The Revamped Lansdowne Road - will it happen?

Hairy Homer

PORNAPSTER wrote:

That is one of the stupidest ideas ever. Why the hell should the GAA have to let the IRFU or the FAI use their stadium? That's right its their stadium. Therefore they should have the right to let whoever they want in and keep whoever they want out.

The FAI have never actually formally approached the GAA about using Croke Park. What did they do? They went to the press about it. Great idea lads, try to make the GAA look bad and you'll definately get playing in Croke Park. :rolleyes:

Show me one other country and one other sport that tolerates such a petty-minded, exclusivist and ultimately and inevitably--expensive--approach to sporting infrastructure. I'm not saying there isn't one. Just that I am unaware of it elsewehere.

Your suggestion is like apartheid - or separate development as its apologists put it. The logic of your argument suggests that if there are two or three sports that 'occasionally' need an 80,000 seater stadium, then each sport must have its own such edifice in which much smaller crowds can rattle around for the lesser matches.

Is this the way other countries run their games? Hell no. Stade de France (a kip mind you but it doesn't change the argument I'm making) is designed to host athletics as well as soccer and rugby. They roll in extra seating when they don't need the running track.

Munich's Olympic stadium is home to Bayern Munich.

Most of the new stadia built in Portugal for the Euro 2004 were called Stadio Municipal, implying that they were built with public money for the public good. If people want to have a welly flinging contest in there, they can do.

It's only in Ireland that one set of games is considered so sacrosanct that people who play other games are officially shunned, branded as traitors and excluded from the national sports' premises so that the governing organisation can cut off its own nose to spite its face.

Personally, I don't really want to see soccer or rugby in Croke Park. It's on the Northside. There's nowhere to park that won't give a clamper a wet dream. There's no train station. The buses are a joke. The pubs are all a fair way away and, well, somewhat unsavoury. Lansdowne Road is a much NICER venue.
But I don't think Dublin should have two 80,000 seater stadia. A nice 50,000 all seater such as is planned for Lansdowne will be perfect for most needs. But for the really big games, v New Zealand or England at rugby, or a vital Euro/World Cup qualifier against top opposition in soccer, or while the new stadium is being built, there should be NO reason why Croke Park could not be rented out on a purely commercial basis.

You say ' the FAI has never formally asked the GAA to play in Croke Park' Well, it would be wasting its time while the GAA has a rule which prohibits the playing of 'garrison games' in its premises on its statute books.

This is a stupidly bitter, sterile and useless debate that shouldn't even be happening. The longer it goes on, the more people become embittered by real or imaginary slights.

The ball is certainly in the GAA's court. Personally, I think the FAI and IRFU should give the GAA until the end of this year to remove that useless clause from its rule book and if they don't then FAI/IRFU should enter into binding agreements with Old TRafford and/or Millennium Stadium to play their home games there until such time as Lansdowne Road is built.

Just think of all that money, all that enthusiasm and all the bitterness that would flow across the Irish Sea for those years to join the hordes that 'follow' the Premiership's teams every Saturday because the game at home has been denuded by the lack of co-operation and internecine fighting that simply does not exist in other countries.

There's some idiots in the GAA who would call that a victory.

Big Ears

The Millennium Stadium , would very easy to get as they are always looking to rent it out for matches .(Parma V Barcelona I think was the most recent)

They understand that English football wont really on it once Wembley is re-built so they will want other sources of income .

Id just bec concerned with the number of people going across .
If less people go to Wales than can fit in Dalymount or Thomond Park if its re-developed before Landsdowne Road then obviosly it would be better to play the games at home in tiny stadiums :mad: .

smemon

Big Ears wrote:

of course they are , its our nationel sports which they want to preserve, just like the language , only they did a much better job .

and GAA is by no means a pub competition . :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :cool:

preserve it for what reason? pride? thats stupid. you cant preserve something forever, times change, people change, sport changes.

its such a poor sport nobody else in the world plays it so why are so proud of it?
about 5m people with 32 teams,its a pub game with one or two people with talent thrown in, even they are wasted beacause its not professional.

Big Ears

smemon wrote:

preserve it for what reason? pride? thats stupid. you cant preserve something forever, times change, people change, sport changes.

its such a poor sport nobody else in the world plays it so why are so proud of it?

about 5m people with 32 teams,its a pub game with one or two people with talent thrown in, even they are wasted beacause its not professional.

for some reason , you having said that I think ill get away with a little flameing , because you are a fecking idiot that knows nothing about soccer or GAA .

I think you're just trying to draw the Flames anyway , so congratulations .

jesus_thats_gre

Einst&#252 wrote: »

Maybe they refuse to have telephones and are therefore uncontactable seeing as Alexander Bell was British? Otherwise they'd jsut be hypocrites...

Excellent contribution... What do you believe is the reason that the GAA will allow other sports and concerts to be held in croke park but not soccer?

eirebhoy

Go away Smemon. shooo!

jesus_thats_gre

Ok bit of a simplified theory.. Eircom cannot refuse to allow a competitor to avail of their services. If the GAA offer the facility whereby their venue can be rented for sporting purposes, surely there has to be something in the law whereby they cannot refuse to rent it to the FAI on the basis that the FAI want to play soccer on the pitch? Especially considering the reason for it and the fact they allow other events to use it.

