Big Slick Rant

Iago

I'm sick to the teeth of the big slick, really really sick of it.

I can't count the number of times I've looked down and seen it with a smile, before mentally breaking up and fixating on how I'm going to lose with it this time.

Last night I had AK preflop on no less than 7 occasions and won once! just once, now I'm probably playing it wrong, but it's no less irritating for all that.

So my question is how should you play AK suited or otherwise? I've come to the conclusion that in future I'm going all-in when I see it from now on, because at least that way it's done and dusted with.

If you limp in with it and don't hit anything on the flop, then you have to lay it down to a medium to high bet, if you raise it to 2-3 times the blind and get a caller and don't hit on the flop what then, do you bet and hope the caller folds, do you check and then reraise or fold..

I would normally raise it to maybe 3 times the big blind, enough to prevent marginal hands from coming in, (so everytime I raise to 3 times the BB you know I have AK now ,call me it's safe!!) but once you get a caller you have to assume a reasonable hand and if you don't hit and either bet and get called or get bet into you have to lay it down...

Just interested in other peoples take on AK and it's merits, bad points...

I also think I was very rusty last night, haven't played in the fitz in ages and it showed.

Hyzepher

If you raise with AK pre-flop and don't hit you HAVE to bet out with it to see where you are - if a big bet comes in or a reraise then you have to lay it down.

Hyzepher

karlh

how best to play it???

throw it away!

it's a muck hand, being beaten by a pair of 2s!!

id consider limping from the small blind if they were suited tho.....

:cool:

Marq

What's good about ace-king is that it's very easy to get away from if you don't hit. I think lots of people over-value it and view it as a made hand. It's great multiway, particularly with 2 or possibly 3 other players. If you hit the ace or king and someone else has too, you stand to make a lot of money from it, it can be a powerful drawing hand, particularly when suited, as it's often drawing to the nuts; but if you hit nothing on the flop you can walk away cheaply. I don't agree that you should bet it after the flop "to see where you are". Most of the time the other player will let you know where you are by how he plays - why should it cost you a bet?

I vary my play depending on position and opposition as to whether I raise with Big Slick - but it's a hand that I love to be smooth-calling double and treble-blind raises with before the flop.

I might make a re-raise with Ace-King against one player if i believe they have a weaker ace. It can serve the dual purpose of getting more money into the pot from a player whom you have dominated, and also shows a lot of strength which might drive out players yet to act who have dangerous hands for an ace-king (ie medium pocket pairs. If someone has a bigger pocket pair that they're prepared to call a raise and a re-raise with, well you've just got to take your 50-50 shot and perhaps pay someone off. if someone has aces or kings behind you, more often than not they'll reraise all-in at this point, and you have to use your judgement).

Davey Devil

It's a bitch isn't it, best thing to do is try not to think of it as a good hand. When I first started playing poker I couldn't understand how anyone could lay it down pre-flop. Don't feel like you have to make chips from it. I used to always think - I have to take advantage of this great hand. Now I'd have no problems lashing into the muck

I like limping with it these days especially from early position. If someone bets pre-flop after your limp you can play the hand based on your opponent, against a tight player you can chuck it cause the best your probably going to be is 50/50 but if someone you fancy is abit of a nut(loads of them in The Fitz), you can go over the top and the worst your probably gonna be is 50/50 if he calls. Best thing about playing it this way is people presume you have slow-played Aces and are less likely to call.

However if nobody bets and you don't hit the flop you have no problem laying it down cause you have made such a small investment to the hand.

Just read what Marq says, quite simular except I'd never flat call a decent raise unless I had loads of chips or I was prepared to bet the flop no matter what came. Your just throwing chips away doing that. If you are prepared to flatcall a decent bet you should always bet the flop or even check raise. Most of the time your not going to hit you Ace or King so just calling and laying down on an un-hit flop will see you losing alot more chips in the long term.

Hectorjelly

I find Ak a very easy hand to play in shortstacked cash games, or tournaments. It is a difficult hand to play in deep stacked cash games, but thats a whole different subject. The great advantage that AK has, is that is almost never dominated. (I much prefer AK to QQ, for this reason, also you are much less likely to be up against AA or KK) With AK I always aim to not see a flop (by re-raising), or to be allin, which gives you the advantage of getting to see all 5 cards. If you play like this it also gives you the advantage that opponents will not know automatically that you have AA/KK if you go all in preflop.

AK loses its value against poor opponents who will call big raises with low pocket pairs.

Hectorjelly

Davey Devil wrote:

It's a bitch isn't it, best thing to do is try not to think of it as a good hand.

3rd/4th best hand you can get, although I like your limp reraising tactic.

