[article] 12 Penalty Points without notification...

mike65

This from de paper.

Drivers could be unaware they have penalty points

By Mary Dundon, Political Reporter

HUNDREDS of motorists could be driving around with penalty points and not know it because of a major delay in providing €13 million to computerise the garda system, it emerged yesterday.

This follows the revelation that a Dublin woman received 12 penalty points and was effectively disqualified - before she was even notified of her first speeding offence.

There was over a month between her first speeding offence being caught on camera and the woman getting formal notification of the two penalty points by post. In the meantime, she had accrued 10 more points that effectively disqualified her from driving.

Fine Gael said the case was absurd and will just alienate motorists whom the Government are trying to encourage to drive safely.

"How can Transport Minister Seamus Brennan claim this system is encouraging safe driving when drivers do not even know they have been penalised?" said Fine Gael transport spokesman Denis Naughten.


The main reason for the delay in processing the penalty points is the hold-up in providing €13m to computerise the garda system that inputs the penalty points.

Both the Garda Representative Association and the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors warned this was a major flaw in the system when it was introduced by Transport Minister Seamus Brennan in October 2002.

"But the minister insisted in proceeding with the system and now this flaw is making a total farce law of the penalty points system," Mr Naughten said.

To date, 153,012 motorists have been notified that they have received penalty points and three drivers have been banned from driving after reaching the maximum number of 12.

"But the case of this Dublin woman shows there could be hundreds of other drivers going around with several penalty points and they do not even know it," Mr Naughten added.

A Department of Transport spokeswoman said the main reason for delay in processing the penalty points was the failure to computerise the paper information from the garda divisions to the central computerised centre in Cork.

"There should be a turnaround of about nine days - we are concerned about the delay and are having ongoing discussions with the Department of Justice who tell us it will be up and running by Christmas," the spokeswoman said.

She also said information indicating motorists have to be notified within a week of getting the penalty points was wrong.

"That information on the Comhairle website is incorrect - there is no timeframe within which the penalty points notifications must be served," the spokeswoman added.

Meanwhile, the National Safety Council said it was not ideal to have motorists driving around without knowing they had accrued penalty points.

"But we believe the minister was right to bring it in without having the computer system up and running because it has undoubtedly saved lives," a spokesman added.

The Garda Representative Association said the current system was unsatisfactory. "But ignorance is not and excuse in law and people must be aware that they are breaking the speed limit," GRA spokesman PJ Stone said.

The woman who accrued the 12 penalty points has indicated that she will appeal some of the penalty points in court.

Okay she really should get a notification, after all if you were stopped by at a mobile camera point you'd get one. But the fact this woman managed to get done 6 times in the space of a month suggests she habitually breaks the speed limit.

Mike.

therecklessone

mike65 wrote:

But the fact this woman managed to get done 6 times in the space of a month suggests she habitually breaks the speed limit.

Mike.

Not quite Mike.

According to the report in the Irish Times during the week, she was caught at the same place each time, on the N4 just after she joins the road on her daily commute. She *thought* the speed limit was 60 on the stretch (though she admits being caught doing 65 on at least one occassion) I don't know the stretch of the road exactly, so I'll have to presume that the 50 speed limit is clearly signposted there.

That begs the question: can she f*cking read?

I hope she does appeal, and the judge throws the book at her.

frodi

The issue here is the poor state of traffic signs. Speed limits in partic are poorly posted. I know of a stetch of road near where I live which can be 30 or 40 mph depending on where you approach it from.

beer enigma

The whole area is grey - I was stopped in way back in April by Kerry Garda doing 65 in a 60 zone (downhill on an empty dual carriageway btw).

Held my hands up, paid the fine, but to date have never received notification.....

therecklessone

frodi wrote:

The issue here is the poor state of traffic signs.

Do we know this for certain?

I can't pinpoint the spot where this woman was caught, can you? And if you can, can you say that the signposting there is poor?

I was driving with a friend of mine recently, motoring along at 70 on a dual carraigeway as he is fond of doing then all of a sudden WHAM, he hammers on the brakes to drop to 40 going through a fixed camera.

I says to him "you do realise the speed limit is 60 here, don't you?

"No" he says.

Tom Dunne

therecklessone wrote:

According to the report in the Irish Times during the week, she was caught at the same place each time, on the N4 just after she joins the road on her daily commute. She *thought* the speed limit was 60 on the stretch (though she admits being caught doing 65 on at least one occassion) I don't know the stretch of the road exactly, so I'll have to presume that the 50 speed limit is clearly signposted there.

I would imagine it is coming from the West where the M4 turns into the N4 at the Spa hotel in Lucan. The road bears to the right and there is a fixed camera right opposite the hotel on the Dublin-bound side.

therecklessone wrote:

That begs the question: can she f*cking read?

Exactly. If it is where I am talking about, there are several speed camera signs, a sign indicating end of the motorway and two very large '50' signs to indicate the speed limit. And the speed camera flash is not something you would miss easily. So no, I don't think signs are the problem in this case.

therecklessone

tom dunne wrote:

I would imagine it is coming from the West where the M4 turns into the N4 at the Spa hotel in Lucan. The road bears to the right and there is a fixed camera right opposite the hotel on the Dublin-bound side.

Cheers Tom, it was near the Spa Hotel now you mention it.

cyclopath2001

Sounds like she was going too fast to see the signs.....