Imposter

There is so much to say about what smemon has posted but I'll just say that he is one of those bigots that I was refering ot earlier.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

What traditional reasons are these. Do they stem from the fact that soccer is seen as a British sport?

Yes they are. I didn't say I agree with them but they are one element in this discussion. As are the likes of smemon.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The Irish goverment have paid for a large percentage of the renovation work done to Croke Park so far.. This money is taken directly from the public coffers that is filled by tax money.. The goverment should withold the final part of the funding to complete the stand until the GAA agree to do business.

Wrong. The government only gave 40m iirc which is a relatively small percentage of what it cost to rebuild Croker.
They also promised more but thanks to the very sporty Ms. Harney they have since withdrawn this.

There is no room in this country for backward attitude that many members of the GAA have and it is time they realised that the many intelligent people in this country have stopped hating something purely because it is British.

As I have said many times in this debate on these boards that is also wrong. It is a minority of the GAA that have that opinion. A far greater number oppose opening Croke Park at the moment for other more logical reasons. Reasons that noone on this board has yet made any attempt to prove untrue or otherwise unfounded.

Hairy Homer wrote:

It's only in Ireland that one set of games is considered so sacrosanct that people who play other games are officially shunned, branded as traitors and excluded from the national sports' premises so that the governing organisation can cut off its own nose to spite its face.

That attitude is largely in the past. What is this "national sports' premises" you speak of? Surely not Croker! You see the GAA own that premises, not the nation.

The ball is certainly in the GAA's court. Personally, I think the FAI and IRFU should give the GAA until the end of this year to remove that useless clause from its rule book and if they don't then...

That first bit is opinion. My opinion is that if they aren't asked by the FAI or the IRFU why should the ball be in the GAA's court (or pitch even )? And the earliest the rule can be changed is next congress, which will be next year. If it is changed it's likely that a commitee will be in charge of deciding who can of can't use the stadium. Who's to say they won't block soccer and rugby?

jesus_thats_gre

Imposter wrote:

Wrong. The government only gave 40m iirc which is a relatively small percentage of what it cost to rebuild Croker.
They also promised more but thanks to the very sporty Ms. Harney they have since withdrawn this.

What has been the total cost of the redevelopment?



http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0565/D.0565.200304160011.html

Mr. O'Donoghue: The Government has provided financial support totalling €69.84 million up to the end of last year to the Gaelic Athletic Association towards the redevelopment of Croke Park.

The GAA, at the end of November 2002, submitted an application for an additional €39.5 million in funding for Croke Park.

Mr. O'Donoghue: In respect of Croke Park, €69.8 million has been allocated in funding to the GAA to date, of which €67.9 million has been paid.





http://www.gaa.ie/page/croke_park.html

The total cost for the three-sided development, which will result in a capacity of 79,500, has been estimated at £110 million,



So the goverment has paid for over half.. Maybe you should remove the Wrong from your previous post..

Imposter

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The total cost for the three-sided development, which will result in a capacity of 79,500, has been estimated at £110 million,



So the goverment has paid for over half.. Maybe you should remove the Wrong from your previous post..

I'll admit I thought the redevelopment costs were a lot higher than this.

However, this 110 (pounds) is only an estimate and based on 3 sides (although admittedly the development of the Hill should be significantly cheaper to the other stands) but calculated before anything other than the Cusack was built.

I'd like to know what the final cost is(or will be) and i'd be pretty sure it's a multiple of the 140m ish €.

cournioni

Hairy Homer wrote:

Show me one other country and one other sport that tolerates such a petty-minded, exclusivist and ultimately and inevitably--expensive--approach to sporting infrastructure. I'm not saying there isn't one. Just that I am unaware of it elsewehere.

Your suggestion is like apartheid - or separate development as its apologists put it. The logic of your argument suggests that if there are two or three sports that 'occasionally' need an 80,000 seater stadium, then each sport must have its own such edifice in which much smaller crowds can rattle around for the lesser matches.

Is this the way other countries run their games? Hell no. Stade de France (a kip mind you but it doesn't change the argument I'm making) is designed to host athletics as well as soccer and rugby. They roll in extra seating when they don't need the running track.

Munich's Olympic stadium is home to Bayern Munich.

Most of the new stadia built in Portugal for the Euro 2004 were called Stadio Municipal, implying that they were built with public money for the public good. If people want to have a welly flinging contest in there, they can do.

It's only in Ireland that one set of games is considered so sacrosanct that people who play other games are officially shunned, branded as traitors and excluded from the national sports' premises so that the governing organisation can cut off its own nose to spite its face.

Personally, I don't really want to see soccer or rugby in Croke Park. It's on the Northside. There's nowhere to park that won't give a clamper a wet dream. There's no train station. The buses are a joke. The pubs are all a fair way away and, well, somewhat unsavoury. Lansdowne Road is a much NICER venue.
But I don't think Dublin should have two 80,000 seater stadia. A nice 50,000 all seater such as is planned for Lansdowne will be perfect for most needs. But for the really big games, v New Zealand or England at rugby, or a vital Euro/World Cup qualifier against top opposition in soccer, or while the new stadium is being built, there should be NO reason why Croke Park could not be rented out on a purely commercial basis.

