Martial Arts: A Way of Life?

columok

Trying to get off the topic of fighting/self defence.


What makes martial arts unique? (versus sport or other hobbies)


Does training 2 nights a week make something a way of life? Do you have to be a professional for it to be a way of life?

Any thoughts?

dudara

I think that in all reputable martial arts, not only are you being taught a skill, but also how to handle that skill. A philosophy if you will. I practise TKD and every class starts with an oath

As a student of TKD I shall..
observe the tenets of TKD
Respect the instructor and seniors
never misuse TKD
be a champion of freedom and justice
build a more peaceful world.

Lofty ideals, but every time i recite the oath I think about them. It's weird that in learning a marital art, I've learned a lot of self-control as well.

columok

dudara,

Do you integrate that thinking into just your training or into your every action? This being the distinction between philosophy that impacts training and philosophy that is inherent in everything you do.

Also, what are the tenets of TKD?

edit: fixed typo

briano

I agree with dudara. I think its not about how many nights a week you do martial arts training, but more about what you bring out of that training into day to day life. I know it sounds really naff but I do think about the tenets, especially when I am doing something fiddly or really frustrating, even when that activity has nothing to do with martial arts at all.

briano

Tenets:

Indomitable Spirt
Perseverance
Courtesy
Integrity
Self-control

dudara

The tenets are courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self-control and indominitable spirit. They sound like soundbites, or flash words, but occasionally you do find yourself thinking about them. One of my instructors favourite tricks is to make you explain them in your own words.

It's very easy to remember the tenets in the dojang, but it's harder out in the real world. However, I'm definitely a calmer person now than before and I've gained self-confidence but not ego. When you find yourself achieving a high turning kick in training, that confidence and assurance translates in everyday occurances.

I would have always been a very polite person, this being something that my parents taught me, so I don't know how much of that comes from TKD.

columok

Whats the difference between Indomitable Spirit and Perseverance? Surely theyre the same, or very similar, things?

I know it sounds really naff but I do think about the tenets, especially when I am doing something fiddly or really frustrating, even when that activity has nothing to do with martial arts at all.

As in your concentration is wondering so you strengthen your will and determination with an in-brain self pep-talk? Think I get what you mean!

dudara

while they are similar, I think there is a big difference between indominitable spirit and perseverance.

to me, spirit means not getting beat down by the world, and finding the courage within yourself to continue. Perseverance mean continuing until you achieve.

TwoKingMick

I think the most positive effect tkd had on my life is that i don't turn my back to someone immediatly after saying goodbye. All the other stuff is just buzz words made up in the fifties to make it sound legit and respectable.

columok

I think the most positive effect tkd had on my life is that i don't turn my back to someone immediatly after saying goodbye.

I actually noticed that about you. I was gonna say something but...


OK. What makes practicing martial arts different from say rock climbing which requires

1) Indomitable Spirit: Fighting your weaknesses

2) Perseverence : Never Giving Up. Keeping on going!

3) Self Control: Not freaking out. Facing fears

Couldnt find an analogy for courtesy and integrity but I assume most rock climbers are known for their character and politeness . They also have to focus, be courageous among other characteristics!

What makes TKD or MMA or Karate or Kung Fu unique?

Any further thoughts?

pearsquasher

Thats a really interesting question actually. I would say nothing makes martial artists any more unique than anyone else who is enthusiastic about what they are doing. I have training in Budo Taijutsu for several years and have seen as many assholes, unreliable people, flakes etc than in any dicipline form rock climbing to ballet. Thats just human demographics for you.

The thing is, a lot of modern MA usually has a selling point of self-development, making you a better person etc, whereas rock climbing and ballet don't. But don't forget, those selling points are a realtively new, invention. The whole concept of doing a MA to improve yourself as a human being, outside of that MA is pretty new.

MA were born out of medieval times when quite simply, people needed to learn how to kill each other efficiently. Back in the day, in China, Japan and Europe, when civil wars erupted, invasions ebbed and flowed... nobody had the luxury of practicing MA to make their outlook on life better... they did it to survive! Are the Iraqi rebels currently engaged with the Us soldiers in Najaf teaching their guys to shoot mortors doing it to improve their mind? I think not!

Over the centuries, as the world becomes industrialised, stable (relatively) and we are able to feed ourselves and not fight over land/resources, the idea that MA could leave the practicioner with a new sense of self started to emerge.

