Criminal Justice Bill 2004

Clare gunner

Vegeta wrote:

I hate this country/government

AMEN!!!More cobbled together legislation from the UK firearms acts.[The referee nonsense does it for me,with the Irish twist of adding the chemist or dentist??]Ah shure!if it is British it is good enough for us!Might as well run up the Union Jack over the Dail,as we seem to ape every law from Westminister.
Reckon I'll check about moving to Spain or Germany.They have enough laws on firearms ownership,but dont go moving the goalposts around every other year,nor do they allow mini Hitlers[aka Irish Garda Superintendants] to go and decide "policy" on their own personal likes/dislikes.:mad:

Vegeta

Clare gunner wrote:

AMEN!!!More cobbled together legislation from the UK firearms acts.[The referee nonsense does it for me,with the Irish twist of adding the chemist or dentist??]Ah shure!if it is British it is good enough for us!Might as well run up the Union Jack over the Dail,as we seem to ape every law from Westminister.
Reckon I'll check about moving to Spain or Germany.They have enough laws on firearms ownership,but dont go moving the goalposts around every other year,nor do they allow mini Hitlers[aka Irish Garda Superintendants] to go and decide "policy" on their own personal likes/dislikes.:mad:

That's the thing CG I don't care about how many laws there are but at least in other countries they have a better structure. In england one license with multiple guns put on it. That in itself would be a reward for having these tougher measures put on us

What are the benefits to these new laws for the shooting community. I think reloading is the only one and not everyone will take advantage of this.

I want a license that lasts 3 years, one license with a number of guns on the license. This only makes sense. It would have the initial workload for the gardai in the beginning getting it up and running but then would be much easier to maintain. You may argue that having a 3 year license is a bit dangerous, people might go nuts in the third year and shoot someone but with these new medical checks, i'm sure one of which is a mental check people should be even safer. If not then why have the medical checks at all.

Also what medical conditions will prevent gun ownership, cancer, the odd STI. Have they drafted a list yet.

Sparks

No sign of anything so useful Veg. There's more bad stuff though. This nice bit from Section Three:

(8) The holder of a firearm certificate may apply for renewal of the certificate within one month before it ceases to be in force.
(9) A decision on an application for a firearm certificate or its renewal shall be given within 3 months from the date on which the applicant submitted a completed application form.

Nothing in there about what happens if you apply one month before the deadline and it takes two months to renew the licence, other than that it'd be an offence to have it in your possession for that month. Which has a lot of overtones of 1972 in there.

But one of the more interesting things is in the first bit of section four:

An issuing person shall not grant a firearm certificate unless he or she is satisfied that the applicant complies with the conditions referred to in subsection (2) and will continue to comply with them during the currency of the certificate.

In other words, not only does geting a target shooting licence now make it mandatory to be in an authorised target shooting club for three years as well as a few other interesting quirks, you are now required, by law, to prove that you are not a person of intemperate habits or a person of unsound mind - and that you will not be so for the next three years. I'll readily admit to not being a mental health expert, but I'm rather sure that you actually can't do that.

Vegeta

ok if gun licenses are up the end of August and the can take 3 months to get back to you you could miss the opening day of the duck hunting season

Sparks

Or Bisley Week in August. Or several other large competitions.

17HMR

It all seems a bit like those stories of the acolyte showing up at the Shaolin monestry and been ignored for a year before being considered, therby proving his worthiness to enter....

It seems that all the bendy rules and redtape and obfuscation here is designed to drive away those with a casual interest in shooting, to ensure that only the really driven individuals make it through the gauntlet....

newby.204

Ok for those of us who had a hard time convincing people we were responsible enough to shoot on their land, then convince the people at home that it was fine with a gun in the house etc etc.....

I can see the farmers i got permission off, if i have to regularly bother them for "up to date" letters tellin me to "go jump in the river" and thats putting it politely

jaycee

Another case of selective deafness ...

Sad ..!

newby.204

jaycee wrote:

Another case of selective deafness ...