You say ' the FAI has never formally asked the GAA to play in Croke Park' Well, it would be wasting its time while the GAA has a rule which prohibits the playing of 'garrison games' in its premises on its statute books.

This is a stupidly bitter, sterile and useless debate that shouldn't even be happening. The longer it goes on, the more people become embittered by real or imaginary slights.

The ball is certainly in the GAA's court. Personally, I think the FAI and IRFU should give the GAA until the end of this year to remove that useless clause from its rule book and if they don't then FAI/IRFU should enter into binding agreements with Old TRafford and/or Millennium Stadium to play their home games there until such time as Lansdowne Road is built.

Just think of all that money, all that enthusiasm and all the bitterness that would flow across the Irish Sea for those years to join the hordes that 'follow' the Premiership's teams every Saturday because the game at home has been denuded by the lack of co-operation and internecine fighting that simply does not exist in other countries.

There's some idiots in the GAA who would call that a victory.

It's the GAA's stadium, they can do what they want with it. Who owns the Millenium Stadium? Who owns Stade de France?

por

Imposter wrote:

And the earliest the rule can be changed is next congress, which will be next year. If it is changed it's likely that a commitee will be in charge of deciding who can of can't use the stadium. Who's to say they won't block soccer and rugby?

Exactly, and the motions that did not make it to the last congress in April were not to open Croke Park but to give the decision to open it to a separate committee. It's a well known fact that the president of the GAA is interested in opening the stadium (or changing the decision making mechanism of opening the stadium) for primarily economic reasons, as are many more in the organisation. Only after the FAI or IRFU come to the GAA and say they would like to talk about playing some of their games at Croke Park while Lansdowne is being developed can these member of the GAA who are in favour of change start canvassing other members for a vote to either open the stadium or change the mechanism for opening the stadium. That’s why I reckon the ball is in the FAI\IRFU court.

LFCFan

PORNAPSTER wrote:

It's the GAA's stadium, they can do what they want with it. Who owns the Millenium Stadium? Who owns Stade de France?

Yes, but at least The Millenium Stadium and Stade de France aren't closed to other sports. And what exactly is the rule in the GAA consititution about other sports? Surely if it means all foreign sports than the American Football match that took place there was against the law as far as the GAA was concerned? Also, if the Statium has nearly Eur70M of tax payers money in it then the GAA don't have the right to call the shots completely, unless it was a loan and they intend to pay it all back. It wasn't a loan though, it was a grant and it was our money that they used.

I've also heard the argument from some bigots, that they should allow Rugby because the Irish team is made up of the 32 counties. It's attitudes like this that will keep Ireland in the dark ages when it comes to sport.

Imposter

LFCFan wrote:

Also, if the Statium has nearly Eur70M of tax payers money in it then the GAA don't have the right to call the shots completely, unless it was a loan and they intend to pay it all back. It wasn't a loan though, it was a grant and it was our money that they used.

The new proposed Lansdowne is looking for somthing similar from the government. Are you saying that the government should decide what happens here too, at the expense of any vision Irish Rugby, Soccer or the management team might have?

Dail Eireann also has Irish taxpayers money invested in it. Should any group that hasn't a suitable meeting room be allowed to rent it out whenever they feel like?
The same goes for all the companies that ever received start-up or other grants from the government. Should the public be allowed to use their facilities because of that?

LFCFan

Imposter wrote:

The new proposed Lansdowne is looking for somthing similar from the government. Are you saying that the government should decide what happens here too, at the expense of any vision Irish Rugby, Soccer or the management team might have?

Dail Eireann also has Irish taxpayers money invested in it. Should any group that hasn't a suitable meeting room be allowed to rent it out whenever they feel like?
The same goes for all the companies that ever received start-up or other grants from the government. Should the public be allowed to use their facilities because of that?

Don't be thick. What I'm saying is, the GAA can't sit back and spout on about it being 'their' stadium when they didn't pay for it all. There should be some give and take and stop all this bigotted attitude to 'foreign' sport which at the end of the day we all know means anything 'british'. And we're only talking about using the stadium while Landsdowne road is being redeveloped and if for any reason, the GAA needed to use Landsdowne road (say if Croke Park was unusable for any reason) then they should have the option to rent it as long as it was available. It's called co-operation and it's something sadly lacking in Irish society.

Imposter

LFCFan wrote:

Don't be thick. What I'm saying is, the GAA can't sit back and spout on about it being 'their' stadium when they didn't pay for it all. There should be some give and take and stop all this bigotted attitude to 'foreign' sport which at the end of the day we all know means anything 'british'. And we're only talking about using the stadium while Landsdowne road is being redeveloped and if for any reason, the GAA needed to use Landsdowne road (say if Croke Park was unusable for any reason) then they should have the option to rent it as long as it was available. It's called co-operation and it's something sadly lacking in Irish society.

I'm not being thick as you put it. It's a perfectly valid argument that i'm making and yes they can say it is their stadium, because it is. What they got off the government was an unconditional grant. If anyone's to blame for that it's the government and definitely not the GAA.

