The Revamped Lansdowne Road - will it happen?

LFCFan

is there anyone here who's not a Staunch GAA supporter and who thinks the GAA should keep Croke Part 100% for themselves and not open it up to other sports? It seems that every time I've had this arguement it's always the hardcore GAA heads that refuse to accept soccer or rugby being played in Croker. Nearly everytime, after much heated arguing, I nearly always hear the same thing 'I don't want an English sport in Croker', or 'can you imagine England playing there', or 'would you want a Union Jack flying over Croker' etc etc etc. When this is the arguement against soccer or rugby being played there, it sickens me. It's no wonder Ireland continues to trail behind other EU contries when we've got such biggoted, old fashioned attitudes. I'd expect it from older generations but it seems the hatred towards all things British is alive and well in our generation. It's the 21st century and if 2 sporting bodies can't work side by side without bickering then what chance have we got!!!

kilkennycat2004

LFCFan wrote:

is there anyone here who's not a Staunch GAA supporter and who thinks the GAA should keep Croke Part 100% for themselves and not open it up to other sports? It's the 21st century and if 2 sporting bodies can't work side by side without bickering then what chance have we got!!!

I think most replies are aimed at the inefficiencies of the FAI & to lesser extent IRFU rather than anti-British.
Based on the last 30 years their is little or nothing to trust the FAI on. Remember milltown flower lodge & eircom park to mention three recent examples.
Get Lansdowne started & come back to us should be the GAA motto. :rolleyes:

LFCFan

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

eircom park

It was my understanding that it's the Governments fault there was no Eircom Park? The FAI were even selling season tickets but Bertie stuck his oar in and said he wanted to build the Bertie Bowl and promised the FAI a part of the action. Eircom Park was then null and void. Is this not the case?

Imposter

LFCFan wrote:

is there anyone here who's not a Staunch GAA supporter and who thinks the GAA should keep Croke Part 100% for themselves and not open it up to other sports? It seems that every time I've had this arguement it's always the hardcore GAA heads that refuse to accept soccer or rugby being played in Croker. Nearly everytime, after much heated arguing, I nearly always hear the same thing 'I don't want an English sport in Croker', or 'can you imagine England playing there', or 'would you want a Union Jack flying over Croker' etc etc etc.

I hope that rant wasn't targeted towards me because at no stage in any thread have I suggested anything about being anti-english etc. I have also never said that I wouldn't like to see soccer being played in Croker. In fact in one thread I actually said it would be scceptable provided it didn't hurt the GAA. But I have also said that it could in no way be a full-time thing as Irish sport needs more than one decent stadium for four unbelieveably popular sports.

Now compare that to what is coming from the "Staunch" soccer supporters and that is pure bigotry against the GAA. There are a number of examples of it in this very thread and if the search function was working I would almost guarantee that you could see it in all the other threads that have dealt with this topic.

kilkennycat2004

LFCFan wrote:

It was my understanding that it's the Governments fault there was no Eircom Park?

Some truth in that story yeah but only some.
I'll ask you a question LFCFan
Based on their track record would you buy a used car from the FAI????

kilkennycat2004

Imposter wrote:

Now compare that to what is coming from the "Staunch" soccer supporters and that is pure bigotry against the GAA. There are a number of examples of it in this very thread and if the search function was working I would almost guarantee that you could see it in all the other threads that have dealt with this topic.

Well said Imposter from a staunch fan of both codes

Big Ears

well every time this Stadium debate comes up , I like to mention that Brendon Mentons book (former General secretary of the FAI) , Behind the Green Door , shows all the cock ups in the FAi from the time he started working there (1994 I think) , and the stadium cock ups(there was a few , well alot) are all in there .

Its a good book to read and dosent seem to biased either .

I big problem with the FAI(well the way it was anyway) was people trying to make money out of FAI projects , pretty much sacrificeing the projects for their own gain .