Davey Devil

Suited it's 4th best, and yeah short stacked it's a great hand. However if you are in a tournament in comfortable position chip wise, players can often over-play an AK a suddenly find themselves out. That's where the hand becomes tricky to play.

dropsy

I'm sure I read somewhere that AK statistically plays better against fewer opponents and that would be my experience too...I would always raise with it or at least call raises .....with the exception of AA and KK you're at worst just less than even money plus you have the added advantage of having shown strength pre flop. There would be very few situations where I would muck that hand pre flop.

And if you are first to act, having shown strength pre flop you have to bet out if you're first to act whether you've hit or not - otherwise you have no idea where you stand if a bet comes back into you.

You might be losing with it short term Davey but long term it's a positive Ev hand.

Derry

Davey Devil

dropsy wrote:

You might be losing with it short term Davey but long term it's a positive Ev hand.

That's only if you see all 5 cards.

Samba

Here is my 2 cent on AKs and non, its crap unless you hit, so why raise preflop in the hope of hitting an A or a K, i flat call it, if i miss, throw it away.... (that would be in a serious tournament/big cash game, in a tournament, small stack, bb's i would raise, or go all in, but its big gamble and as Karl said 22 can take you out)

Ak is a worthless hand unless you flop something, infact I am of the opinion that any hand preflop unless you hit, is infact worthless(apart from the rockets, even the rockets apart from the A can be taken out on the flop). why bet on somthing uncertain? I like sure bets in poker, not long shots, with AA, you know you are on to a good one and you can confidently bet to dispose of the weaker hands, chances are with AK you are not going to raise in the manner you would raise with AA, so the people most likely to call/re-raise are those with, small pockets - 1010, Re-raisers- JJ, QQ, KK.

Is it a proven theory that AK are two cards which more often than others will come down on the flop? no not that I am aware so why are they so over-valued, i used to think AK was a raising hand, not any more, it is only a raising hand after the flop afaiac.

karlh

Karl was being sarcastic its one of my favourite hands.

you have to raise, reraise (or possibly only call a raise preflop) to keep out crappy drawing hands and muck that might flop 2 pair.

the only time i would ever lay it down preflop is if it would put me all in early in a tournie or if there are multiple players all in and i dont need to risk my stack.

Spiritus

Raise. All-in.

DeVore

I play this several different ways depending on the table. I might raise 2-3 times the blinds and then on just about any flop raise again if I dont get a tell from my opponent.

OR

Flat call (preferably in late position) and let all the others come in if they want, that disguises the power of your hand and you have AQ-10 BUGGERED if an Ace comes down. That way is for gamblers though as there is a LOT of risk.

As for betting after the flop if you raise.... it depends on the number of people you let SEE a flop. Remember with AK your opponents need to have hit or to already have a made hand. Otherwise you are winning so when that flop comes down 55J your KQ/AJ/33 opponent is feeling kinda icky. You dont need good cards to win. You need him to believe you have good cards to win. This is poker, not chess... you can *claim* you have him checkmated

DeV.

Samba

Fact is 22 can bust AK and i have seen it happen on more than one occasion, when i do flop a K or and A, i'll play it my way and i will decide for myself by players actions where i stand, i do not need to throw chips away to find out that information.

Ak is a treacherous hand that is highly over-rated, so far so good for my tactics and I will be sticking to my guns on this one, the way people talk about AK you would swear they have a made hand, when fact all you have a High card.... what good is a high card in Poker?it might be an A but that does not beat 22.....


Finding out where i am when i do hit the K or A has not been a problem for me as of yet, i have my tactics to do that, AK preflop raises are disastrous and I will unfortunately take Iago as an example of it.

Think of it like this, what are the odds of you hitting either card for everytime you play the hand? think of how many chips you are throwing away in hope of flopping somthing each time you raise with the hand.....waste of chips when you don't flop and then you are into bluff territory and clinging on to hope that your callers can't beat your high Card A.... whoopeee, no situation to be in, keep raising pre-flop with AK and 9 time out of 10 thats where you are going to land, so In short i would rather flat call, then decide where i stand.

Lafortezza

Samba wrote:

Think of it like this, what are the odds of you hitting either card for everytime you play the hand? think of how many chips you are throwing away in hope of flopping somthing each time you raise with the hand.....waste of chips when you don't flop and then you are into bluff territory and clinging on to hope that your callers can't beat your high Card A.... whoopeee, no situation to be in, keep raising pre-flop with AK and 9 time out of 10 thats where you are going to land, so In short i would rather flat call, then decide where i stand.

You *have* to raise with AK. You don't want to ket in the J9, Q6 type hands. You raise so that the only hands that call you are pocket pairs and KJ, AQ, A10, QJ type hands.
If you hit anAce or a King on the flop then you have the pocket pairs beaten and you have the AQ's and the KJ's out kickered.

You can't not raise, if you don't raise you'll let the 63o in the big blind hit his 6 and beat you. The less people seeing the flop the better, and those that do call your raise to see a flop are more likely to be holding a dominated hand.