Yes I agree with you that the current rule barring foreign sports is bigotted and outdated but there are legitimate reasons why other sports should not be let play in Croker at the moment. Yes cooperation is lacking, but on both sides.

por

If the FAI and IRFU get the finger out and make contact with the GAA in relation to the availability of Croke Park for certain games during the re-developemnt of Lansdowne Rd then I guarantee you Crooke Park will be availabe for when Lansdowne is knocked. Then again if Philip Browne and the IRFU don't bother making contact they can be accomadated by one of their 'sister unions', their loss.

LFCFan

Imposter wrote:

I'm not being thick as you put it.

Sorry, that was supposed to be said in jest. Wasn't slagging you!

Apart from the problem with the residents, what possible legitimate reason could there be for the GAA not renting out a world class stadium to another sport for the duration of it's own stadium being redeveloped? Can you imagine what it would be like watching Ireland play France in the World Cup qualifier in Croke Park? Not only would it be a boost for the team and the fans but it would allow the rest of the world to see what a magnificent stadium the GAA have built and not just keep it for the one sport that by and large is only played in this country.

The money they could make would go along way to helping the GAA to promote GAA around the country. It might actually expose football and hurling to people who may not know about it. If the GAA were any good GAA could be a worldwide, professional sport played by millions, just like Rugby or Soccer. There could be a GAA world cup. It could be an olympic event. Instead it's limited to Ireland and the Irish abroad. How narrow minded and bigotted is that?

cournioni

LFCFan wrote:

Don't be thick. What I'm saying is, the GAA can't sit back and spout on about it being 'their' stadium when they didn't pay for it all. There should be some give and take and stop all this bigotted attitude to 'foreign' sport which at the end of the day we all know means anything 'british'. And we're only talking about using the stadium while Landsdowne road is being redeveloped and if for any reason, the GAA needed to use Landsdowne road (say if Croke Park was unusable for any reason) then they should have the option to rent it as long as it was available. It's called co-operation and it's something sadly lacking in Irish society.

:rolleyes:

You have read too many tabloids my friend. The GAA have never been formally approached by the FAI or the IRFU for the use of Croke Park. Now why should they let the FAI use Croker when they are going to the tabliods spouting shit about the GAA. Giving them a bad name and turning people against the GAA like yourself.

I think that if they actually had to contact the GAA that there might have been some agreement. But no the very much "professional" FAI as they like to see themselves had to do it the hard way.

As Imposter said, The Dail was funded from our taxes. Why don't the FAI ask to use it?! Maybe they might have to go to the tabloids first though.

Imposter

LFCFan wrote:

Apart from the problem with the residents, what possible legitimate reason could there be for the GAA not renting out a world class stadium to another sport for the duration of it's own stadium being redeveloped? Can you imagine what it would be like watching Ireland play France in the World Cup qualifier in Croke Park? Not only would it be a boost for the team and the fans but it would allow the rest of the world to see what a magnificent stadium the GAA have built and not just keep it for the one sport that by and large is only played in this country.

A possible issue would be the timing of the Soccer and Rugby games. Soccer couldn't expect to play between May and the end of September/middle of October and also a possible clash with Rugby on St. Patrick's Day.

The money they could make would go along way to helping the GAA to promote GAA around the country. It might actually expose football and hurling to people who may not know about it. If the GAA were any good GAA could be a worldwide, professional sport played by millions, just like Rugby or Soccer. There could be a GAA world cup. It could be an olympic event. Instead it's limited to Ireland and the Irish abroad. How narrow minded and bigotted is that?

Finance wise that would depend. The stadium needs about 25k people to break even. Say a further rent of 10k people (somewhere around 300k-500k per match). That leaves the rest for the FAI or the IRFU. Would the stadium always have more than 40k there (say 5k people for the other hosting expenses, refs, visiting teams etc.)?

I don't see how playing soccer could expose GAA sports to people who don't play it. It might help with people being less hostile to it but that's hardly an issue that worries too many within the GAA. I can't see the GAA sports going global. It faces way too many possible stumbling blocks for that to happen. Opening Croke park won't help that either.

Big Ears

LFCFan wrote:

.if for any reason, the GAA needed to use Landsdowne road (say if Croke Park was unusable for any reason) then they should have the option to rent it as long as it was available. It's called co-operation and it's something sadly lacking in Irish society.

but the thing is thats a bit unrealistic as the GAA would never need to use Landsdowne .

Semple Stadium is second choice with Parc í Caoimh third .
After that I suppose the Gaelic Grounds or other numourous venues could be used .(But I suppose if they had the option , the GAA might use Landsdowne if the first 3 stadiums wearnt available ) .

So the GAA don't really need Landsdowne at all .

Imposter

Big Ears wrote:

but the thing is thats a bit unrealistic as the GAA would never need to use Landsdowne .

Maybe for an U12 match. I can't imagine it'll be built long enough for GAA sports.

Big Ears

Imposter wrote:

Maybe for an U12 match. I can't imagine it'll be built long enough for GAA sports.

good point although we don't know how long a redeveloped Landsdowne would be .

Hairy Homer

PORNAPSTER wrote:

It's the GAA's stadium, they can do what they want with it.

Can you say that in Afrikaans?

Why should I piss on a GAA official if his head was on fire? It's my piss.

