Socialism: Yes or No?

shotamoose

omnicorp wrote:

Now people are going to think I'm crazy but...
I think Hitler is still alive.
They never found his body.
No one saw him get killed.

Maybe, Maybe him and the US politicians are great buddies

Hey, maybe the Easter Bunny's in on it too.
:rolleyes:

Sand

Firstly, trade was not always capitalist. Secondly, capitalist relationships did not become the dominant system of production for a long time, basically until after the start of the Industrial Revolution. Whenever and wherever free-wheeling capitalism draws in the majority or the entirety of the people, pressure builds to relieve the worst deprivations, the worst exploitations and to give people a fair chance to compete. Democratically elected governments then undertake the socialist reforms I described, and the end result is some form of mixed economy.

Trade may not always have capitalist as we recognise it, most modern definitions of it requiring tolerable administration of justice and property rights which werent always as strong then as now, but the two tenets of socialist economic policy - tax and redistribution were.....yet to be invented in any recognisable form.

Your making my point about the sustainability for me though - you seem to be disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing tbh. Socialism has changed from a revolutionary plan to reshape the world into little more than compassionate captialism - a small fix here and there to keep the capitalist economy on course. Socialism cant sustain itself.

Absolutely. But if you're in favour of equality of opportunities you have to be in favour of huge redistribution to wipe out every inequality conferred by the advantages of wealth and the disadvantages of poverty. At a very minimum, child poverty and homelessness of all kinds would have to wiped out. Glad to see you're on board with this radical agenda, Sand

Oh, to have equal opportunity then means equal wealth? Surely genetic inequalities are as important? Some people are smarter, some more attractive, some more charismatic, some have more drive - these dont play any role in a persons success in life?

Wealth is just another random variable - you can have a million euros but they wont help you in an exam if you dont have the intelligence and dedication to understand and study the subject. And a fool and his money are soon parted.

You have your definition of equal opportunities, I have mine - so long as a person is not barred from attempting to better themselves for reasons such as ethnic, cultural or political divisions then Id say equal opportunites exist - imperfectly given that were not peas in a pod, and some people are richer, and some smarter, and some better looking, and some funnier, and some more driven to succeed.

Well I think it's rather central to the argument of 'socialism - yes or no?' so no, let's have the argument. If you're talking about this thread then I think you've already lost the argument on education.

Oh right, did you catch the score on that one?

But no its not - if we were discussing the benefits of socialism vs capitalism wed be discussing the merits of worker collectives, the abolishment of representive democracy beyond worker councils and the complete rewriting of society from the ground up. What you view as so important is the merits of capitalist democracy borrowing authoritarian planned education and planned health from the USSR as opposed to capitalist democracy making education and health facilities tax free enterprises. Sure, under a government run health service immoral profiteering would be stopped - oh crap, the secret sale of organs by the Irish government health service! Well, state run services would be far safer - oh crap, Dublin Bus mows down passengers at a stop Gardai warned them in advance wasnt safe!

Thats how far Socialists have fallen - theyre not even arguing for a socialist system anymore - theyre arguing for a milder shade of capitalism. Which again was one of my original points about the unsustainability of socialism - the middle classes are the big voting bloc these days, not the unemployed. Socialists have to persuade the bourgeoise to support their class warfare.

What the hell are you talking about? Did you really say the United States is a pretty peaceful society?

Yeah - isnt it? One civil war/revolution in its history - unlike most or all of Europe whove had many, limited to the eastern seaboard, has assimilated remarkably well an incredible influx of immigrants without any Balkans style bloodbaths - fairly easy for people to move around internally unlike say Northern Ireland where prods and taigs cant get along, has withstood the tides of totalarianist fascism and communism when Europes anceint political structures collapsed under them, relatively few socialist uprisings unlike, say Weimar Germany or Europe 1848, which I think had a revolution in practically every major european power except Britain.

And this is only comparing it to Europe, because I understand that Europe=World in the minds of many of my fellow Europeans. It goes without saying that its fairly peaceful society compared to say ...Russia and its empire, Latin America, Africa, China, etc etc.

Umm, registration fees will be refunded if you're not in the position to pay for them. AIB/BOI will even offer a zero-interest loan to cover you in the interim.

Shhhhh - private solutions=teh evil!!!

Best solution would for students to protest somewhere. Then they could go back to their "free" education.

Now people are going to think I'm crazy but...
I think Hitler is still alive.
They never found his body.
No one saw him get killed.

Maybe, Maybe him and the US politicians are great buddies

You know something, youre right about one thing there.

Redleslie2

Sand wrote:

Yeah - isnt it? One civil war/revolution in its history - unlike most or all of Europe whove had many, limited to the eastern seaboard, has assimilated remarkably well an incredible influx of immigrants without any Balkans style bloodbaths - fairly easy for people to move around internally unlike say Northern Ireland where prods and taigs cant get along, has withstood the tides of totalarianist fascism and communism when Europes anceint political structures collapsed under them, relatively few socialist uprisings unlike, say Weimar Germany or Europe 1848, which I think had a revolution in practically every major european power except Britain.