If you're in early position and don't raise and the rest of the 10 players flat call then where are you, even if you hit your A or K or even both, then you'll have someone (or plenty more than 1 person) drawing to a far better hand than you.

You've got AK, you *have to raise*.

Marq

Obviously flat-calling an unraised pot pre-flop with AK is suicide. I don't agree that you should always raise with it though. If someone has raised already it will most likely drive out the weaker hands for you and you can smooth-call here with the added benefit of disguising the strength of your hand. As I said above, if I feel i'm up against a weaker ace with players to act behind me I'll nearly always re-raise. Flat-calling against one player who has a weaker ace (hopefully ace queen) can make a killing if the ace flops.

DeVore

I dont know how many times I have heard it said that "AK is behind to 22". Its not.

Yes, you heard me say it, AK is NOT behind to 22. Here's why:

AK is 50-50 with most hands when they are turned over. Its true that WHEN THE CARDS ARE ON THEIR BACKS 22 is a slight favourite.

There is a whole period of the game thats kinda important where the cards are on their fronts! Can your 22 stand a 400 raise on a 100 blind? My AK can, your 22 cant.

Can my AK be dominated by 33... nope! Your 22 can and in fact is dominated by 12 other hands where as my AK is dominated by only 2, AA & KK.

Can your hand dominate anyone elses? No. You are AT BEST 50-50 there is NO HAND that 22 dominates. Me? I can dominate Ax Kx and again have little to fear in doing so. I'm a decent favourite against QJ and other "live" cards.

I know what Samba is saying about playing a "Get em and Bet em" style and if you look at my previous post you'll see the first way I said I might play AK is to limp. I'll do that if there are 6 prior callers or something because even 5 times the big blind isnt going to make them all leave and the more of them that call it, the more value is in the pot to make it worth calling! In that situation I'll keep my chips for the bet when I hit.
But if you gave me a choice of AK or 22 UTG, man AK every time and twice on sundays.

Ironic as it might seem coming from Mr Probability here, this game isnt all about the cards, its also partly about hanging tough in a reraise situation or a multi way pot. AK can do that, 22 cant and so is a lesser hand in my opinion.

DeV.

Lafortezza

Marq wrote:

If someone has raised already it will most likely drive out the weaker hands for you and you can smooth-call here with the added benefit of disguising the strength of your hand. As I said above, if I feel i'm up against a weaker ace with players to act behind me I'll nearly always re-raise. Flat-calling against one player who has a weaker ace (hopefully ace queen) can make a killing if the ace flops.

Of course it depends on the exact situation as always.
But if a reasonable small stack raises in early position. Or a small stack goes all-in in early position, then I would often consider re-raising all-in if I had a big stack.
Tables often will flat call a small all-in after they see two callers, as they think "there's plenty of value in there and there's likely to be no more re-raises after that guy went all-in".

If a weak player raises from early position, and its folded round to me in late position, I might consider reraising all-in, to stop the button or the blinds coming in. AK is best against one other caller. You're either ahead if he has a weak ace or worse, 50-50 if he has a pair, or miles behind if he has AA or KK.

But I'd agree, after a raise and a few (3+) callers its best just to flat call.

Lafortezza

DeVore wrote:

Ironic as it might seem coming from Mr Probability here, this game isnt all about the cards, its also partly about hanging tough in a reraise situation or a multi way pot. AK can do that, 22 cant and so is a lesser hand in my opinion.
DeV.

Re-raising 22 after a raise and a load of callers is a bluff. A satisfying one at that if it comes off.

Samba

I play my way and earn a damn handsome sum doing so daily online(infact I am giving up the day Job in 3 months time), when those hands are let in and they hit, you will know about it very quickly and its time to put the AK down.......

I will not play AK unless it is in the right situation, a little bit predictable saying you have to raise with AK all the time don't you think?

The dangerous game of raising AK is if the pockets call and hit trips, then you are rightly screwed and trips played properly will leave you dead with most your stack gone.

I agree with you marq obviously if you are one of the last few to call then a raise is in order and hence disposing of the blinders, but how is it suicide if you fold your hand, you will be in the position to judge the strength of different peoples hands.

I have gotten AK roughly 30 times in the past 24hours, it has done absoloutely nothing for me 29 times out of the 30, in fact pockets have done more for me that AK.

In that early position you describe Luke, when I do hit the A and the K I will put down a considerable bet to put off anyone who wants to see the next card, I will do this firstly by checking, then you will clearly see the limpers and those who have somthing, does not work out everytime, but it does most of the time when you hit both.

Raising with AK everytime imo is not wise and you may aswell donate your chips to a favourable charity because I feel you are throwing them away.