Personnaly I really don't want to see Ireland soccer team playing in Landsdowne much longer .
I really want our own soccer stadium .(a nice 50,000 all seater would do )

also in the book is the reason why the FAI picked the SKY/TV3 deal over RTÉ .(just thought id mention that as a lot of people were pissed off because of the deal) .

por

LFCFan wrote:

is there anyone here who's not a Staunch GAA supporter and who thinks the GAA should keep Croke Part 100% for themselves and not open it up to other sports? It seems that every time I've had this arguement it's always the hardcore GAA heads that refuse to accept soccer or rugby being played in Croker. Nearly everytime, after much heated arguing, I nearly always hear the same thing 'I don't want an English sport in Croker', or 'can you imagine England playing there', or 'would you want a Union Jack flying over Croker' etc etc etc. When this is the arguement against soccer or rugby being played there, it sickens me. It's no wonder Ireland continues to trail behind other EU contries when we've got such biggoted, old fashioned attitudes. I'd expect it from older generations but it seems the hatred towards all things British is alive and well in our generation. It's the 21st century and if 2 sporting bodies can't work side by side without bickering then what chance have we got!!!

Where in this thread have you seen any ant-British reasons for not opening Croke Park , quote them please. I have no problem with Croke Park being used while Lansdowne is being re-developed or with English teams playing in Croke Park at the time, what I have a problem with is people telling the GAA what to do with their stadium. Let the FAI come to the GAA and discuss the availability of Croke Park.
I doubt the IRFU will even approcah the GAA, when asked in a TV interview about what the IRFU would do while Lansdowne was being developed Philip Browne said 'I am sure one of our sister unions will be willing to accomadate us'.

Big Ears

he didnt say it was in this thread .

LFCFan

Big Ears wrote:

he didnt say it was in this thread .

Thank you Big Ears. I hate when people jump on someones' reply without actually reading it correctly. I was talking about the stadium argument in general. I've heard plenty of anti english comments when this argument pops up. I would consider myself more of a soccer fan than a GAA fan but it doesn't stop me supporting my county and I've been to Croke Park on plenty of occassions. Do you think other countries would have this situation?

I just can't see why a brand spanking new Stadium that lies empty for most of the year being 'rented' to another sport is such a big deal? Seems more like good business sense and is a much better way to earn money then having refs blow for full time when there's a draw on the cards, making sure there's another big payday.

Imposter

LFCFan wrote:

Do you think other countries would have this situation?

No because the governments and the relevant associations put these facilities in place. And not just for the elite athletes.

I just can't see why a brand spanking new Stadium that lies empty for most of the year being 'rented' to another sport is such a big deal? Seems more like good business sense and is a much better way to earn money then having refs blow for full time when there's a draw on the cards, making sure there's another big payday.

There are some within the GAA who don't want it for 'traditional' reasons. There are others who don't want it based on perfectly valid arguments like the ones I've been trying to bring up and as yet noone seems to dissagree that they are relevant. There are other GAA people who want soccer played there once it doesn't harm the GAA in any way. And there are others who want soccer played there and some of these have thought it through and think this, but the majority are listening to the media and/or haven't bothered to think it through for themselves. Then there are the soccer (some quite anti-GAA) fans who think that because a little government money went into building the thing that anyone who feels like they want to should be allowed use it.

With the current disputes with the residents there is no way it makes sense to open it to other sports. The residents don't like Saturday games, so how will they react to midweek games as well? Will the GAA have to find alternative venues for their own events if the residents get their way and impose a quota on the number of events to be held there? If they do will this deprieve the GAA of some money that they could have earned from GAA activities in Croke Park (not to mention the problems this would cause within the association)?

por

LFCFan wrote:

Thank you Big Ears. I hate when people jump on someones' reply without actually reading it correctly. I was talking about the stadium argument in general. I've heard plenty of anti english comments when this argument pops up..

So why bring in the anti- English element in the argumnet when none of the pro-GAA posts in the thread were anti-English.

LFCFan wrote:

I just can't see why a brand spanking new Stadium that lies empty for most of the year being 'rented' to another sport is such a big deal?

The big deal is that the FAI have not even contacted the GAA about 'renting' teh stadum.

LFCFan

por wrote:

So why bring in the anti- English element in the argumnet when none of the pro-GAA posts in the thread were anti-English.

The big deal is that the FAI have not even contacted the GAA about 'renting' teh stadum.