I do Budo Taijustu as i am intellectually interested in efficient body movement (art) expressed through real combat situations(martial). The side effects of self improvement are there alright, but i think i would get the same had i decided to study fine art, for example. It's all about educating yourself. The greatest paradox of a Martial artist is that they should never need to fight. If i was an accomplished fine artist or rock climber, i doubt i'd be in aggresive situations either! It should bot take you to be a martial artist to see that being in fights is a poor lifestyle choice. If you are educated and realise that you have nothing to prove, its pretty obvious fighting is easily avoided.

columok

Excellent post. This is the kind of direction that I was hoping the thread would go in.

The thing is, a lot of modern MA usually has a selling point of self-development, making you a better person etc, whereas rock climbing and ballet don't. But don't forget, those selling points are a realtively new, invention.

Good point. Rock-climbing and ballet dont need to use this USP (unique selling point). They just do it. Undoubtedly devoting yourself to something can have overwhelmingly positive effects on a person (and sometimes it can have very negative effects).

Maybe these selling points are a very western way of trying to make martial arts some kind of lifestyle accessory. I dont think that the spirituality of eastern martial arts fits in the context of western culture. I think its lost in translation, as such, and I feel that we over-prioritise and emphasise certain aspects that probably dont mean much to the original culture.

I do Budo Taijustu as i am intellectually interested in efficient body movement (art) expressed through real combat situations(martial). The side effects of self improvement are there alright, but i think i would get the same had i decided to study fine art, for example. It's all about educating yourself. The greatest paradox of a Martial artist is that they should never need to fight. If i was an accomplished fine artist or rock climber, i doubt i'd be in aggresive situations either! It should bot take you to be a martial artist to see that being in fights is a poor lifestyle choice. If you are educated and realise that you have nothing to prove, its pretty obvious fighting is easily avoided.

A very enlightened and unfortunately quite a rare outlook. Too many people whether they admit to it or not are concerned with chasing tough guy image. They want everyone to see them as some kung-fu master or invincible samurai, ultimately an unfulfilling thing to chase.

A major reason I do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is for the joy of going into autopilot. When you stop thinking about doing something and just go. I guess its when the right side of the brain takes over (same thing happens when I draw!) and you are in the zone as they say. Maybe thats what enlightenment is all about. Maybe not.

Colm_OReilly

It should bot take you to be a martial artist to see that being in fights is a poor lifestyle choice. If you are educated and realise that you have nothing to prove, its pretty obvious fighting is easily avoided.

Perfect

TwoKingMick

Not quite perfect, theres a b there instead of an a, and the grammer is a bit ropey

elivsvonchiaing

Reading this: I'm kinda depressed no-one acknowledges: Bruce Lee as a contributor. I think he was. - a major one.

How many schools worldwide were there of martial arts - in 1971 - in 1981? Do you really believe David Carradine pulled this off alone????

Flames - abuse - NO - constructive arguement: OK lets do it!

GuanYin

Don't flameme for this, but sometimes I am sorry that martials arts were ever taken to the western world. So many of the premises behind the philosophy of martial arts just got lost in translation and you have flashy oaths like those above.

My family is Korean and my fathers family were one of the major schools of Tae Kwon Do. While there was always a rathern zen-like philosophy there was nothing as ridiculously cheesey as "be a champion of freedom and justice" or "build a more peaceful world". I suppose mainly because its so commonly taught in Korea (in school for instance) but also because it simply wouldn't be stood for, that the idea of it being misused is nearly unthinkable. These types of oath came to fashion in the west because, frankly, thats not the case here.

As far as philosophy and way of life goes, martial arts are more about unlocking aspects of a person and focusing them to perform, not just the skills of a martial art itself, but confidence, discipline and other important character traits important in life.

Sometimes I think people here romanticise things far too much.

columok

Reading this: I'm kinda depressed no-one acknowledges: Bruce Lee as a contributor. I think he was. - a major one.

I dont think that Bruce Lee was acknowledged because its not really pertinent to this discussion. He was undoubtedly a contributor but I think thats a different discussion.

Flames - abuse - NO - constructive arguement: OK lets do it!

No flames around here!

Don't flameme for this, but sometimes I am sorry that martials arts were ever taken to the western world. So many of the premises behind the philosophy of martial arts just got lost in translation and you have flashy oaths like those above.

Good point. I think Judo is probably the only eastern art that manages to bypass a lot of this stuff.

Sometimes I think people here romanticise things far too much.

True. Colm hit upon this in the ninjitsu thread.