If i raised everytime i was dealt AK, personally I would be cutting deeply into my profit, because I do see it often, I suppose I am mainly speaking from my experience from online Cash play, which differs vastly from Tourney play, in a tourney if the blinds are big and it is late in the game, yes a raise is Essential I agree at that stage in the game you cannot afford to let limpers in, but in early stages of play, you are simply taking too big a risk to your stack, wait it out, be patient, there will be many more hands to come, don't get so excitied over one.

As i said Luke, what if you encounter some crazy player who will (and you will)call with 22 and when you hit nothing call your bluffs and take you to the river, will you waste more chips on your highcard A?

To raise with AK, requires a certain situation, to raise with it everytime (for me) does not work.

Samba

I will also take AK any day of the week, that said, I would never raise with 22, and very rarely raise with AK.

Think everything that can be said, has been.

Hectorjelly

lafortezza wrote:

But I'd agree, after a raise and a few (3+) callers its best just to flat call.

I find this is the best time to make a substantial raise, if the stacks are deep you can get away from the hand if the orginal raiser reraises; as he is the only player who is likely to have AA or KK. And after a few callers, the flop is well worth taking down preflop.

Playing AK, and to a lesser extent AQ, is crucial to how well you do in large tournaments. Its all very well saying you will wait for A's or K's, they dont come round often enough to make this a viable strategy. I think if you find AK a trouble/losing hand, its because your playing it incorrectly.

In addittion to what De Vore said, AK is a better hand than 22, what are you going to do on the flop with 22? Bar hitting a set every card is a scare card.

Hectorjelly

Samba wrote:

Think everything that can be said, has been.

I was talking about tournament play, as were most of the other posters (IMO). Ak is a very different hand in cash games, the deeper the stacks the worse a hand AK is.

Samba

Edit-Just read that reply Hector


In short, AK early on, limping action, in a late position, considerable raise, late on in a tourney run with it.

But I do strongly disagree with your point Luke that it should be raised everytime.

Hectorjelly

Samba wrote:

I play my way and earn a damn handsome sum doing so daily online(infact I am giving up the day Job in 3 months time),

I assume you play NL, what stakes do you play? Ive played STTs and MTTs pretty constantly for nearly a year now, but recently Ive been working on my cash game. I play mainly 1/2 or 2/4 at VC. Its amazing how much of a difference there is between cash games & tournaments. I hate seeing AK in a cash game!

Samba

L and PL gives me shivers down my spine.

I stick to the 25/50 tables, playing 4-6 games at once, my cash game is rock solid and I rarely lose a buyin only lost 1. out of about 40 this week, only times i do is to stupid calls, bad beats (which you learn from very fast).

My style of play is quite boring but extreemely efficient.

I am not in a position to disclouse my earnings at this point in time , but it makes for comfortable living, I will say however, it is hard work, but enjoyable.

I play on VC on rare occasions, also I have been getting heavily involved in 1x1 tourneys, i've played 4 $100 1x1 tourneys and lost one so far today, about 20 minutes work for $300, i will break for the rest of the day and start with $20 tourneys tomorrow and build up a bankroll for a 50, then 100 and so on, i set daily targets etc, when i hit them im out.

Marq

DeVore wrote:

Can your hand dominate anyone elses? No. You are AT BEST 50-50 there is NO HAND that 22 dominates.

Well, to be pernickety about it. 22 dominates any hand which has another two in it. about 70:30. maybe that's not quite domination though. enough of that, funny story about a dominated hand:

Joe O'Neill raised all-in once from the SB at a final table (I know. Who'da thunk it?). BB thinks for quite a while, smiles and turns over his 6-2 saying "can't really call with that can I?". Joe says "The funny thing is, you think you're behind!" and shows his 4-2o.

DeVore

I knew someone was gonna pull me up on that. Ok 22 dominates A2 and any other hand with a 2 in it that isnt 22 but seriously, anyone playing those in early/mid position (if at all!) should have their head examined.
With AK I take the view that I can go into the preflop and post flop betting swinging and only be concerned about AA and KK. I'll slow play or min raise with it in early position.

DeV.

biteme

Marq wrote:

Well, to be pernickety about it. 22 dominates any hand which has another two in it. about 70:30. maybe that's not quite domination though. enough of that, funny story about a dominated hand:

Joe O'Neill raised all-in once from the SB at a final table (I know. Who'da thunk it?). BB thinks for quite a while, smiles and turns over his 6-2 saying "can't really call with that can I?". Joe says "The funny thing is, you think you're behind!" and shows his 4-2o.

I ended up last night with a horrible hand before the board came down last night in the freeroll. Three all in's, AA, KK and AQ. And I'm AQ. They may have been suited but I'm still miles behind. Was still nice to hit a Q on the flop and one on the river *god bless the river* Ahh I love the freeroll :P

Marq

You are an utter jambag.