Your argument that 'If only they asked nicely, they might get it?' doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Do you remember this controversy (apologies if you don't have a subscription to Ireland.com) when the idea of a charity soccer match for the victims of the Omagh bomb at the largest available venue in the town (the gaelic grounds) was shot down because of the 'foreign games' rule?

The article, if you can read it, is quite interesting. It makes it clear that although GAA people on the ground were very amenable to the idea 'pressure' was exerted from higher up to the extent that the request from the organisers of the soccer match was withdrawn to spare the local GAA people embarassment. Doubtless some people would infer from this. 'Oh they didn't really ask us at all. They changed their mind. Nothing to do with the GAA's rules' But they would only be fooling themselves.

Mind you, I agree with you in one sense. Soccer/rugby should just accept that the GAA would rather compete than co-operate and get on with building their own stadium which, for some reason, they can agree to co-operate on and share.

But why does the GAA want to maintain a situation whereby something like Croke Park that should be an object of immense national pride is instead a symbol of division, exclusion, presumption and resentment?

LFCFan

PORNAPSTER wrote:

:rolleyes:

You have read too many tabloids my friend. The GAA have never been formally approached by the FAI or the IRFU for the use of Croke Park.

I never said anything about an approach from the FAI. The GAA have made it quite clear that their 'Foreign Sports' rule is there to stay for now so there's no point in the FAI approaching them about using Croke Park. It's that rule that is wrong. That's what I'm arguing about. It's not about whether or not the FAI should be allowed to use it or not. There should be more co-operation between the different sports to the extent that if the FAI were in a hole and needed to rent Croke Park, it should be able to happen. In most civilised countries it wouldn't even be an issue, but in Ireland with the attitide there is towards anything British you end up with the situation where our national sporting body has an actual law stating that 'Foreign' sports can't be played in any of their grounds. How backward is that!

Hairy Homer

Imposter wrote:

That attitude is largely in the past. What is this "national sports' premises" you speak of? Surely not Croker! You see the GAA own that premises, not the nation.

The apostrophe was in the right place. I meant, and indeed I said quite grammatically correctly, the premises of the national sports. You're not going to deny that hurling and football are our national sports, are you? :-)

Imposter wrote:

My opinion is that if they aren't asked by the FAI or the IRFU why should the ball be in the GAA's court (or pitch even )?

Charity soccer match, Omagh, 1998, prevented from being played in the Gaelic grounds. Don't say the GAA has never been asked to share its premises.

por

Hairy Homer wrote:

Charity soccer match, Omagh, 1998, prevented from being played in the Gaelic grounds. Don't say the GAA has never been asked to share its premises.

The rule (not sure what number) regarding the playing foreign sports affects all grounds not just Croke Park, no matter how good a cause it was the only way they could play would be if the rule had been changed at the previous congress, that’s just the way it is and something I personally would like see changed.
Is there not a similar debate among rugby people about letting Rugby League play at IRFU grounds?

LFCFan wrote:

The GAA have made it quite clear that their 'Foreign Sports' rule is there to stay for now so there's no point in the FAI approaching them about using Croke Park.

The rule is not set in stone by any means, it can be changed or the mechanism for opening grounds can be changed at any congress or at a special congress, even a few years ago it was 2 votes away from being changed. Admittedly motions on it did not even make it to congress this year but the people behind those motions will try again next year.
If the FAI/IRFU went to Sean Kelly and the more pragmatic high ranking members of the GAA to discuss the benefits to the all 3 orgs. of making Croke Park available for certain soccer/rugby games then Kelly would have a lot more ammo going to the next congress looking for change.
There was an article a few months ago where Keith Wood said it would be a disaster if Irish rugby games had to be played abroad when Lansdowne was being developed, well Keith why don’t you and your organisation go to the GAA and see if anything can be done about it.

Imposter

Hairy Homer wrote:

The apostrophe was in the right place. I meant, and indeed I said quite grammatically correctly, the premises of the national sports. You're not going to deny that hurling and football are our national sports, are you? :-)

Sorry about that I read that wrong. :eek:

Charity soccer match, Omagh, 1998, prevented from being played in the Gaelic grounds. Don't say the GAA has never been asked to share its premises.

Fair point but then the rule is there and they knew that. The rule definitely needs changing regardless of whether Croke Park is used for soccer or not.

cournioni

My point is, that just because the FAI and the IRFU made a bollox of things doesn't mean that it is the GAA's fault for them not having a stadium. By reading some of you're posts you'd swear that the GAA bombed Lansdowne Road or something.

Big Nelly

PORNAPSTER wrote:

My point is, that just because the FAI and the IRFU made a bollox of things doesn't mean that it is the GAA's fault for them not having a stadium. By reading some of you're posts you'd swear that the GAA bombed Lansdowne Road or something.

Exactly, the start of this thread is about how the FAI/IRFU have f**ked up again and Lansdowne mite be delayed for 2 years! then we get 4 pages of GAA bashing because of that.....