The thread has turned into a Soccer in Croke Park thread and I was bringing up the Anti English thing because in my opinion, this is used too often as a reason for not allowing it.

Also, it doesn't matter whether or not the FAI has approached the GAA about renting the Stadium. This discussion is more about whether they should be allowed if they ever did approach the GAA.

As for the residents? How many of them are there from before Croke Park was built? None! So when they moved in they knew what they were getting into. I'm not saying they don't have a right to privacy etc but they can hardly move next door to a national stadium and then complain about it.

Bateman

The residents can be taken on and beaten, the GAA have played more and more games at Croker in the pasy few years. Nothing to suggest they can't be faced/fcalmed down. :rolleyes:

smemon

the bottom line is soccer is a bigger, better sport yet the dummies in the government plough all their money into a 'pub competition' ie gaelic and the gaa.

soccer is a richer, international game that can pay for itself. croke park is wasted as it is. beacuse its use is for an irish game and irish game only, thats why the gaa have a fantastic stadium and the fai have lansdowne.

the government are insulting soccer, trying to place it 2nd behind gaelic which its not. their too biased when it comes to choosing gaa over fai.

Big Ears

smemon wrote:

the bottom line is soccer is a bigger, better sport yet the dummies in the government plough all their money into a 'pub competition' ie gaelic and the gaa.

soccer is a richer, international game that can pay for itself. croke park is wasted as it is. beacuse its use is for an irish game and irish game only, thats why the gaa have a fantastic stadium and the fai have lansdowne.

the government are insulting soccer, trying to place it 2nd behind gaelic which its not. their too biased when it comes to choosing gaa over fai.

of course they are , its our nationel sports which they want to preserve, just like the language , only they did a much better job .

and GAA is by no means a pub competition . :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :cool:

jesus_thats_gre

Imposter wrote:

No because the governments and the relevant associations put these facilities in place. And not just for the elite athletes.

There are some within the GAA who don't want it for 'traditional' reasons.

What traditional reasons are these. Do they stem from the fact that soccer is seen as a British sport?

The fact that they have allowed the special olympics, american football and concerts to take place in the stadium means they are open to the concept of renting out the stadium. Yet they do not allow it to be used for soccer events... It says it all really...

jesus_thats_gre

The Irish goverment have paid for a large percentage of the renovation work done to Croke Park so far.. This money is taken directly from the public coffers that is filled by tax money.. The goverment should withold the final part of the funding to complete the stand until the GAA agree to do business.

There is no room in this country for backward attitude that many members of the GAA have and it is time they realised that the many intelligent people in this country have stopped hating something purely because it is British.

Big Ears

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The Irish goverment have paid for a large percentage of the renovation work done to Croke Park so far.. This money is taken directly from the public coffers that is filled by tax money.. The goverment should withold the final part of the funding to complete the stand until the GAA agree to do business.

There is no room in this country for backward attitude that many members of the GAA have and it is time they realised that the many intelligent people in this country have stopped hating something purely because it is British.

in fairness to the government , they are going to give a nationel soccer stadium as big a grant as Croke Park .(thats any government other than the PD's and the Green Party if they're in by themselves which isnt going to happen .)

Töpher

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The Irish goverment have paid for a large percentage of the renovation work done to Croke Park so far.. This money is taken directly from the public coffers that is filled by tax money.. The goverment should withold the final part of the funding to complete the stand until the GAA agree to do business.

There is no room in this country for backward attitude that many members of the GAA have and it is time they realised that the many intelligent people in this country have stopped hating something purely because it is British.

Maybe they refuse to have telephones and are therefore uncontactable seeing as Alexander Bell was British? Otherwise they'd jsut be hypocrites...

Hairy Homer

PORNAPSTER wrote:

That is one of the stupidest ideas ever. Why the hell should the GAA have to let the IRFU or the FAI use their stadium? That's right its their stadium. Therefore they should have the right to let whoever they want in and keep whoever they want out.

