What party would you give your No 1 if there was an election tomorrow?

daveirl

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Nuttzz

i wasnt trying to vindicate the governments point, I was pointing out that this country was a lot worse off prior to Charlie & Bertie taking over, I have watched family and friends leave the country to get a job after they finished education, thankfully most young people now dont face this.

The bloodstock tax exemptions have been in place since the 60's you cant blame CMcC for bringing that in.

AngelofFire

Explain to me why they don't have the right to have college fees? Where is third level education set in stone as a basic human right?

Im not saying it is set in stone as a basic human right but in this country it should be a right for everybody, it helps people from all economic backgrounds to fulfill their human potential achieving better skills thus increasing participation in the economy. Look how backward the country was when people had to pay second level fees.Increased participation in education fuels economic growth as they are more people with qualification

I already banged on about the importance of free education on another
thread.

And Nuttz 3rd level fees were abolished by Labour not Fianna Fail

Nuttzz

and labour were in power on their own at the time.........? It required full cabinet approval for a measure like this, who were bulk of the cabinet at the time?

AngelofFire

I know that they were in coalition, however it was the proposal of the Labour minister for education at the time

Cork

AngelofFire wrote:

I know that they were in coalition, however it was the proposal of the Labour minister for education at the time

From a party that has opposed giving medical cards to the over 70s.

FF and the PDs have delivered on putting people back to work and cutting taxes.

Last year an MRBI poll found that when faced with the choice of cutting spending, increasing borrowing or raising taxes the option to raise taxes was by far the least favoured option of those surveyed.

A recent analysis of Sinn Féin’s policy proposals showed that its policies would increase Government spending by €5 billion per year. Come the next election, will have a clear choice.

The PDs and FF or FG, Lab supported by who ever.

Seaneh

Seriously, who said the PD's?

But anyway, I'd vote SF, because in my area thier local reps. are very, very honest young men who actually do what they say they will.

sceptre

Cork wrote:

Come the next election, will have a clear choice.

The PDs and FF or FG, Lab supported by who ever.

Well, if I have to choose...

(can I add a "Well, duh!" without getting banned?)

Typedef

To be honest, I think Bertie has slipped up majorly by removing Charile McCreevy from parliment and promoting Mary Hannafin to the front benches if Fianna Fail is serious about taking on the rise of Sinn Fein.

I can tell you that from where I sit, removing a high profile identafiable nationalist like McCreevy and promoting a sycophant like Hannafin, won't stop the floating voters from backing Sinn Fein. Quite the opposite I'd say.

I'm afraid that having persued right wing policies up until the last local election, that Fianna Fail has 'completely' got it wrong and tached to the 'right', in the wake.

Which part didn't make sense to them voters start voting towards the left and Fianna Fail moves 'further' towards the right?

Hmm. It's starting to look like Enda Kenny 'really does' have a chance at being the next Taoiseach. Who'd have thought?

Cork

Typedef wrote:

I'm afraid that having persued right wing policies up until the last local election, that Fianna Fail has 'completely' got it wrong and tached to the 'right', in the wake.
QUOTE]

I feel that tax revenue and employment is on the rise. This will pay dividends for FF.

As for SF and Adams - hopefully the IRA will be consigned to history and Adams will give a answer a few questions come the next general election campaign.

Fergus Finlay penned an interesting article in March last about:

Gerry Adams should have won an Oscar for his lifetime of denials

Irish Examiner

sliabh

Seaneh wrote:

But anyway, I'd vote SF, because in my area thier local reps. are very, very honest young men who actually do what they say they will.

Are they honest about the fact that their party has links to organised crime in Ireland?

AngelofFire

FF and the PDs have delivered on putting people back to work and cutting taxes.

Fianna Fail/PDs were in the right place at the right time when the exchequer were overflowing with cash,therefore tax exemptions for the working class who were for so long burdened heavily with taxation was the least people expected, but dont get me wrong they do deserve credit for that, and you are right to point that out cork.

However in 2002 instead of cutting back on the massive concessions given to the Upper class they target the people on low income by raising taxes by stealth.They trebled reg fees the year i was going into college and made a general cut in spending on 3rd level education, they even had the arrogance to propose the reintroduction of full fees. Spending on Education is a much better investment in the long run than granting racecourse owners more tax concessions, it gaurantees economic success as it makes it easier for more people to participate fully in society thus strenghtening the economy.

This governments record of lowering taxes does not in anyway justify the broken pre 2002 promises or the blatant lies told to peoples faces on their own doorsteps.

