Criminal Justice Bill 2004

CJhaughey

Sounds like reloading will be allowed but under what circumstances? Is it likely that the Superintendent will allow the average person to reload their own ammo?
I have to say that I am doubtful but then I am somewhat pessimistic with regard to this bill

whupass

so wait, under the present rule no one can reload their own gun? well then who does it?

Rovi

whupass wrote:

so wait, under the present rule no one can reload their own gun? well then who does it?

Erm... on the off chance that you're not joking... check out the last paragraph of Section 10A of Spark's excellent restatement
(http://www.wilkinstowntargetshootingclub.org/Documents/FirearmsActAmended/Section_10a.html)-
"(8) In this section “reloading ammunition” means making ammunition from spent ammunition, and cognate expressions shall be construed accordingly."

whupass

ok sorry i missunderstood no i'm a REAL newby
i was VERY sure it wasn't actually RELOAD THE GUN because my uncle always does that so i was wondering

thanks rovi

Sparks

Here's the restatement in microsoft word format.

whupass

any news on the sign date?

Sparks

whupass wrote:

any news on the sign date?

I called the DoJ about that this morning whupass, and what they're saying is that because the Bill is so large and covers so many areas, that different things will be signed in at different times. They haven't got a final schedule on that yet. The amendments to the Explosives Act should be in before Halloween, but the Firearms Act amendments don't have a date yet. I was told that they definitely won't be in place in time for this year's licence renewals though, and that the commencement orders will be announced on the www.justice.ie website as they come up.

Hauk

So we really have no accurate prediction on when firearms will be re-classified as greater than one joule of enery? Or will that be signed in soonish?

Thanks

Hauk

Sparks

Nothing with any greater accuracy than "a few weeks to a few months" I'm afraid Hauk.

Hauk

Okay, thanks Sparks, appreciate it

Hauk

atals77

Has anybody heard about Garda moves to get the Minister to ban 9mm handguns using the new Firearms laws being introduced. (No mention was made about other calibres).
Why single out 9mm? 0.40 and 0.45 calibres are just as dangerous if not more deadly. Anybody out there from the IPSA reading this. Have you guys heard anything as it will potentially have a big impact on your sport.
Are there any moves being made by shooting organisations to try counter this?

Sparks

Has anybody heard about Garda moves to get the Minister to ban 9mm handguns using the new Firearms laws being introduced. (No mention was made about other calibres).

Not about specific moves on a specific calibre atals, but we've been hearing informal natterings from gardai and others for over a year that the likely end scenario here is that air and .22 pistols will remain relatively easy to licence, while fullbore pistols would become "restricted" and would be harder to get licences for, if not impossible. Where'd you hear the 9mm story from?

Are there any moves being made by shooting organisations to try counter this?

*mutter mutter*

Sparks

Also, the final printed form of the CJB was released today:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=6076

This doesn't affect the restatement above by the way, that took into account the final amendments to the bill, it's just that this is all the amendments rolled into one document which now goes to the president for signing - and no, I'm not sure when that happens. In theory, she can refer it to the Supreme Court to check for constitutionality, but in practise, this president has no track record to suggest that will happen.

atals77

My local Super was telling me about it. I recently applied for a 0.22 pistol licence and he was telling me that the Gardai were trying to get the 9mm's banned. (They were "encouraging" people to use 0.22" calibres if they wanted a pistol and trying to get them to shy away from the centrefire stuff - I paraphrase)

whupass

is it still weeks/months, Sparks?

Clare gunner

atals77 wrote:

My local Super was telling me about it. I recently applied for a 0.22 pistol licence and he was telling me that the Gardai were trying to get the 9mm's banned. (They were "encouraging" people to use 0.22" calibres if they wanted a pistol and trying to get them to shy away from the centrefire stuff - I paraphrase)

Sounds like the old "military calibre" chestnut again:rolleyes: Ironic really,they are trying to restrict a world common calibre,and encourage people to use the most commonest calibre on ther planet,and the one that kills more people per year than any other.The humble .22

Sparks

whupass wrote:

is it still weeks/months, Sparks?

Still looks that way whupass. Especially with Barr due out this morning. Also, even though the Act will be signed much sooner, the actual parts of the legislation will be enacted with Commencement Orders from the Minister at different times, so that's the thing to watch for.

Rovi

Hmmm...
On the News at One just now, the Minister stated that the President signed the new firearms legislation into law last week.

Sparks

That's odd rovi, there's no mention of that on the oireachtas website or the DoJ website!

Hauk

I can't see anything on RTE.ie

Hauk

Rovi

Sparks wrote:

That's odd rovi, there's no mention of that on the oireachtas website or the DoJ website!

Here's the clip from the News at One-
http://dynamic.rte.ie/av/228-2158863.smil

Listen to what the Minister has to say from 2:20 minutes in.