America has a fairly bitter history of struggling for labour rights actually (chronology here) and there were a few invasions and then there's that thing where the native Americans got slaughtered and had all their land nicked but Sand ain't at home to Mr.Reality unfortunately. As his hero George Orwell says in his essay Notes On Nationalism:

"Every nationalist is haunted by the belief that the past can be altered. He spends part of his time in a fantasy world in which things happen as they should -- in which, for example, the Spanish Armada was a success or the Russian Revolution was crushed in 1918 -- and he will transfer fragments of this world to the history books whenever possible. Much of the propagandist writing of our time amounts to plain forgery. Material facts are suppressed, dates altered, quotations removed from their context and doctored so as to change their meaning. Events which it is felt ought not to have happened are left unmentioned and ultimately denied."

Is he saying that the 1848 revolutions and the demands for freedom of expression and association were bad things? Who knows. Who knows what goes through that dude's head.

By nationalism Orwell means 'the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests.' Capitalism and the US in Sand's case.

omnicorp

But why do you have to identify yourself with a particular country?
Patriotism breeds prejudice...

Redleslie2

omnicorp wrote:

But why do you have to identify yourself with a particular country?
Patriotism breeds prejudice...

He argues that everyone identifies with some grouping or other and we're all guilty of bias and prejudice. Perhaps it's not possible to be 100% objective but one can make a moral effort to at least struggle to be as objective as possible and prevent oneself becoming an automaton.

omnicorp

Do we have to have countries?
Couldn't we just have one international State?

shotamoose

Sand wrote:

the two tenets of socialist economic policy - tax and redistribution were.....yet to be invented in any recognisable form.

I'd be interested in when you think tax and redistribution were 'invented'. Tax has been around since some of the first urban settlements. And before the growth of states as we know them now, redistribution was common but mostly done through religious channels.

Socialism has changed from a revolutionary plan to reshape the world into little more than compassionate captialism - a small fix here and there to keep the capitalist economy on course.

Hardly a small fix here and there. The mixed economies of today's developed countries are a million miles away from the free-market capitalist paradise dreamt of by libertarians, as people like this keep reminding us. Fortunately, most democracies have realised that pure capitalism would be just as much of a nightmare as pure socialism. Just as there will always be markets, there will always be socialist policies, because that's what people want.

Oh, to have equal opportunity then means equal wealth? Surely genetic inequalities are as important?

No. This graph shows the average rank of cognitive development test scores at various ages by socio-economic status of parents (from the British Cohort Study). It shows that children with low early scores but affluent backgrounds tend to overtake children with high early scores from poor backgrounds. So genetic inequalities do not seem to be as important as wealth, and if we want to create real equality of opportunity for every person - given the accidents of birth - we should be act accordingly.

And a fool and his money are soon parted.

Or elected President of the most powerful country in the world.

You have your definition of equal opportunities, I have mine - so long as a person is not barred from attempting to better themselves for reasons such as ethnic, cultural or political divisions then Id say equal opportunites exist - imperfectly given that were not peas in a pod, and some people are richer, and some smarter, and some better looking, and some funnier, and some more driven to succeed.

That's a pretty laughable definition of equality of opportunity - hey, sorry you can't afford to go to college, it's just that some people are rich and some people are poor! You'll be a lot happier if you learn your place in the hierarchy!

What you view as so important is the merits of capitalist democracy borrowing authoritarian planned education and planned health from the USSR as opposed to capitalist democracy making education and health facilities tax free enterprises.

Sorry Sand, you've lost me there - is this supposed to make some kind of sense?

Sure, under a government run health service immoral profiteering would be stopped - oh crap, the secret sale of organs by the Irish government health service! Well, state run services would be far safer - oh crap, Dublin Bus mows down passengers at a stop Gardai warned them in advance wasnt safe!

Oh I see, you're just off on a rant. Yes, of course privately buses never crash and private hospitals would never sell organs. Meanwhile, back in reality ...

Thats how far Socialists have fallen - theyre not even arguing for a socialist system anymore - theyre arguing for a milder shade of capitalism.

Well, everyone except a few lone nuts is arguing for some form of mixed economy. By the same logic, the proponents of free markets have 'fallen' since most economically liberal political parties are quite comfortable with socialist policies in various areas.

gandalf

Omnicorp what age are you ? I'm detecting that your quite young because if you were any older you would realise that while alot of what you saying like one "international country" is all fuzzy and nice, it is not feasible :rolleyes:

By the way any more of the Hitler is alive crap without anything to back it up and I will ban you !

omnicorp

Well, then compare the privately run British trains to the Governmentally run French Trains.
There's no comparison.

gandalf

omnicorp wrote:

Well, then compare the privately run British trains to the Governmentally run French Trains.
There's no comparison.