LFCFan

por wrote:

The rule (not sure what number) regarding the playing foreign sports affects all grounds not just Croke Park, no matter how good a cause it was the only way they could play would be if the rule had been changed at the previous congress

What a load of auld tripe. American Football is now an Irish sport is it? The only reason the Omagh charity match wasn't allowed was because it was soccer, a so called English sport (which is bull aswell seeing as soccer is more of a world sport). When it came to Croker being used for an American Football match, where was the rule then? I love GAA and always support my county but there needs to be some major changes in the GAA organisation to bring it in line with the 21st Century.

por

Hairy Homer wrote:

Can you say that in Afrikaans?
Why should I piss on a GAA official if his head was on fire? It's my piss.
Your argument that 'If only they asked nicely, they might get it?' doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Do you remember this controversy (apologies if you don't have a subscription to Ireland.com) when the idea of a charity soccer match for the victims of the Omagh bomb at the largest available venue in the town (the gaelic grounds) was shot down because of the 'foreign games' rule?

Seeing as you brought up Omagh and many would love to dwell on the 'controversy' you mentioned above, how about this gesture.....(2nd story down)

GAA's £750,000 cheque for Omagh
by Joe Oliver
BIG-HEARTED gaelic sports chiefs yesterday handed over a cheque for £750,000 to the fund for the victim's of last year's bomb attack in Omagh.
GAA President, Joe McDonagh, made the presentation during a ceremony at St Enda's club in the devastated town.
The Real IRA attack last August claimed the lives of 29 people and left more than 250 injured. Shocked GAA officials visited the bereaved and attended a number of the victims' funerals.
But clubs throughout Ireland and the US decided they wanted to do more to help and banded together to raise money through a series of events.
The huge donation, which was the second largest to date, brings the total amount raised to around £4m.
Officials from the Donegal and Tyrone boards joined Mr McDonagh and director general Liam Mulvihill for the presentation ceremony.
The Spanish ambassador to Ireland, Jose Maria Sanz Pastor, also attended the handover in honour of the three Spanish students who died in the no-warning blast.
Last year the GAA was heavily criticised for going ahead with the All-Ireland hurling semi-final between Kilkenny and Waterford the day after the Omagh bomb. The organisation was also criticised for refusing to allow a fundraising soccer match to take place at the St Enda's ground.

por

LFCFan wrote:

What a load of auld tripe. American Football is now an Irish sport is it? The only reason the Omagh charity match wasn't allowed was because it was soccer, a so called English sport (which is bull aswell seeing as soccer is more of a world sport). When it came to Croker being used for an American Football match, where was the rule then? I love GAA and always support my county but there needs to be some major changes in the GAA organisation to bring it in line with the 21st Century.

Rule 42
http://www.gaa.ie/files/gaaguide2003.pdf

Rule 42: Uses of Property
(a) All property including grounds, Club Houses, Halls, Dressing Rooms and Handball Alleys owned or controlled by units of the Association shall be used only for the purpose of or in connection with the playing of the Games controlled by the Association, and for such other purposes not in conflict with the Aims and Objects of the Association, that may be sanctioned from time to time by the Central Council.

(b) Grounds controlled by Association units shall not be used or permitted to be used, for Horse Racing, Greyhound Racing, or for Field Games other than those sanctioned by Central Council.

The American Football would have been sanctioned by central council, and is not in conflict with the Aims and Objects of the Association

LFCFan

por wrote:

Rule 42
http://www.gaa.ie/files/gaaguide2003.pdf

The American Football would have been sanctioned by central council, and is not in conflict with the Aims and Objects of the Association

Well, in this case then, the rule can be 'broken' anytime they deem it to be in their best interests.

Hairy Homer

neilbrady79 wrote:

Exactly, the start of this thread is about how the FAI/IRFU have f**ked up again and Lansdowne mite be delayed for 2 years! then we get 4 pages of GAA bashing because of that.....

GAA bashing?

Let me ask you this. If Irish soccer and rugby 'home' matches have to be played in Britain while Lansdowne Road is being redeveloped, who is going to be 'bashed' the most?

The people who normally go to these home games and will now be forced to incur the extra costs of travelling to Manchester, Liverpool or Cardiff to watch them.

And who are these people? The same people who crowd into Croke Park when Dublin is playing in an All Ireland; the same people who cram Thomond Park when Munster play in the Heineken Cup; the same people who fill up Parc Ui Caoimh and Semple when Cork are playing a Munster hurling final. There is little or no apartheid among the fans. Many of them watch all the games and support each team with equal fervour.

Let me say again. The GAA has the absolute right to behave like a Sligo muck farmer preventing ramblers from walking across his fields to get to Ben Bulben. But should they be admired for it?

Hell no. 'Bashing' is the least they deserve.

Hairy Homer

por wrote:

Seeing as you brought up Omagh and many would love to dwell on the 'controversy' you mentioned above, how about this gesture.....(2nd story down)

Guilt trip.

Imposter

Hairy Homer wrote:

GAA bashing?
Let me say again. The GAA has the absolute right to behave like a Sligo muck farmer preventing ramblers from walking across his fields to get to Ben Bulben. But should they be admired for it?

You are right they shouldn't be admired for it but they should not be made the scapegoats (along with the government) by the media, for what is a problem which is primarily as a result of bad decisions made by both the FAI and the IRFU down the years. So looking at it from that pov, the GAA are getting far more bashing from the media than is fair or reasonable to expect over the current debacle surrounding lansdowne and croker and the FAI are coming out of it like they are the victims, which is bs.

cournioni

Hairy Homer wrote:

GAA bashing?