As far as philosophy and way of life goes, martial arts are more about unlocking aspects of a person and focusing them to perform, not just the skills of a martial art itself, but confidence, discipline and other important character traits important in life.

I would go a step further and say that activities taken seriously require all of the above. Martial arts are not unique in this respect. Whether that activity be art, writing, music, sport or martial arts it all takes the same kind of focus and dedication.

dudara

I would say that the reason a lot of those oaths are tenets are built-in in TKD is to remind people of the skills that they are learning. I treat TKD purely as an exercise regime (that does wonders for flexibility) and also as a way of pushing myself to do things that I thought my body never could.

however, there are people who take up martial arts for the sole intention of learning how to fight and hurt. By introducing the oaths etc, even if they are a bit "flashy", we are reminding ourselves that we are learning more than how to hurt people.

GuanYin

Do you not maybe think that glamourising and hollywood-ising the martial art with oaths and tenants above not only detracts from the actual art itself, but is also a dangerous example to the students.

"be a champion of freedom and justice"
and
"build a more peaceful world"

are very close to "hero" mentality. One could argue that they infer some sort of obligation to act as a superhero, or even worse vigilante.

Its a very Hollywood-ese notion and younger more impressionable students could easily take this the wrong way. Any martial arts instructor that suggests you enter into avoidable conflict, for any reason, is outside the scope of his responsability.
This sort of "tenant" would stand againts everything that most schools stand for.

dudara

To be honest Syke, I would say that only fools would think they were superheroes after studying martial arts. Fools who will get themselves hurt or worse when they try to act upon their stupidity.

Yes, the oath includes some very "glamorous" ideas, and in fairness, most of the time it's just something you spout at the start of the class. However, if we all took the time to do something each day that reflects the oath, such as opening the door for an old person or helping a woman with her childs buggy, then that's all fufilling the oath.

We don't need to go fight the supervillain in his evil lair.

GuanYin

Try telling that to a 12 year old who gets into a needless fight because he thinks he is obliged to act the hero.

I think whoever wrote that oath is grossly irresponsible.

dudara

Good instructors ensure that is not the case. It really all does come down to the instructor at the end. If he/she is a psycho-headcase then he will do irrepairable damage to his students.

columok

Developing hero complexes is certainly quite worrying. It feeds the image of the student, which could lead to passive aggresive tendencies. Encouraging unnecessary fights just to prove this image. Quite unhealthy in my opinion.

dudara

AFAIK it was General Choi Hong Hi who wrote the oath.

GuanYin

dudara wrote:

AFAIK it was General Choi Hong Hi who wrote the oath.

I don't think so. Perhaps he did, he was the main proponent of westernising taekwondo after all, even still, the site doesn't attribute it to him at all (as it does many other things).

dudara

LOL, that's true, they attribute just about everything, short of the creation of the world to the man.

Moss

Don't mean to be harsh but that TKD oath sounds ike something president Bush would say. I don't know how you reconcile the violence of TKD and peace. I think the people who say they simply get a thrill out of TKD are more honest.

I did TKD for a few years when I was younger but gave it up. I now want to do aikido. I don't want to spend years training in martial arts so I can smash someones face in. I'd prefer to train so I won't have to.

Let me know what you think. :eek:

GuanYin

Moss wrote:

Don't mean to be harsh but that TKD oath sounds ike something president Bush would say. I don't know how you reconcile the violence of TKD and peace. I think the people who say they simply get a thrill out of TKD are more honest.

I did TKD for a few years when I was younger but gave it up. I now want to do aikido. I don't want to spend years training in martial arts so I can smash someones face in. I'd prefer to train so I won't have to.

Let me know what you think. :eek:

Hrmmm a controversial first poster... I never thought I'd see the day

I think that you're right about the Oath (although I'm not sure Bush could manage it, its a bit complicated for him) but I've never felt the urge to smash anyones face in, in fact, I tend to be much more cautious about being violent, even in play, because I am concious I could inadvertantly hurt someone. I had a broken arm once and my mother went to playfully punch me (I was slagging her), instinctively I blocked with my cast and I fractured her hand.

The only aspect of Taw Kwon Do that I am conciously happy about are my reflexes which, I must admit, are A1.

PhoenixRising

Moss wrote:

I don't know how you reconcile the violence of TKD and peace.

Moss wrote:

I don't want to spend years training in martial arts so I can smash someones face in. I'd prefer to train so I won't have to.

I think you just answered your own question there.