Sad ..!

Was just looking for clarification not a smart ass comment that isnt going to help me in anyway is it, just makes you feel big about yourself

Clare gunner

Vegeta wrote:

ok if gun licenses are up the end of August and the can take 3 months to get back to you you could miss the opening day of the duck hunting season

Kind of painted themselves into the corner there.Because of the then deficency of liscensing caused by the people who are supposedly in charge of issueing the vital paperwork you are made by their actions a defacto criminal.So there could be a very strong case for taking the Super and FAO to court if you were charged with illegal possesionof a firearm.Not that I think it would happen,as it would be the usual nod&wink on such situations.As usual our glorious leaders think this will all work via a computor like the PULSE.Ask any Garda how effective this system is.
Would anyone suggest finally to these oafs in charge of making a ballsup of this legislation,liscense the man not the guns for the same period of ten years like passports and drivers liscenses.I ,for one am blue in the face of suggesting this to all and sundry TDs suggesting this.:mad:

jaycee

Newby !

I wasn't referring to You , your comments ..or your post.
In effect ... it had nothing to do with you, but I will explain.

I was responding to the latest information regarding the thread title ..

"Criminal Justice Bill 2004"

and the attitudes of the Dept of Justice to all our submissions and suggestions, some of which seem to have been used as a stick to beat ourselves with.
Hence .. the "Selective Deafness " comment .

Therefore I was entirely "On-topic".

I try to refrain from making "smart -ass" comments on anyone's posts but in this case in the spirit of friendship I will remind you of one of the cardinal rules of shooting.
"Be sure of your target and what's beyond it.. " :rolleyes:

newby.204

Ah sorry i get a bit jumpy when i "think" im bein attacked


Do please accept my apology jaycee!!!!!!!!!

Sorry

jaycee

No Prob.. !

Hauk

Please don't kill me for asking, but does anyone have any idea as to when the CJB will be passed into law. I'm not asking for specific dates, just a general idea.

Thanks,

Hauk

FLAG

On or before 7th July 2006

civdef

Is that when the act will be passed or when the various provisions will come into force?

Hauk

Thanks for replying guys, yeah I was just wondering when the various amendments will officially replace the old laws. So yep, I was just checking when the new laws and amendments become the new 'rules', and the Garda Siochana and the Superintendants granting licence's determine their judgement based on the new laws.

Thanks a bunch

Hauk

Sparks

The transcripts of the latest committee meeting went up at 0530 this morning and the important bit is that the Committee stage is now complete. The bill has been passed back to the Dail. The earlier link I posted is the current CJB as the Dail will discuss it in the Report stage. No date on that as yet. Once through there, it still has to go through the Seanad and then be signed into law.

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

The transcripts of the latest committee meeting went up at 0530 this morning and the important bit is that the Committee stage is now complete. The bill has been passed back to the Dail. The earlier link I posted is the current CJB as the Dail will discuss it in the Report stage. No date on that as yet. Once through there, it still has to go through the Seanad and then be signed into law.

Surely they have lawyers or baristers who look over this and go wait a minute there is a glaringly obvious loop hole there or point out the fact they have given no definition of a range.

Ok I am not saying anyone on here is dumb but we can see the problems with this bill why cant they. Is there any hope for us or are we doomed/screwed

Sparks

Surely they have lawyers or baristers who look over this and go wait a minute there is a glaringly obvious loop hole there or point out the fact they have given no definition of a range.
Ok I am not saying anyone on here is dumb but we can see the problems with this bill why cant they. Is there any hope for us or are we doomed/screwed

Right now Veg, a suction cup dart gun is technically a firearm and needs a licence. So no, I don't think they'll catch onto things like that. We need to be writing emails to them to point out that there are problems. Until we wrote to Howlin, the questions regarding clay pigeon shooting as target shooting, or what happens if a licence is not processed in 3 months, or the whole unlimited search powers of the range inspectors, or the situation with informal ranges for sighting in hunting rifles, or the catch-22 for those starting to train for target shooting not being allowed shoot on shooting ranges but not being allowed shoot anywhere else - none of these were asked. And probably would never have been asked until afterwards when it would have done no good whatsoever. So we need to be getting our emails going. Now.