The FAI have never actually formally approached the GAA about using Croke Park. What did they do? They went to the press about it. Great idea lads, try to make the GAA look bad and you'll definately get playing in Croke Park. :rolleyes:

Show me one other country and one other sport that tolerates such a petty-minded, exclusivist and ultimately and inevitably--expensive--approach to sporting infrastructure. I'm not saying there isn't one. Just that I am unaware of it elsewehere.

Your suggestion is like apartheid - or separate development as its apologists put it. The logic of your argument suggests that if there are two or three sports that 'occasionally' need an 80,000 seater stadium, then each sport must have its own such edifice in which much smaller crowds can rattle around for the lesser matches.

Is this the way other countries run their games? Hell no. Stade de France (a kip mind you but it doesn't change the argument I'm making) is designed to host athletics as well as soccer and rugby. They roll in extra seating when they don't need the running track.

Munich's Olympic stadium is home to Bayern Munich.

Most of the new stadia built in Portugal for the Euro 2004 were called Stadio Municipal, implying that they were built with public money for the public good. If people want to have a welly flinging contest in there, they can do.

It's only in Ireland that one set of games is considered so sacrosanct that people who play other games are officially shunned, branded as traitors and excluded from the national sports' premises so that the governing organisation can cut off its own nose to spite its face.

Personally, I don't really want to see soccer or rugby in Croke Park. It's on the Northside. There's nowhere to park that won't give a clamper a wet dream. There's no train station. The buses are a joke. The pubs are all a fair way away and, well, somewhat unsavoury. Lansdowne Road is a much NICER venue.
But I don't think Dublin should have two 80,000 seater stadia. A nice 50,000 all seater such as is planned for Lansdowne will be perfect for most needs. But for the really big games, v New Zealand or England at rugby, or a vital Euro/World Cup qualifier against top opposition in soccer, or while the new stadium is being built, there should be NO reason why Croke Park could not be rented out on a purely commercial basis.

You say ' the FAI has never formally asked the GAA to play in Croke Park' Well, it would be wasting its time while the GAA has a rule which prohibits the playing of 'garrison games' in its premises on its statute books.

This is a stupidly bitter, sterile and useless debate that shouldn't even be happening. The longer it goes on, the more people become embittered by real or imaginary slights.

The ball is certainly in the GAA's court. Personally, I think the FAI and IRFU should give the GAA until the end of this year to remove that useless clause from its rule book and if they don't then FAI/IRFU should enter into binding agreements with Old TRafford and/or Millennium Stadium to play their home games there until such time as Lansdowne Road is built.

Just think of all that money, all that enthusiasm and all the bitterness that would flow across the Irish Sea for those years to join the hordes that 'follow' the Premiership's teams every Saturday because the game at home has been denuded by the lack of co-operation and internecine fighting that simply does not exist in other countries.

There's some idiots in the GAA who would call that a victory.

Big Ears

The Millennium Stadium , would very easy to get as they are always looking to rent it out for matches .(Parma V Barcelona I think was the most recent)

They understand that English football wont really on it once Wembley is re-built so they will want other sources of income .

Id just bec concerned with the number of people going across .
If less people go to Wales than can fit in Dalymount or Thomond Park if its re-developed before Landsdowne Road then obviosly it would be better to play the games at home in tiny stadiums :mad: .

smemon

Big Ears wrote:

of course they are , its our nationel sports which they want to preserve, just like the language , only they did a much better job .

and GAA is by no means a pub competition . :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :cool:

preserve it for what reason? pride? thats stupid. you cant preserve something forever, times change, people change, sport changes.

its such a poor sport nobody else in the world plays it so why are so proud of it?
about 5m people with 32 teams,its a pub game with one or two people with talent thrown in, even they are wasted beacause its not professional.

Big Ears

smemon wrote:

preserve it for what reason? pride? thats stupid. you cant preserve something forever, times change, people change, sport changes.

its such a poor sport nobody else in the world plays it so why are so proud of it?

about 5m people with 32 teams,its a pub game with one or two people with talent thrown in, even they are wasted beacause its not professional.

for some reason , you having said that I think ill get away with a little flameing , because you are a fecking idiot that knows nothing about soccer or GAA .