Let me ask you this. If Irish soccer and rugby 'home' matches have to be played in Britain while Lansdowne Road is being redeveloped, who is going to be 'bashed' the most?

The people who normally go to these home games and will now be forced to incur the extra costs of travelling to Manchester, Liverpool or Cardiff to watch them.

And who are these people? The same people who crowd into Croke Park when Dublin is playing in an All Ireland; the same people who cram Thomond Park when Munster play in the Heineken Cup; the same people who fill up Parc Ui Caoimh and Semple when Cork are playing a Munster hurling final. There is little or no apartheid among the fans. Many of them watch all the games and support each team with equal fervour.

Let me say again. The GAA has the absolute right to behave like a Sligo muck farmer preventing ramblers from walking across his fields to get to Ben Bulben. But should they be admired for it?

Hell no. 'Bashing' is the least they deserve.

It's not the GAA's fault that the IRFU or the FAI have no stadium.

Would you let some homeless person that spent all of his money on drink and shite that he didn't need, telling people to let him into your house would you let him in? Well that is exactly what the FAI are doing.

Quit crying to the GAA over something that is the FAI's problem NOT theirs.

por

Hairy Homer wrote:

The people who normally go to these home games and will now be forced to incur the extra costs of travelling to Manchester, Liverpool or Cardiff to watch them.

And whose fault is this? Primarily the FAIs and IRFUs. So if they want to sort it out it's up to them to make contact with the GAA directly about the possible availability of Croke Park, something they have yet to do. Obviously going on the FAIs past record in diplomacy this could be difficult.

Hairy Homer

This is a stupidly bitter, sterile and useless debate that shouldn't even be happening. The longer it goes on, the more people become embittered by real or imaginary slights.

Nothing more to add

cournioni

Well back to reality HH, the FAI are at fault for this. They are just trying to make the GAA their little scapegoat to hide all of their own problems.

StickyMcGinty

por wrote:

Rule 42
http://www.gaa.ie/files/gaaguide2003.pdf


The American Football would have been sanctioned by central council, and is not in conflict with the Aims and Objects of the Association

and allowing soccer is in conflict with their aims and objectives? in the early 1900's i can understand this rule, but now that the GAA has a very strong foothold on the countries youth, surely bringing soccer to croker isnt gonna destroy that! if anything, they'll make a lot of money from it, re-invest it in the grass roots game, and the GAA will become stronger.

pure ignorance is all it is. some people in the GAA need to let go of their highly republican stance when it comes to the general wellbeing of irish sport.

kilkennycat2004

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Well back to reality HH, the FAI are at fault for this. They are just trying to make the GAA their little scapegoat to hide all of their own problems.

This is exactly the point of the original post.
i travelled from Waterford to the match last nite in fact 4 of us from my house did. Friday nite ill be at RSC waterford utd v Kilkenny City. Sunday thurles Kilkenny v Cork Intermediate hurling final.
I have no problems with a sell out soccer match eg . ireland v france being held in Croker eventually. Bit until such time as the work is up & running & I mean really up & running with cranes etc.. the soccer or rugby crowd shouldn't be left darken the doors of Croke park.
If anyone ever writes a book on how not to manage a business the FAI is as good a starting point as any. Rugby are a little better but the club scene is now dying a death while the best populated team in Europe (i.e. Munster) has 1960 standard facilities.
Until they get the finger out with actions rather than words Croker should continue showing well the 2 fingers I suppose
Their track record deserves no better:D

cournioni

VinnyL wrote:

and allowing soccer is in conflict with their aims and objectives? in the early 1900's i can understand this rule, but now that the GAA has a very strong foothold on the countries youth, surely bringing soccer to croker isnt gonna destroy that! if anything, they'll make a lot of money from it, re-invest it in the grass roots game, and the GAA will become stronger.

pure ignorance is all it is. some people in the GAA need to let go of their highly republican stance when it comes to the general wellbeing of irish sport.

Can you imagine the beating that Crokers pitch would take from Rugby and soccer. How could you possibly play a good quality game of hurling on a pitch that has been eaten up by a rugby match or a highly charged game of soccer? You have to take these things into account. The GAA has already had to pay €300,000 this year for repairs to the pitch alone.

Also imagine the amount of organisations trying to get playing in Croker if Rugby and Soccer got playing in Croker. What happens if you turn them down? Will there be another four or five pages in the Sun moaning about what a racist, republican organisation the GAA is then?! :rolleyes:

As I've said before, its the FAI's problem. Not the GAA's problem. As far as I'm concerned I think that the FAI are trying deliberately to give the GAA some bad publicity because they are simply jealous of the facilities that the GAA have at their disposal.

Big Ears

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Can you imagine the beating that Crokers pitch would take from Rugby and soccer. How could you possibly play a good quality game of hurling on a pitch that has been eaten up by a rugby match or a highly charged game of soccer? You have to take these things into account. The GAA has already had to pay €300,000 this year for repairs to the pitch alone.

rugby would **** it up , but im afraid with soccer thats bollix .
They use the same synthetic pitch that they use for training on with my local soccer club .