NinjaBart

sliabh wrote:

Are they honest about the fact that their party has links to organised crime in Ireland?

can you give us a good reference for that?

ionapaul

NinjaBart wrote:

can you give us a good reference for that?

What sort of reference are you looking for here? Anything can be referenced on the interweb. A court ruling? A government report? A police intelligence report? Sure can't all of those things be fabricated by Sinn Fein's enemies, and thus be discounted as proof.

Do you believe Sinn Fein has no links to organised crime in Ireland? If so, will any internet-provided references really change your mind...?

NinjaBart

ionapaul wrote:

What sort of reference are you looking for here?

any sort of good reference. a book by a reputable journalist would be ideal, but beggars cant be choosers.

Anything can be referenced on the interweb.

i didnt say anything about web references. what are good references on the web regarding the north anyway? cain and the bbc seem decent enough.

A court ruling? A government report? A police intelligence report?

sure.

Sure can't all of those things be fabricated by Sinn Fein's enemies, and thus be discounted as proof.

of course but people have to base their opinions on something and take such factors into account.

Do you believe Sinn Fein has no links to organised crime in Ireland?

what i believe is irrelevant to the question i asked but i would prefer information relating to south of the border if available. why do people get so defensive when asked for references? there must be no end of them if so many people believe it to be the case.

If so, will any internet-provided references really change your mind...?

you must have imagined hte word internet in my post.

daveirl

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Lennoxschips

I agree with Gerry Adams getting a best actor Oscar for his lifetime of denials. And lets not forget Bertie Ahern as best actor in a supporting role.

AngelofFire

So basically all that 'free fees' did was give the Middle Class a tax break, since the Middle class were sending their kids to third level anyway. So why would a party target their core voter group with a concept like fees?

I wouldnt have been able to go to college if i had to pay 3000 per year.The amount of working class people in ITs has doubled since 1994, it will take time to work its way up to the Universities.It took years while for Lemass` free second level education act to take effect but thats not to say it was meaningless, anyway i already stressed the importance of free education on the socialism thread, i dont want to keep repeating myself.

sliabh

NinjaBart wrote:

can you give us a good reference for that?

If you don't think there is any link between Sinn Fein and the IRA (which the last time I checked was a criminal organisation, and continues to be involved in things like smuggling, protection rackets etc) then you are incredibly naive or incredibly badly informed.

NinjaBart

sliabh wrote:

If you don't think there is any link between Sinn Fein and the IRA

im not asking about that.

sliabh wrote:

(which the last time I checked was a criminal organisation, and continues to be involved in things like smuggling, protection rackets etc)

that is not a reference. "last time you checcked" must mean that you have something to show me about the extent of organised crime activities in the ira.

sliabh wrote:

then you are incredibly naive or incredibly badly informed.

just the facts please.

sliabh

NinjaBart wrote:

im not asking about that. just the facts please.

I am no more going to get into proving that the IRA (a criminal organisation in Ireland, which has been linked to everything from bank robbery, to kidnapping to extorting protection) is linked to Sinn Fein than I am going to prove that the Nazi's were responsble for the holocaust or that evolution is right and creationism is a load of rubbish.

These are the facts. Just open any history book on either Sinn Fein or the IRA and you can see. The question really is whether:

a) You know this but don't care
b) You don't know this because you have never done any reasearch on who/what Sinn Fein are

So what is it NinjaBart, a or b?

Mighty_Mouse

Firstly can we not have a Sinn Fein and paramilitary violence debate again

second that.

am no more going to get into proving that the IRA (a criminal organisation in Ireland, which has been linked to everything from bank robbery, to kidnapping to extorting protection) is linked to Sinn Fein than I am going to prove that the Nazi's were responsble for the holocaust or that evolution is right and creationism is a load of rubbish.

But the IRA are linked to Sinn Fein and it's easy enough to proove! :eek:
note: I love it the way a person can casually drop a Nazi/holocaust comment in relation to republicans so lightly :rolleyes:

The question really is whether:
a) You know this but don't care
b) ...............you have never done any reasearch on who/what Sinn Fein are

I would say (b) right back at ya Sliabh! Trying reading under the headings of "War in Northern Ireland", "Civil Rights", "30 years of Troubles", "Attrocities on both sides" etc etc. Its what you might call a 'historical' context.

sliabh

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

note: I love it the way a person can casually drop a Nazi/holocaust comment in relation to republicans so lightly :rolleyes:

I am not for a moment comparing the Nazi's to Sinn Fein. My point is about people avoiding the evidence and the agreed facts, which is why I also mentioned the creationists. I could have added the flat earth lobby as well.