Says who, please back that up !

omnicorp

Fine then.
British trains are renowned for being late.
There have been quite a lot of Train crashes on british railways.
The Engineers who designed the trains during the 50's were too lazy to replace the old railway lines to make a new high-speed train system so now they reap the consequences.

The French replaced the whole system when they installed the TGV.
The trains are on time.
The TGV is incredibly fast, comfortable and smooth.
I have never heard of a French train crash.
And did any British railway companies manage to beat an airline route?
The TGV did.
It beat the Paris to Brussels route.

Now I have backed it up.

gandalf

Nope I meant links from sources other than you. If you post general remarks like those and others here please be prepared to back them up with links to news articles and reputable sources.

British trains are renowned for being late.

Proof

There have been quite a lot of Train crashes on british railways.

Statistical proof that there have been less in France please

The Engineers who designed the trains during the 50's were too lazy to replace the old railway lines to make a new high-speed train system so now they reap the consequences.

Guess what back this up too please.

The French replaced the whole system when they installed the TGV.

Again just cause you say so means nothing, links?

The trains are on time.

Statistics ?

The TGV is incredibly fast, comfortable and smooth.

I take it you have travelled on it then ?

I have never heard of a French train crash.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2697833.stm
http://www.salmony.co.uk/trainacc.htm
http://danger-ahead.railfan.net/reports/rep2000/chasse-sur-rhone20000604.html

There are a few to start with.....

And did any British railway companies manage to beat an airline route?
The TGV did.
It beat the Paris to Brussels route.

Again proof please. If you plan to post here be prepared to back up your words with facts otherwise you'll be torn to pieces (verbally not physically obviously).

omnicorp

Fine then, I get it, Talk is cheap

Gordon

I'm interested in hearing what your talking Yam has to say about it though.

Redleslie2

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Man in pub - "Portugal won Euro 2004."
Me - "No it was Greece."
Man in pub - "You must support Greece then."
Me - "....."

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Lennoxschips

Exactly, it's like saying that the capitalists on here all support race seperation and slavery because the USA once did the same.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Lennoxschips

And did any British railway companies manage to beat an airline route?
The TGV did.
It beat the Paris to Brussels route.

Again proof please. If you plan to post here be prepared to back up your words with facts otherwise you'll be torn to pieces (verbally not physically obviously).

The Paris - Brussels air route has been shut down, as has the Paris - Lyon air route. International air passengers who arrive in Paris and want to continue on to Brussels or Lyon are booked on to the TGV by the airlines. The fact that there is still demand for domestic British air routes such as London - Manchester shows that rail in Britain isn't competing with air travel to the same degree as in France.

And as for proof that the TGV is faster than British railways... Do you also want proof that the sky is blue?

gandalf

No actually Lennox I was demostrating to our new poster that he shouldn't post statements without backing them up. I notice you left out other statements he made and only selectively choose that one/two.

It was up to him to clarify that Paris to Brussels comment not you.

Lennoxschips

No actually Lennox I was demostrating to our new poster that he shouldn't post statements without backing them up. I notice you left out other statements he made and only selectively choose that one/two.

I didn't "selectively choose" one or two, I just wanted to address that airline/train issue in France because I know it off the top of my head.

It was up to him to clarify that Paris to Brussels comment not you.

Well I've been on the Brussels - Paris TGV numerous times so forgive me for taking an interest.

gandalf

I forgive you my son

Now get back on topic !!!

Redleslie2

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I think the point has been made that the Nordic countries and some other socialist type states do not have inherently high unemployment rates, and don't necessarily hinder entrepreneurism as has been claimed by some people here. They also have the lowest levels of child poverty according to UNICEF. And Denmark, Holland, Norway and Sweden (and Luxembourg I think) are the only countries to contribute 0.7% of GDP to development aid as per the world bank and UN recommendations. That's not the same as saying they're utopias.

My own view is that if countries can switch to a war economy in no time at all in order to deal with a threat to humanity like fascism, then we should be doing much the same thing now to deal with climate change, overconsumption, and the rising gap between rich and poor, if we're have to any sort of sustainable future and avoid a bloody big all against all war. Or at least delay it for a while longer.

omnicorp

Good!

Since we're all equal here I think that Necromancer should be let back in the forum.
Plenty of people call me an idiot and they don't get banned.
Why should he be singled out?

gandalf

Because I saw that one thats why. Personal abuse is against the charter and the biggest sin on the list. He has accepted the ban.

omnicorp

I don't really find idiot insulting.
Is it possible to put up a thread and determine what is and isn't insulting?

gandalf

No!

omnicorp

Well, so much for democracy!
No, only messing, I see your point.
He did in =sult me even if it wasn't insulting.
Rules are rules...

gandalf

Boards as has been said many times in the past is not a democracy. Its a Benevolent Dictatorship. I've been trying to get Devore to drop the "Benevolent" bit for ages but he is too much of a blouse to do it

Now get back on topic !!!