Remember, the article was in a MOTORING SUPPLEMENT, these tell motorists what they want to hear, so that they'll read the advertisements.

Tommy Vercetti

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Sounds like she was going too fast to see the signs.....

Remember, the article was in a MOTORING SUPPLEMENT, these tell motorists what they want to hear, so that they'll read the advertisements.

:rolleyes:

BrianD

I have posted on the inadequate state of signage on oyr roads for speed limits. The fact is that every point of entry to a road needs to have the limit posted - this means after EVERY set of traffic lights and after every roundabout, at every road junction. As I previously said if you turn onto the N11 citybound at the set of traffic lights preceeding the Belfield junction there is no speed limit posted. There are numbers painted on the road (nearly worn off) but I don't know what legal standing these have. Therefore 40mph speed checks in this area is extremely dubious. However, I think that every speed limir sign should also have the limit painted on the road surface as well.

The motorist in the article mentioned above seemed to indicate that she did see a 50mph sign but was too busy concentrating on other things. However, the slip road she refers to is some distance from the camera and there is - in this case - plenty of signage.

jlang

BrianD wrote:

As I previously said if you turn onto the N11 citybound at the set of traffic lights preceeding the Belfield junction there is no speed limit posted. There are numbers painted on the road (nearly worn off) but I don't know what legal standing these have. Therefore 40mph speed checks in this area is extremely dubious.

I do agree that there are other places where limits change without adequate signage, but your particular example of may not be one of them as (afair) Foster's Avenue is a 40mph zone. Turning onto the Stillorgan Road (N11) at this point would not bring you through a speed limit change. This particular limit was set by this 1977 S.I. and I think it is still in place, although it will go down to 30mph if the Dundrum-Blackrock QBC is implemented as planned.

BrianD wrote:

The fact is that every point of entry to a road needs to have the limit posted - this means after EVERY set of traffic lights and after every roundabout, at every road junction.

I disagree. At major road-minor road junctions the speed limit usually changes a few meters down the minor road so speed limit signs are not needed on the 40mph major road after each junction. Instead, you see the 30mph signs at the entrance to each estate/minor road, and 40mph looking the other way so the entire junction would be in a 40mph zone.

Smaller speed limit roundels are sometimes placed as repeaters/reminders along roads where limits may be not be intuitive, but I'm not sure what legal standing these have and doubt there is a legal requirement for them.

seamus

jlang wrote:

I do agree that there are other places where limits change without adequate signage,

It's possible to drive from my house in Lucan, to Newland's cross, without seeing a single sign denoting the speed limit on any road. I have a rough of idea of the general traffic flows and density of housing on the route, so I switch between 30 and 40 when called for. My girlfriend is just a learner though and is constantly confused as to what she shoudl be driving at on the route. The problems isn't just adequate notification of change, it's adequate notification in general, and it's not limited to speed limit signs either.

This woman though is obviously just an idiot. That's a notorious and well marked spot. She deserves her banning.

BrianD

but your particular example of may not be one of them as (afair) Foster's Avenue is a 40mph zone. Turning onto the Stillorgan Road (N11) at this point would not bring you through a speed limit change. This particular limit was set by this 1977 S.I. and I think it is still in place, although it will go down to 30mph if the Dundrum-Blackrock QBC is implemented as planned.

I disagree. When you turm off that6 secondary road you move onto a national primary rour (a dual carraigeway at that). You have left one particular route that has a designated speed limit onto another. You need to have a speed limited posted wuth a few metres of the entry point. This should be mandatory. It is not satisfactory to allow people to assume what the speed limit is ... am I still in a 40, wait this is a maon road maybe it's a 60. Hell it could be a 50 or should it be 30 as there is a Uni ahead.

Built up areas such including housing estates are all assumed to be 30. However I should have said that the rooads that I was referring (in my previous posting) are the national and secondary routes (M, N and R routes mainly )that could all potentially be 60mph.

parsi

In Cork turm left off Boreenmanna Road onto the South Link and you can just see (in the trees on one side) the end-of-limit sign....hidden away...

John R

They hide the speed cameras, why not the signs too.

BrianD

I just noticed this morning that there is a 40mph sign on a pole (with other signage) just after the Foster Ave traffic lights. It's there but hardly adequate on a national primary route. I must eat some humble pie.

sweeper4

Exactly. If it is where I am talking about, there are several speed camera signs, a sign indicating end of the motorway and two very large '50' signs to indicate the speed limit. And the speed camera flash is not something you would miss easily. So no, I don't think signs are the problem in this case.

The article mentions she joined at the final slip before the speed camera. That slip is about 500 meters from the camera. Those signs are back further - at the end of the motorway, so she would not have seen those. There is a 50mph sign on the left just as you join the carriageway, but easy to miss as *MOST* people look in their right wing mirror or over their right shoulder when joining from a slip road - I think that is the point she is making.

Just to prove the point therecklessone says he asked his friend if he knew it was a 60mph zone after he braked to 40mph through this very camera!! Looks like this lady is not the only one missing the signs.

therecklessone

sweeper4 wrote:

Just to prove the point therecklessone says he asked his friend if he knew it was a 60mph zone after he braked to 40mph through this very camera!! Looks like this lady is not the only one missing the signs.

Sorry for the confusion, my story was about another road, not the N4.