Sparks

And from the Minister's statement today on the Barr Tribunal, which is now up on the DoJ website:

Firearms Legislation
The Criminal Justice Act 2006, signed into law by the President on Sunday last (16th July) substantially reforms the law in relation to legally and illegally held firearms. It includes the following provisions:

* expanded conditions that all persons wishing to legally hold a firearm will be required to satisfy, including the applicant's written consent for the Gardai to make enquiries from a doctor or psychiatrist , in relation to the applicant's medical history;
* increased fines and penalties generally for offences under the Firearms Acts;
* mandatory minimum sentences, of between five and ten years, for certain firearms offences, including possession of a firearm in suspicious circumstances, possession of firearm with criminal intent, possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life or cause serious injury to property, possession of a firearm while hijacking a vehicle, use or production of a firearm to resist arrest, and altering a firearm (such as "sawing-off" a shotgun);
* a requirement that secure accommodation has been provided for the firearm;
* provisions to allow the Minister to deem certain firearms as "restricted" by reference to specific criteria, including the calibre, action type and muzzle energy of the firearm. In future any person wishing to obtain a certificate for such a firearm will have to apply directly to the Garda Commissioner;
* introduces a statutory right of appeal to the District Court of decisions in relation to certificates;
* introduces a new type of certificate, which will allow young persons to be trained in the use of firearms for sporting purposes;
* introduces a new power for the Commissioner to make guidelines for the uniform administration of the Act;
* provides for the authorisation of rifle and pistol clubs and shooting ranges;
* introduces a statutory basis for an amnesty during which firearms and offensive weapons may be surrendered to the Garda Siochana before new penalties and minimum mandatory sentences are introduced. This will enable those in possession of firearms and offensive weapons, who are not in compliance with the legal requirements, to regularise their position, and thus enable the Garda Siochana to concentrate on more serious offenders;

Hauk

So any guesses when the Enactment thingy comes into play?

Thanks

Hauk

Sparks

None I'm afraid Hauk, but as soon as we see any sign, it'll be posted here.

zaitsev

Quote "provisions to allow the Minister to deem certain firearms as "restricted" by reference to specific criteria, including the calibre, action type and muzzle energy of the firearm. In future any person wishing to obtain a certificate for such a firearm will have to apply directly to the Garda Commissioner"

Does this mean the end of licensing for 223s and upwards or will membership of a recognised rifle club now be the only means of obtaining such a licence.
I cannot see many folk trapsing off to the Commissioner, its difficult enough to get a licence for these calibres as it.

Sparks

Noone knows for sure zaitsev. It certainly gives the Minister the power to do exactly that, but he's not saying what he'll do and noone knows as a result. And even if this Minister doesn't do so, it can be done by future Ministers at any point now.

edit: I should say that personally I'm quite pessimistic about this. Given the way the CJB was drafted and passed, and given the past history with the Minister and the poor way he's worked with us in the past, it'll take actual deeds for me to think this is going to be okay in the long term.

BTW, on the signing into law confusion, this from Iris Oifigiuil (page 2):

FOGRA
(Notice)
The Bill for the undermentioned Act was signed by the President on the 16th day of July, 2006 and has accordingly become law.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT 2006
(No. 26 of 2006)
LOUGHLIN QUINN
(Deputy Secretary to the President)
This 16th day of July, 2006.

zaitsev

I thought as much but was hoping you would disagree.

In any case I am going to go ahead with my application for a 223 licence and see what transpires.

The remainder of the Safety and Security recommendations I dont have a problem with.

Thanks for the info Sparks.

Sparks

zaitsev wrote:

I thought as much but was hoping you would disagree.
In any case I am going to go ahead with my application for a 223 licence and see what transpires.

Probably the best route - if it's a bolt action hunting rifle you should have an easier time than if it was an AR-15 type, that's about the most optimistic thing I can think of!

Thanks for the info Sparks.

Wish there had been some to give zaitsev.

whupass

Sparks wrote:

Iris Oifigiuil (page 2):

ok let me get this straight, the bill has been signed in making it law, right?

BUT each little section isn't enforced by the gardai until a later time. in what order are they going to be enforced? do some parts come in straight away?? most importantly to me at my age, has the muzzle energy part come in yet??????????????


thank you in advance Whupass

Sparks

That's pretty much close whupass. The actual Criminal Justice Act 2006 is already law; but most of these acts have bits built into them letting the Minister say when they come into force from. In the CJA, those bits are sections 2 and 3:

(2) This Act, other than Parts 11 and 13, shall come into operation on such day or days as the Minister may appoint by order or orders either generally or with reference to any particular purpose or provision and different days may be so appointed for different purposes or different provisions.
(3) Parts 11 and 13 come into operation on such day or days as the Minister may, after consulting with the Commissioner of the Garda Sıochana, appoint by order or orders either generally or with reference to any particular purpose or provision and different days may be so appointed for different purposes or different provisions

We don't know what order the sections will come into force though, nor when they come in. The DoJ didn't seem to know either when I asked. (I think they were waiting on the Barr Tribunal report). And finding out isn't trivial, it turns out. A good place to check would be here: http://www.ucc.ie/law/irlii/si/sidisprecent.php

...but it's not definitive. Soon as we see a commencement order, it'll probably be posted here first by someone. Until then, we're still running on the old set of rules.