Criminal Justice Bill 2004

Sparks

Rew wrote:

Fair play to Howlin

It might be an idea for us to send a few emails of thanks and support mentioning that particular meeting to Howlin!
His email address is brendan.howlin@oireachtas.ie and copying it to [url=mailto:head_office@labour.ie&body=Message for Brendan Howlin]head_office@labour.ie[/url] with "Message for Brendan Howlin" in the subject or body of the email would probably be a good idea too. Clicking on either of those two links ought to do it...

As for Ó Snodaigh I wonder has he ever seen a gun except on telly...

*strangled coughing noises*

Rew

Sparks wrote:

It might be an idea for us to send a few emails of thanks and support mentioning that particular meeting to Howlin!
His email address is brendan.howlin@oireachtas.ie and copying it to [url=mailto:head_office@labour.ie&body=Message for Brendan Howlin]head_office@labour.ie[/url] with "Message for Brendan Howlin" in the subject or body of the email would probably be a good idea too. Clicking on either of those two links ought to do it...


*strangled coughing noises*

Ill be mailing him shortly I think. as for the other bit I didnt realise but should have known...

Vegeta

Rew wrote:

Ill be mailing him shortly I think. as for the other bit I didnt realise but should have known...

I just mailed him there pointing out the 3 things I find most disturbing with the Bill

17HMR

Dropped him an email thanking him for his balanced and reasonable approach and outlined as simply as I could my main concern, this "authorised range" business.

Sparks

Heard from a friend of mine in Labour today:

I was talking to Brendan today, and he was very grateful for all the briefing material. He says he has now heard from another eight or nine target shooters, so he'll definitely be able to argue your corner from now on!

Just goes to show that direct representations from shooters can have a positive effect! Keep those emails and letters going!

Vegeta

is there another round of talks today yeah

Sparks

Yup, today at 1700.

cantona

Any word from todays debate.Anyone got a link that I can check?

cantona

Following is reply to my e-mail to Richard Bruton


With regards to certain section of the Act:

Section 2A, and parts of Section 4A and Section 4B are a matter of regulation and would not need to go into the primary legislation.

Section 3A (issue of guirdelines etc by Commissioner) - this aspect could be tightened and raised at Committee. Do you have suggetions on this?

With regards to powers of entry - there shouldn't really be a problem for Gardai to enter at any time, with a few conditions put in place.

jaycee

there shouldn't really be a problem for Gardai to enter at any time, with a few conditions put in place.

He seems to have missed the point there , if not several points .

The Range inspectors in question may not be Gardaí , and as it stands they could be anyone appointed as an inspector , and the more serious issue is that practically no conditions have been put in place .

Even the Gardaí don't have the powers of search and entry without warrant that these guys would as it is currently stated.

Further to that , since the rules of privacy have been bent that far out of shape , who's to say what they would seize and what would be the rules for preservation of a chain of evidence.

You can't stop or hinder them , or your in BIG trouble , and since they don't need to have any training ,God alone knows what they might decide was material which need to be taken away for "examination"
Reloading articles, Shooting Magazines , your computer , Firearms , ammo , shooting jacket , rubber boots ...

Anyone got copies of printable targets on their PC ..?
Hmmm.. perhaps you are planning to print them out for use on your unofficial "Range"

Aww, for God's sake ... :mad:
.. and Mr Bruton dosen't think there's much wrong with it...

Vegeta

email him back and tell him why he is not seeing the big picture, explain your point of view to him

Sparks

Vegeta wrote:

email him back and tell him why he is not seeing the big picture, explain your point of view to him

Exactly. It's not a problem that he doesn't know this; it's an opportunity to educate him on our point of view!

Sparks

cantona wrote:

Any word from todays debate.

None yet, but it usually takes a day or three for them to get the transcripts typed up and posted on the net (and that's pretty good going as anyone who's ever done dictation work will tell you).

Anyone got a link that I can check?

This page lists all the minutes for the committee meetings. May 3rd was the last one posted when I last checked.

Sparks

The minutes from the May 10 meeting have now been posted on the above webpage. There's nothing in it that applies to us, however, the dicussion was on the explosives acts - specifically on halloween fireworks - and on the sections to do with organised crime. The next meeting after that was May 11; no sign of those minutes yet.

jaycee

Sparks wrote:

There's nothing in it that applies to us, however.

There are one or two items of interest though..

One was a reference by the Minister on the timeframe for this bill.

Mr. McDowell: I agree with the Deputy in spirit on that suggestion but it must await the amending legislation. I do not propose to introduce a new provision to that effect in this Bill, which, I hope, will become law this summer.

The other was a response to a question on the new proposed fireworks / explosives import licences .. (Head's up all you "would be" black powder reloaders)

Mr. McDowell: I will answer Deputy Howlin’s question on how the current system works. The licensing is not satisfactory and statutory criteria are not laid down. For example, competence levels are not explicitly covered. The nine licensed persons to whom he referred operate under an unspecific licensing regime. It is unsatisfactory and the legislation we have in mind will require health and safety issues to be dealt with, perhaps by the Health and Safety Authority or its involvement in the licensing process. There must be standards; one cannot have a child come in off the street and ask for a licence.
Mr. Howlin: In the interim what criteria does the Minister use to issue a refusal or does he refuse anybody?
Mr. McDowell: I do not wish to be too detailed about the criteria. There are licensed importers and if people start to apply for licences, they might find that the file is lost for a while, if they do not come up to scratch.

Hmmmm ...

Sparks

Bugger. Missed those, thanks JC.