Plus the FAI could pay for part of these repairs anyway .

jesus_thats_gre

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Can you imagine the beating that Crokers pitch would take from Rugby and soccer. How could you possibly play a good quality game of hurling on a pitch that has been eaten up by a rugby match or a highly charged game of soccer?

Now we are graspig at straws.. For some reason I dont see a few divets in the pitch affecting a game that is played primarily in the air.

jesus_thats_gre

The FAI/IRFU are obviously at fault for the situation they are in. This cannot be disputed and no one is I think. The reason the issue regarding the use of Croke Park keeps coming up is because there is the possibility that the international soccer and rugby teams of the Republic of Ireland may have to play their games in the UK or a sub-standard stadium here in Ireland. This is obviously not an ideal situation and is pretty much an absolute disgrace considering you have one of the most modern stadiums in the world in our capital city..

So we all think, happy days, sure maybe the GAA can come to the rescue and rent their stadium out for match days in the short term. We think, sure they allow Concerts, the Special Olympics and American Football games to be hosted there, so there should be no problem.. But no, the GAA basically have a rule that prevents only sports of British origin from being played in Croke Park.

Surely in modern times, a modern sporting association can forget the wrongs of one country that occurred nearly 100 years ago and throw a life line to the people of the Republic of Ireland who want to be able to attend Soccer and Rugby matches in their home country and not in the UK. Nope, the GAA and their supporters feel that it is perfectly acceptable that they refuse the use of their stadium for Soccer or Rugby games.

Yes they do have the right to say no. But the people of Ireland cannot help but ask why they are saying no when it seems they are open to hosting other events. Cue the GAA and supporters making random excuses instead of standing up and admitting the real reason.

cournioni

Another thing is that the FAI booked Croke Park for Euro 2008 when they knew that the GAA would be in the middle of their season. Well done lads!

And no I'm not grasping straws jtg. It's a fact that the GAA have had to spend over €300,000 already this year on the pitch. Imagine what that would be with rugby and soccer played there. And yes it would affect the game. It mightnt affect it too much but it will still affect it. I'm just making a point.

Regardless, when there are four sports being played in the same stadium it will surely cause a few problems with the pitch. Why should the GAA be pushed into having other sports played there when it causes problems with the pitch? International Soccer is usually played during the GAA season. So that definately would cause problems.

Big Ears

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Another thing is that the FAI booked Croke Park for Euro 2008 when they knew that the GAA would be in the middle of their season. Well done lads!

And no I'm not grasping straws jtg. It's a fact that the GAA have had to spend over €300,000 already this year on the pitch. Imagine what that would be with rugby and soccer played there. And yes it would affect the game. It mightnt affect it too much but it will still affect it. I'm just making a point.

Regardless, when there are four sports being played in the same stadium it will surely cause a few problems with the pitch. Why should the GAA be pushed into having other sports played there when it causes problems with the pitch? International Soccer is usually played during the GAA season. So that definately would cause problems.

yes but the internationel team only plays about 9 games a year(at most) and no more than 6 are ever played at home .

and considering qualifyiers are only in bursts of 2(with fixture dates allowed to be changed ) , it would be easy enough to pick a date that the stadium is not being used for GAA .

I wouldnt mind seeing friendlies played at Dalymount until Landsdowne is ready as temporary seeting is allowed and I would say the FAI could get capacity up to 18,000 .(without redevloping the stadium)

of course this would just be until , Landsdowne is ready .

To me this sounds like a good idea(if the FAI appraoch the GAA with it) , but feel free to pick away at it none the less .

jesus_thats_gre

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Another thing is that the FAI booked Croke Park for Euro 2008 when they knew that the GAA would be in the middle of their season. Well done lads!

And no I'm not grasping straws jtg. It's a fact that the GAA have had to spend over €300,000 already this year on the pitch. Imagine what that would be with rugby and soccer played there. And yes it would affect the game. It mightnt affect it too much but it will still affect it. I'm just making a point.

Regardless, when there are four sports being played in the same stadium it will surely cause a few problems with the pitch. Why should the GAA be pushed into having other sports played there when it causes problems with the pitch? International Soccer is usually played during the GAA season. So that definately would cause problems.

Ok you are not grasping at straws, its just a poor excuse. The FAI and IRFU are more than capable of contributing towards the upkeep of the pitch to compensate for the added wear and tear. The effect it would have on a hurling match is minimal. Soccer, out of any sport played in Ireland, is probably the most affected by a poor surface yet the national tean played on a rugby pitch, what more proof do you want that hurling will not be affected.

This country has one of the smallest populations on any first world country, and is likely the smallest in the EU. Our capital city does not need 2 or 3 50,00+ capacity stadiums. The fact that Croke park is used about 10 weekends a year and rarely ever mid weeks is proof of this. I wonder is the stadium actually run at a loss? The money earned from soccer matches would be massive. They could probably arrange a better than average deal with the FAI and IRFU to get a higher than normal fee.

You argument keeps boiling down to why should they accomadate soccer. But really why should they be so against it. What is so wrong with playing 5/6 games a year in Croke Park. You cannot seriously argue that it will have a negative impact on anything GAA related. International soccer is usually played mid week while the GAA primarily use the stadium during weekends. What if the FAI were able to arrange fixtures so it did not have any negative effect on GAA events at all. Would this be ok with you?