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

I would say (b) right back at ya Sliabh! Trying reading under the headings of "War in Northern Ireland", "Civil Rights", "30 years of Troubles", "Attrocities on both sides" etc etc. Its what you might call a 'historical' context.

Which is not what is up for debate here. NinjaBart was questioning my assertion that Sinn Fein has links to an organised criminal group.

And it is that link that I feel is most relevent to whether or not you should vote for Sinn Fein (bringing the discussion back to where we started from)

daveirl

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NinjaBart

sliabh wrote:

I am no more going to get into proving that the IRA (a criminal organisation in Ireland, which has been linked to everything from bank robbery, to kidnapping to extorting protection) is linked to Sinn Fein than I am going to prove that the Nazi's were responsble for the holocaust or that evolution is right and creationism is a load of rubbish.

i said im not asking about this. reread my last post. ill make it clearfer for you. do you have a reference regarding the existence and/or extent of organised crime activities committeed by the ira?

sliabh wrote:

These are the facts. Just open any history book on either Sinn Fein or the IRA and you can see. The question really is whether:

ive read a few but havent seen it cover some of the accusations that ive read on these forums but asking for a reference brings no reference, just contempt.

sliabh wrote:

a) You know this but don't care
b) You don't know this because you have never done any reasearch on who/what Sinn Fein are

So what is it NinjaBart, a or b?

this sort of posturing is very common around these parts. how about you answer the actual question this time or at least do your posturing about the actual question im asking.

sliabh wrote:

Which is not what is up for debate here. NinjaBart was questioning my assertion that Sinn Fein has links to an organised criminal group.

i just asked for a reference, why is that such a challenge. anyway again i was not looking for a reference about the links between the organisation but detailed information about the organised crime activities that you mention.

AngelofFire

But aren't you agreeing with me that mostly it's the Middle Class who go to college so bringing back fees would be a cost that would target the middle class more than the working class, so wouldn't be beneficial to the PDs core vote. Fair enough it would make it more difficult for less well off people to attend college but as you said it hasn't worked it's way up yet, so less people in the working class would feel the pinch.

No Dave you are completely disregarding what i said on my previous post and are attempting to decontextualise the argument to score extra debating points. Up until 1968 only the middleclass could afford second level education, but bringing in free second level fees wasn`t denounced as only benefiting the middle class, free education benefits EVERYBODY inluding aspiring 3rd level students from low income backgrounds. I think everybody should be entitled to free education regardless of what their parents income is.

And as far as i know the PDs were against re introduction of 3rd level in 2002. It was that idiot dempsey who suggested it.

It will work its way up, its already taken affect in ITs.

sliabh

NinjaBart wrote:

i said im not asking about this. reread my last post. ill make it clearfer for you. do you have a reference regarding the existence and/or extent of organised crime activities committeed by the ira?

So bombing, shooting, and so on are not criminal?

If you just want to limit it to "traditional" organised crime then there is kidnapping, bank robbing, protection etc. to call on.

And these activities are still continuing. I know of one building site in Ballyfermot that is paying EUR50,000 per year for protection to these people.

NinjaBart

sliabh wrote:

So bombing, shooting, and so on are not criminal?

that depends upon your point of view but i didnt think that those were the activities you meant.

sliabh wrote:

If you just want to limit it to "traditional" organised crime then there is kidnapping, bank robbing, protection etc. to call on.

yes, thsi is the sort of thing that i would like a reference for. (reference doesnt mean "could you repeat what you just said").

sliabh wrote:

And these activities are still continuing. I know of one building site in Ballyfermot that is paying EUR50,000 per year for protection to these people.

where "these people" means the provisional ira? if you have a reference for that too it would be nice, but it is obviously not surprising if none exists (read that whichever way you like). why od you think that this doesnt affect the local vote? i was of the impression taht ballyfermot was one of the places where sinn fein support was strongest.

sliabh

NinjaBart wrote:

why od you think that this doesnt affect the local vote? i was of the impression taht ballyfermot was one of the places where sinn fein support was strongest.

Probably because they are not the ones paying the money, the builder is. And even in cases like with Ferris in North Kerry they can play on the Robin Hood image to attract votes from thos marginalised in society.

But ultimately while it will gain you some seats the majority of the population will not vote for that. So there is a ceiling to the level of support Sinn Fein can attract without changing their focus/image/message. Hence all the interest in Mary Lou McDonald as the new face of Sinn Fein.

NinjaBart

no reference for ninjabart i guess