Rovi

Transcripts for Thursday 11 May are up, but it's all about drugs, sex offenders, and sentencing.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=JUS20060511.xml&Node=H2&Page=1

The committee sits again tomorrow, Tuesday 16 May.

17HMR

Rovi wrote:

Transcripts for Thursday 11 May are up, but it's all about drugs, sex offenders, and sentencing.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=JUS20060511.xml&Node=H2&Page=1

The committee sits again tomorrow, Tuesday 16 May.

Isn't it nice having your sporting interests considered right up there with drugs and sex offenders....

jaycee

Transcripts for the 16th May ..up now.
Mostly dealing with sentencing issues.

Nothing to do with our sport ,
unless we fall foul of the firearms sections ..:rolleyes:

sidneyreilly

Is there any provission being made for classic firearms (pre: 1950) as non restricted. UK have firearms of historical interest exemptions from the pistol ban?

Sparks

Classic firearms are already exempt from the Firearms Acts Sidney (see section 26 of the 1925 Act), but not from pre 1950 - more like pre-1845

civdef

1950 would encompass an awful lot, like a Kalashnikov....

sidneyreilly

civdef wrote:

1950 would encompass an awful lot, like a Kalashnikov....

Mind you, how do the UK manage that one
What I had in mind was of course, .455 Webly, Luger. SMLE etc. that sort of thing. Could they be got on authorization?

jaycee

Details up for the 30th May, 1st June and 7th June....

Nothing of interest to us , just ASBO and child law stuff.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/CommitteeMenu.aspx?Dail=29&Cid=JU


The CJB is back up for discussion this Wednesday ..14/ June

jaycee

Didn't come up today...:(

Sparks

New document up here listing the CJB as thus far amended by the committee.

The terms "firing range" and "target shooting" are still not legally defined (and it's still a crime to do target shooting on an unauthorised firing range), though to be fair, we were told that a new section of definitions would be brought forward at the Report stage, which we haven't reached yet. The training certificate age remains at 14, and supervision must be by someone over the age of 18. Section 3A remains intact:

3A.—(1) The Commissioner may, with the consent of the Minister, from time to time issue guidelines in relation to the practical application and operation of any provision of the Firearms Acts 1925 to 2006.
(2) In particular, the Commissioner may issue such guidelines in relation to applications for firearm certificates and authorisations under this Act and to the conditions which may be attached to those certificates and authorisations.”.

Note the 2006 reference, which seems to imply that the Minister wants this bill passed before the end of the year.

Section 4 remains as follows:

4.—(1) An issuing person shall not grant a firearm certificate unless he or she is satisfied that the applicant complies with the conditions referred to in subsection (2) and will continue to comply with them during the currency of the certificate.

(2) The conditions subject to which a firearm certificate may be granted are that, in the opinion of the issuing person, the applicant—

(a) has a good reason for requiring the firearm in respect of which the certificate is applied for,
(b) can be permitted to possess, use and carry the firearm and ammunition without danger to the public safety or security or the peace,
(c) is not a person declared by this Act to be disentitled to hold a firearm certificate,
(d) has provided secure accommodation for the firearm and ammunition at the place where it is to be kept,
(e) where the firearm is to be used for target shooting, is a member of an authorised rifle or pistol club,
(f) has complied with subsection (3),
(g) complies with such other conditions (if any) specified in the firearm certificate, including any such conditions to be complied with before a specified date as the issuing person considers necessary in the interests of public safety or security, and
(h) in case the application is for a restricted firearm certificate—

(i) has a good and sufficient reason for requiring such a firearm, and
(ii) has demonstrated that the firearm is the only type of weapon that is appropriate for the purpose for which it is required.

(3) An applicant for a firearm certificate shall supply to the issuing person the information requested in the application form and such further information as the issuing person may require in the performance of the person’s functions under this Act, including, in particular—

(a) proof of identity,
(b) proof of competence in the use of the firearm concerned,
(c) written consent for any enquiries in relation to the applicant’s medical history that may be made from a health professional by or on behalf of the issuing person, and
(d) names and addresses of two referees who may be contacted to attest to the applicant’s character.

Also of interest in section four are parts five and six:

(5) The Minister, in consultation with the Commissioner, may by regulations provide for minimum standards to be complied with by holders of firearm certificates in relation to the provision of secure accommodation for their firearms.
(6) In this section “health professional” means a person who is a doctor, psychiatrist, dentist, optician, chemist or nurse and registered under any enactments governing the profession concerned or a clinical psychologist.”.

I'm still trying to figure out what kind of authority my dentist has on whether or not I should be allowed a firearms licence.

Still no hint of what the standards for secure storage or for firing ranges will be.

You still have the problem with shotgun licences for target shooting.

You still have the nearly unlimited power of search for firearms range inspectors.

Vegeta

I hate this country/government

17HMR

Any indication as to how and when those new items in section (3) will be implemented (proof of competence, dentist-certified fit mental state, referees etc)....

Will this be Garda discretionary or will it simply be something everyone will have to face at every application/renewal ?

Sparks

It's not clear from the legislation whether an application for a firearms licence will be done differently from applications for renewals 17, but then it wasn't beforehand either. And none of the stuff specified in section four will be discretionary; section four is the bare minimum. (Other parts mean that the superintendents will be able to attach other conditions to the licence, but section four's stuff will always have to be followed).

17HMR

So. Every renewal you could be faced with producing up to date proof of competence and referees letters......

(I say "up to date" as I had grief in the past with permissions letters being a couple of years old).

Seems like a lot of time wasting, for shooter and Garda....(after all, I'm sure even the most unstable and intemperate of people could drum up a couple of referees !).

No point in commenting on the "competence" thing until it is clearly defined !