I think you're just trying to draw the Flames anyway , so congratulations .

jesus_thats_gre

Einst&#252 wrote: »

Maybe they refuse to have telephones and are therefore uncontactable seeing as Alexander Bell was British? Otherwise they'd jsut be hypocrites...

Excellent contribution... What do you believe is the reason that the GAA will allow other sports and concerts to be held in croke park but not soccer?

eirebhoy

Go away Smemon. shooo!

jesus_thats_gre

Ok bit of a simplified theory.. Eircom cannot refuse to allow a competitor to avail of their services. If the GAA offer the facility whereby their venue can be rented for sporting purposes, surely there has to be something in the law whereby they cannot refuse to rent it to the FAI on the basis that the FAI want to play soccer on the pitch? Especially considering the reason for it and the fact they allow other events to use it.

Imposter

There is so much to say about what smemon has posted but I'll just say that he is one of those bigots that I was refering ot earlier.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

What traditional reasons are these. Do they stem from the fact that soccer is seen as a British sport?

Yes they are. I didn't say I agree with them but they are one element in this discussion. As are the likes of smemon.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The Irish goverment have paid for a large percentage of the renovation work done to Croke Park so far.. This money is taken directly from the public coffers that is filled by tax money.. The goverment should withold the final part of the funding to complete the stand until the GAA agree to do business.

Wrong. The government only gave 40m iirc which is a relatively small percentage of what it cost to rebuild Croker.
They also promised more but thanks to the very sporty Ms. Harney they have since withdrawn this.

There is no room in this country for backward attitude that many members of the GAA have and it is time they realised that the many intelligent people in this country have stopped hating something purely because it is British.

As I have said many times in this debate on these boards that is also wrong. It is a minority of the GAA that have that opinion. A far greater number oppose opening Croke Park at the moment for other more logical reasons. Reasons that noone on this board has yet made any attempt to prove untrue or otherwise unfounded.

Hairy Homer wrote:

It's only in Ireland that one set of games is considered so sacrosanct that people who play other games are officially shunned, branded as traitors and excluded from the national sports' premises so that the governing organisation can cut off its own nose to spite its face.

That attitude is largely in the past. What is this "national sports' premises" you speak of? Surely not Croker! You see the GAA own that premises, not the nation.

The ball is certainly in the GAA's court. Personally, I think the FAI and IRFU should give the GAA until the end of this year to remove that useless clause from its rule book and if they don't then...

That first bit is opinion. My opinion is that if they aren't asked by the FAI or the IRFU why should the ball be in the GAA's court (or pitch even )? And the earliest the rule can be changed is next congress, which will be next year. If it is changed it's likely that a commitee will be in charge of deciding who can of can't use the stadium. Who's to say they won't block soccer and rugby?

jesus_thats_gre

Imposter wrote:

Wrong. The government only gave 40m iirc which is a relatively small percentage of what it cost to rebuild Croker.
They also promised more but thanks to the very sporty Ms. Harney they have since withdrawn this.

What has been the total cost of the redevelopment?



http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0565/D.0565.200304160011.html

Mr. O'Donoghue: The Government has provided financial support totalling €69.84 million up to the end of last year to the Gaelic Athletic Association towards the redevelopment of Croke Park.

The GAA, at the end of November 2002, submitted an application for an additional €39.5 million in funding for Croke Park.

Mr. O'Donoghue: In respect of Croke Park, €69.8 million has been allocated in funding to the GAA to date, of which €67.9 million has been paid.





http://www.gaa.ie/page/croke_park.html

The total cost for the three-sided development, which will result in a capacity of 79,500, has been estimated at £110 million,



So the goverment has paid for over half.. Maybe you should remove the Wrong from your previous post..

Imposter

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The total cost for the three-sided development, which will result in a capacity of 79,500, has been estimated at £110 million,



So the goverment has paid for over half.. Maybe you should remove the Wrong from your previous post..

I'll admit I thought the redevelopment costs were a lot higher than this.

However, this 110 (pounds) is only an estimate and based on 3 sides (although admittedly the development of the Hill should be significantly cheaper to the other stands) but calculated before anything other than the Cusack was built.

I'd like to know what the final cost is(or will be) and i'd be pretty sure it's a multiple of the 140m ish €.