Hauk

Hmm, I need something cleared up. I was told that the CJB re-classifies any weapon that fires under 1 joule of energy as a toy. So I was just wondering does this still stand?

Thanks

Hauk

Sparks

Yes hauk, it still stands. But only for airguns.

Hauk

Okay thanks. This is good news for airsoft. Anyway, thanks again for answering my questions and I'll let you guys get back to discussing the important parts of the bill.

Thanks again.

FLAG

civdef wrote:

Is that when the act will be passed or when the various provisions will come into force?

This is when it is expected to be passed in to legislation, there is considerable sections of the legislation that will only become effective when the enabling legislation is passed by statute, for example range inspections can only be carried out when a range inspector has been appointed. It is a very complicated piece of legislation and it is expected that it will take 12 months or so to implement.

Sparks

It is a very complicated piece of legislation and it is expected that it will take 12 months or so to implement.

But the Minister has said he wants it through the Dail and Seanad by July 6 and that'll have it signed into law by the President by September. So it won't affect this year's licences, but next year's, assuming noone challanges it on constitutionality grounds. Also, while the overall CJB is complicated, Part Five (the bit that rewrites the firearms acts) is relatively straightforward (relative, that is, to the rest of the CJB which is truly convoluted). So we should see it come into force rather faster than we'd expect, assuming again that no constitutionality challanges are made.

So everyone better get friendly with their dentist real fast... :rolleyes:

17HMR

If its being pushed through for July 6th then I imagine no further amendments (or amendments to amendments) are likely to be made.

This would suggest that what we now have is what we're going to have to live with, short of legal challenges through the courts in the future......

Do FLAG have a legal fund we can start contributing to ?

17HMR

Sparks wrote:

But if you're willing to put hand in pocket already, can I ask that first you put hand on keyboard or even put pen in hand and write to people, whether it be to [url=mailto:brendan.howlin@oireachtas.ie?subject=Criminal Justice Bill 2004]Brendan Howlin in Labour[/url], or to [url=mailto:info@michaelmcdowell.ie?subject=Criminal Justice Bill 2004]the Minister himself[/url] or whomever your local TD is (or ideally, all three), and say you're not happy with the bill? Just click on either of those two links to open your email client with the address and subject line already set up.

Already on it... not that I have received a single reply to the 10 or so I've sent already. But will keep at as you're post suggests there is hope yet....

Vegeta

I just sent them both another e-mail

Sparks

Order for Report, Report Stage and Final Stages will all take place on Tuesday and Wednesday of next week. Then it's on to the Seanad.

Sparks

17HMR wrote:

If its being pushed through for July 6th then I imagine no further amendments (or amendments to amendments) are likely to be made.

I wouldn't bet on it. Firstly, the Minister himself has said that he intends to bring forward further amendments; secondly, Labour are drafting amendments based on the concerns we've raised here - and I'd be surprised if the NARGC aren't having Fine Gael do the same; and thirdly, I don't think that a bill that makes it a criminal offence with a custodial sentence of seven years to engage in target shooting on an unauthorised shooting range while not defining either "target shooting" or "shooting range" is going to do well in any court case, and possibly isn't going to be seen as being constitutional by a court. And odds are that that means the Minister will be trying to correct those problems himself as if the bill was struck out, he'd lose much of what he wants as well.

I'd suggest that shooters write to people, whether it be to [url=mailto:brendan.howlin@oireachtas.ie?subject=Criminal Justice Bill 2004]Brendan Howlin in Labour[/url], or to [url=mailto:info@michaelmcdowell.ie?subject=Criminal Justice Bill 2004]the Minister himself[/url] or whomever your local TD is (or ideally, all three), and say you're not happy with the bill. Just click on either of those two links to open your email client with the address and subject line already set up.