not getting hit bit you have to spar. Simple as that. Combat is no different- if you dont spar you dont develop skills. Judo people spar and develop skills. Its not closed minded to say that a boxing gym that doesnt spar or a rugby team that doesnt train against a resistance is gonna lose in competition. So I ask why is combat any different? What is different in Aikido, Karate or other TMA from Boxing, Judo, MMA, Rugby et al?Even leaving aside the fact that there are so many different standards of competition, with so many different rules sets, that a common standard for measuring all martial arts is nearly impossible to establish, beating an opponent can be a result of one's training, without being the real, central aim.Excuses tend to be the province of people who are preoccupied with their own image. Surely someone who doesn't care whether they win or lose in a competition, but cares rather for the principles that they learn (which help them to become a more effective combatant) wouldn't be interested in making excuses about their losses (which would blind them to the real lesson) but in explaining why it happened.
I recommend the following article by Matt Thornton on the issue of training motivations and image vs. performance. At the least its an interesting thought provoking article.Why doesnt everyone train alive?
This is pretty fundamental to what I (and Colm and others believe) about training. At least after reading it, agree or not , you'll understand where we are coming from.
Take it easy and enjoy the bank holiday.
Colum0 -
Estilindis,
Nice posts! It's always great to read conherent arguments on forums, rather than the 99% tripe that's usually posted. (NOTE: I post a lot of tripe too, but I try not to on this forum!)You've already decided what's effective and what isn't
I don't decide what works. The act of combat will determine whats effective. Anything that's ineffective won't work, but techniques that have validity will reoccur again and again. It has nothing to do with me, or my coach, or Straight Blast Gym. Without us, what is and isn't effective in combat would still be the same.you could learn from other disciplines and adapt their strengths to the strong points your technique already possesses
I always try to learn from other people. I visit Judo clubs, go to wrestling coaches, ask coaches overseas, and invite other ma practitioners to train with me. Yet if someone wants to show me something, they have to either show it to me in combat (against resistance) or allow me to test it in combat. If someone wanted to show me a quicker way to work, I'd want to test it, if they wanted to show me a faster way of typing, I'd have to try it out. Why should SD be different?You believe that any martial art that isn't competitive can't be effective because it doesn't give a practitioner the chance to prove their worth by beating someone else
If a martial art isn't competitive the martial art itself is never questioned. I'm not really interested in an individual practioner. If something isn't continually tested, subject to a reality check, then the practioners are free to make up techniques, and since they're never tested, they can never be disproven.Again, you simply assume that students of these arts are too stupid or too trusting to examine anything in their arts with an open mind
People generally believe authorities, and take second hand information as fact. Now, probably (I've no data to back this up) most of the time this is okay. If you ask your lecturer a question, you expect them to give you the best knowledge. If you ask a stranger for the time, you don't expect them to lie. If you hear a story, you'll generally accept it as true. It takes an awful lot of resources to investigate every claim made by everyone.
Furthermore, being part of a group, any group, involves you submitting a part of your individuality to the collective. To be part of that group, you have to accept the groups believes, ideas, and norms. At least to an acceptable degree. (acceptable as defined by the group). Also questioning authority is difficult to do. The fear of embarassment far outweighs the benefits in a lot of people's minds. This happens in my classes too. When I ask the group I usually don't receive any answer, yet 90% of the time when I ask an individual, one on one, they'll give me feedback.
It's very very difficult to cultivate an atmosphere of inquisition. I'm not even sure I succeed in creating that in my clubs, but I'm striving towards it. I never claimed anyone was stupid, or too trusting.
Can you answer my question on where these masters prove themselves?But, personally, I think that the instructor with nothing to prove is far more likely to have actual skill than the one itching to prove him or herself.
I'm not out to prove myself. I'm out to better myself. So if I'm training with someone we need to have the energy exchange you see in combat to develop. I've no emotional attachment to "my art" vs "his art", but we do need to spar in order to discover the truth.
It's worthwhle I feel to discuss the motive I have behind competition. Competition comes from the Greek "to search together". To battle against another was known as "agone" which is where we get our word for agongy. It's the searching definition that's what I'm doing when I train with people. I've no desire to be the best in the world, or hold any title belt. I just want to discover what works for me, in real combat. I hoe that explains my position a bit better.only when someone trains longer, and achieves a higher standard, than the best practitioner of any given art, can they cateorically state that this art is useless. But, when they do, they will have no reason to do so, because they will know that it's not
I'm sorry but I don't understand this statement, can you explain it further please?
Nice talking to you,
Peace
Colm0 -
columok wrote:I dont agree with teaching "hard" or "soft" styles of martial arts as I feel they are the same thing.
Colum
I must disagree with you here as hard and soft martial art art styles are inherently different , and there is a different emphasis on both
soft styles tend to favour ki development / internal energy ( aikido being an example) and generally would try to utilise an opponents energy against itself
Hard styles tend to emphasise physicall attributes and physical training
and would try and meet force with force Thai Boxing would be a good example
there is no internal energy training or llittle emphasis place on it .
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Ultimately, my differences with you stem from this belief: only when someone trains longer, and achieves a higher standard, than the best practitioner of any given art, can they cateorically state that this art is useless. But, when they do, they will have no reason to do so, because they will know that it's not "
I do not really understand what your trying to say here , but i think its fair to say that no art is useless , every art has something to offer, and one can say this no matter how long they trained in a particular art,
aikido in my opinion is interesting and has a nice philosphy behind it , utilisation of the opponents energy against themselves, development of internal energy and if these things interest you , aikido is great
for self defence its very limited , in fact it has about as much relevance to self defence as say Irish dancing , but that does not necesssarily make it an unworthwhile pursuit , in the same way as learning Irish dancing would not be an unworthwhile pursuit .
And the reason being is simply the way aikido is trained , which the two Colms listed so i will not repeat , with Judo , Thai-boxing and western boxing people are resisting you and trying throw you , punch u etc thus u learn to deal with it , when u get a throw in or a good punch u realise that it has worked despite your opponents non co-operation
in aikido you never get this feeling as there is no resisting opponent or uke
in fact its quite the opposite with ur partner literally throwing themselves for you, u never know would it have worked had they not wanted to be thrown !
Its down to motivation , if u want to learn aikido for the sake of learning aikido go for it
if you want to learn aikido for self defence or to be able to fight i would think again , to do this i would advise people to shop around , go to variety of aikido clubs and other clubs and make your own mind up0 -
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I must disagree with you here as hard and soft martial art art styles are inherently different , and there is a different emphasis on both0
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Whenever I practice a technique I ask myself this - will this work for me in a situation where someone is trying to stop me?
My answer to that question comes from drilling it, then trying it in sparring.
If it doesn't work, I'll ask someone who's good at the technique for more pointers.
Sometimes, a technique won't work for me; it may not suit my body, my style, or I may just not be good enough yet.
The important thing is that I have tested it and know if I can pull it off or not.
If I can't, I put it on the backburner until someone can provide more insight, or discover something through my own studies.
People who accept things on faith, well fair play to them, but they should be honest with themselves and others and say "I don't know, but my teacher said so".
There's a reason all the oldest fighting systems (boxing, wrestling, pankration and muay thai) use similar training methods - because if you're going to fight, be it for money, glory, your country or your life, you won't take anything on faith.
Just my two cents.0
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