TwoKingMick

dudara wrote:

Yes, the oath includes some very "glamorous" ideas, and in fairness, most of the time it's just something you spout at the start of the class. However, if we all took the time to do something each day that reflects the oath, such as opening the door for an old person or helping a woman with her childs buggy, then that's all fufilling the oath.

You don't need to say a silly americanised oath two times a week to be nice to people.

Walsingham

Most people join a martial arts club with the idea of ending up like Bruce Lee.
Someone who is supercool and take anyone, who can look after themselves no matter what. This is tragic misconception of martial arts that Bruce Lee and those "Martial Artists" like Steven Segal, Chuck Norris and the rest have ruthlessly propagated. Bruce Lee used most of films to promote himself and his martial arts to the detriment of the martial arts about at the time. He was one of the first MMA and liked to project the image that his art was superior to all others. However if you read "The Tao of Bruce Lee" you will see that this is simply not true. Bruce Lee was not as good at martial arts as he was at self promotion.

Every martial art has its flaws, and today if you want to be a true engine of destruction you should join an artillery unit of an army. Why fight eyeball to eyeball when you can fire a 50 kg shell 50 km and land it within 5m of your enemy with the help of satelite/drone imagery and laser guidance? However the process of loading and firing an artillery piece and the other modern military endeavours that most engage in are to say the least brutal and mechanistic not to mention soul - less practices. Even today most modern armies use methods such a foot drill and physical training to instill attributes in their personnel that are required to make them effective and disciplined in high pressure environments.

As you have to admit martial technology has moved beyond solo martial arts(it has done since perhistoric times when armies were first raised) , so the aim of taking up a martial to be an unstopable force of nature is foolish to say the least. The thing is most martial arts have their own goals and objectives (or more accurately the instructors do) and there is frequently a mismatch between the objectives of the student and the instructor. The shameless self promotion of certain styles through the past 20 years (In Ireland, past 50 years in some countries) has made matters worse. Students get disillusioned and frustrated or worse still beaten and injured along with aforementioned disillusionment and frustration.

There is yet to be an "ultimate" martial art. Most martial artists today have no solution to dealing with a positively primitive weapon like a bow. A good field archer at 25 m will get one aimed shot off and nock another arrow before the distance is closed. (Allowing 2.5 seconds to run 25 m which is fast!)

So why study martial arts and not run out and get a gun or some other kind of weapon? Apart from legal implications I feel there is more to martial arts than a series of techniques than making short work of an opponent. Depending on you art you will be exposed to all kinds of strategy in a very real sense. You develop an ability to think on your feet and gain confindence as you see through the choice of strategy or approach that you have made to a successful conclusion. Martial arts encourage speed of thought and action to the point where you no longer have to consciously have to think.

They can improve fitness, speed balance and co - ordination. They can give fantastic awareness of what is going on around you and your body in space. Your interaction with training partners in a club/dojo can help you to learn new ways of dealing with others and equip you with pscyhological tools for dealing with all manner of people. You can be having a laugh and joke with someone and later when training they can actively try to take your head off with a bokken.

Dealing with this kind of interaction where another takes on the role of aggressor can help you deal with this situation should it arise and playing the aggressor can help you to undersatnd the ritual and psychology of attack. As you progress up the hierarchy of your organisation you may end up taking responsibility for the well being and training of others, the maintenance of your club or its equipment. Training in a one - one manner commonly found in all martial arts also helps to develop your communications skills and may ultimately develop into the ability to teach.

The most important thing people can learn in martial arts has to be emotional control over themselves. The timid become more outgoing, the aggresive and angry more even tempered and those that are afraid a kind of inner strenght and confidence they never new they had. This however does not happen for everyone and much depends on how a club is run and how the person percieves themselves.

These skills and many others spill over into your life. I do not think that you need to be a professional instructor to achieve this goal and some of the most competent martial artists have day jobs. Some maybe in associated areas, but ultimately it depends on the instructor themselves and how they lead there lives. If you try to incorporate the mental skills and strategies that you learn from your art into your daily life then you are continually practicing and practicing in the most important environment of all, the world outside of the club. 99 % of people and situations you meet are unlikely to escalate to situation where you will need your phsyical skills. You are more likely to have to negotiate a day off or a pay rise at work than have to submit someone or fight them. Being a full time martial artist who earns a living from his or her art can sometimes be counter productive, I imagine as most of the people you would encounter would be trying to learn martial arts not to do other things.

The reason most people (including myself) is to explore themselves their abilities and improve in a physical, psychological and (maybe) spiritual sense.
In short to be better people.