Criminal Justice Bill 2004

Sparks

And it's rather funny to see your own email printed out and being read in the Dail

Sparks

The amendment on being able to have an appeals mechanism for orders restricting firearms is being discussed.

Sparks

Minister has just been asked specifically if Olympic target shooting pistols will be banned.

Sparks

The question of why restricted firearms have to be licenced by the Commissioner has been asked.

Vegeta

all i can say is fair play to everyone who sent an email, every amendment may fail but at least our opinion has been aired early on

Sparks

Minister's response:

- Doesn't want to make it law that he has to consult with us, but "my door is always open". Hmph.

- Doesn't want judicial review of his decision on restricting firearms.

- Doesn't want the High Court to have any right to overturn his policy decisions.

- Says any order made can be appealed to him informally and immediately. "I'd have to admit that I was wrong and that's an uphill battle with me"

- Doesn't want Tipperary licencing AK47s while they're not licenced in Laois, so all restricted applications go to the Commissioner.

- Even though the muzzle energy depends on the ammunition used, "it's possible to describe a weapon as a "high-velocity" weapon because of its general characteristics" "no matter what bullets you used in it".

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

Minister's response:

- Doesn't want to make it law that he has to consult with us, but "my door is always open". Hmph.

- Doesn't want judicial review of his decision on restricting firearms.

- Doesn't want the High Court to have any right to overturn his policy decisions.

- Says any order made can be appealed to him informally and immediately. "I'd have to admit that I was wrong and that's an uphill battle with me"

- Doesn't want Tipperary licencing AK47s while they're not licenced in Laois, so all restricted applications go to the Commissioner.

- Even though the muzzle energy depends on the ammunition used, "it's possible to describe a weapon as a "high-velocity" weapon because of its general characteristics" "no matter what bullets you used in it".

McDowell really is a fcuking tool, he doesn't have a clue

Sparks

Howlin - the minister wants to do it (ie. to allow appeals) but not to make it legal that he has to do it. Stressing the point that it ought to be law.

The minister have a bit of a joke about whether or not it's the armed wing of Labour making the suggestions...

Sparks

Debate over the first part of 91, which formally says we have the right to ask the Minister to reconsider a restriction order. Minister has said he'll do it, why not make it formal? And the Minister is just ignoring the point...

Sparks

Amendment 88 being voted on. The Minister, Howling and O'Keefe now chatting away in the foreground.

civdef

I'm watching it here myself, and I have to agree with the minister here

- the High Court really hasn't a place to be overturning ministerial orders, and in my view would be most unlikely to do so anyway.

- The consultation ones would have been fairly toothless, as the minister was under no obligation whatsoeverto take any heed of them.

- the inconsistency across the country thing, is something we've all been complaining about lately.

- The muzzle energy thing is true to an extent.

Sparks

Still voting. BTW, if 88 is defeated, odds are 89-91 won't be contested.

Sparks

civdef wrote:

I'm watching it here myself, and I have to agree with the minister here
- the High Court really hasn't a place to be overturning ministerial orders, and in my view would be most unlikely to do so anyway.

I don't know about that - the Bill lets you contest other similar orders in the District Court.

- The consultation ones would have been fairly toothless, as the minister was under no obligation whatsoeverto take any heed of them.

Indeed. But apart from the "better to light a candle" argument, it's the sheer contempt he's expressing at the idea that's the remarkable part here.

- the inconsistency across the country thing, is something we've all been complaining about lately.

And which should be fixed with guidelines, not with centralising things, for reasons we discussed earlier to do with a lack of time given the number of applications that one person may wind up facing.

- The muzzle energy thing is true to an extent.

Yeah, but how do you treat borderline cases like an airsoft gun whose muzzle energy is very dependent on the ammo?

Sparks

The Dail's filling up now that a vote was called, by the way. Lots of sidebar chatting going on. Pity the microphones are turned off

Vegeta

civdef wrote:

I'm watching it here myself, and I have to agree with the minister here

- the inconsistency across the country thing, is something we've all been complaining about lately.

- The muzzle energy thing is true to an extent.

I agree we need consistency ironed out

Why should be high velocity rifles be restricted? Can someone explain the reasoning behind this cos i just don't get it. Does the Minister have evidence of these being used illegally by licensed firearms holders or something

In my opinion to ban a a gun because in has the potential to fire at high velocity is non sensical. Knives have the potential to be lethal we better restrict carving knives and bread knives.

The gun can fir at high velocity, so what?

as pointed out several times the .220 swift is very high velocity round when compared to some calibres bigger than it yet it has been licensed for years.

Am i missing something here, i must be. What are your views Civ

Sparks

Amendment defeated 67 to 58.
The other amendments were also defeated.

Sparks

Amendments 92, 93 being discussed.
The question on Olympic pistols was ducked. Which is a bit ominous to my mind to be honest.

Sparks

93 is on the two month overlap problem on the licencing renewal.

Howlin pointing out the problem specifically.

Sparks

Minister saying there's no problem, renewals happen immediately. (Which doesn't tie in with the club licencing legislation by the way).

Howlin saying if the renewals are so fast, why not make it one month for the gardai to renew?

Minister responds that the 3 months is for application and not renewals. He's been told he's wrong and it applies to both.

civdef

Why should be high velocity rifles be restricted? Can someone explain the reasoning behind this cos i just don't get it. Does the Minister have evidence of these being used illegally by licensed firearms holders or something

I think you might be missing something. This amendment will not instantly result in the banning of "high-velocity" rifles. It allows the minister to include muzzle energy as one of the criteria for determining that a firearm should be restricted (note not banned). It deson't mean that .220swift will be banned (or restricted) by this thime next week or anything like that.

Sparks

O'Keefe now saying that practicality and legal positions are different (and he's supporting the amendment).

Sparks

Amendment accepted by the Minister.

civdef

The question on Olympic pistols was ducked. Which is a bit ominous to my mind to be honest.

It might not be at all. Consider a minister who does not object to the idea of licenced pistols, but doesn't fancy a headline in tomorrow's paper aloong the following lines:

"Minister Opens Door for Irish Dunblane - lethal handguns to be freely available".

A public outcry over this is not in the interest of pistol shooters either.

Sparks

Amendment 92 was withdrawn, by the way.

94-96 now being discussed (this is saying that guidelines should be discussed with sporting bodies before the commissioner makes them).

Sparks

Civ, you know that that headline already could have been made after Frank's case and it only showed up in the Turbine and even there got buried several pages back.

Sparks

Well, at least O'Keefe knows we're a seperate group from the lads who shoot each other's cars on the M50 :rolleyes:

Sparks

Minister is saying that the Commissioner already does consult so it doesn't have to be law. Dunne v. Donoghue being brought up as the reason for these guidelines. Some guidelines shouldn't be made public (example, people who live near criminals ought to be far more strictly treated than those who don't).

Sparks

"Sometimes transparancy is brought too far"?
FFS...

Sparks

Howlin saying we see this as an overturning of the courts (Dunne) and making the Minister all-powerful in this area.

Sparks

Lots of debate on whether or not transparancy is a good thing.