Vegetarianism

Catsmokinpot

omnicorp wrote:

I am a Vegetarian.
People have said it's hard. It's not.
People have said I'm wrong. I'm not.

What do people have against Vegetarians?

its not hard neither is it wrong but it isnt right either, its a choice we are omnivorous, we have teath designed for eating meat and veg if you want to stick to veg well good for you. people dont like vegies because of

Boston wrote:

the selfrightous attitude that goes with it

omnicorp

pork99 wrote:

I stand corrected

Also to clarify the dates I've given above after a bit of Googling around it seems agriculture appeared 10,000 to 15,000 years ago, Modern humans also known as Homo sapiens sapiens appeared abot 200,000 years ago - it was Homo Sapiens immediate predecessor, Homo sapiens (archaic) also known as Homo heidelbergensis, which appeared about 400,000 years ago.

Actualy, There are no definitive guide to Human Evolution,
The Scientists won't agree on anything.

And can't we evolve further?

pork99

omnicorp wrote:

Actualy, There are no definitive guide to Human Evolution,
The Scientists won't agree on anything.

Wrong!

I've just given you the basic FACTS there. Which are actually fundamentally agreed on by MOST scientists. Except for the creationist nutballs I suppose.

These are established facts because what is known from the fossil record is verified by what molecular biology tells us about evolution.

Science doesn't know everything but that does not mean that science knows nothing.

Tommy Vercetti

I've been a vegetarian since I was 11, I avoid eggs and milk where possible, although it is pretty much unavoidable.

omnicorp

Tommy Vercetti wrote:

I've been a vegetarian since I was 11, I avoid eggs and milk where possible, although it is pretty much unavoidable.

Sadly, there are eggs in a lot of products.

omnicorp

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Just a reminder that apart from hunter-gatherers most of the worlds population for most of recorder history treated meat as a rare luxury. So it's not essential. Which French king was it that said he'd sleep happy if every family could have a chicken every Sunday. And families were bigger (in numerical terms) then than now. And chickens were probably smaller not being reared as intensively so one a week probably wouldn't go that far..

I agree, and can't humans do without meat now that we can farm?

The Corinthian

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Just a reminder that apart from hunter-gatherers most of the worlds population for most of recorder history treated meat as a rare luxury. So it's not essential.

Meat is not essential, but that does not imply that we should not eat it either. Even non-vegetarians would agree that we probably eat too much meat in modern Society. So while we should probably cut down on meat, that does not imply that we should not cut it out - we are, as has been repeatedly been pointed out, omnivores.

Which French king was it that said he'd sleep happy if every family could have a chicken every Sunday.

I’d hardly take that as a metrestick of diet - after all, which French queen suggested that those same French families should eat cake?

omnicorp wrote:

I agree, and can't humans do without meat now that we can farm?

Unless you hadn’t noticed, humans farm meat too, or had you missed the whole point to agriculture?

Too much meat does not constitute a good diet. Junk food does not constitute a good diet. Meat, in moderation, along with vegetables will, however, generally constitute a good diet. Indeed, arguably a far more healthy diet than a vegan one - which seems to be (given your comments) the direction you’re heading in.

omnicorp

The Corinthian wrote:

Meat is not essential, but that does not imply that we should not eat it either. Even non-vegetarians would agree that we probably eat too much meat in modern Society. So while we should probably cut down on meat, that does not imply that we should not cut it out - we are, as has been repeatedly been pointed out, omnivores.

I’d hardly take that as a metrestick of diet - after all, which French queen suggested that those same French families should eat cake?

Unless you hadn’t noticed, humans farm meat too, or had you missed the whole point to agriculture?

Too much meat does not constitute a good diet. Junk food does not constitute a good diet. Meat, in moderation, along with vegetables will, however, generally constitute a good diet. Indeed, arguably a far more healthy diet than a vegan one - which seems to be (given your comments) the direction you’re heading in.

I would NEVER become a Vegan!
How dare you...

The Corinthian

omnicorp wrote:

I would NEVER become a Vegan!
How dare you...

Your comments have been veering further and further in the direction of rejecting all animal products (e.g. eggs) and in the belief that one of the principle wrongs of meat eating is the rights of animals. Taken to its natural conclusion, it becomes Veganism.

Given this, I suspect there’s inconsistency in your position. You have already commented that animals are “living things” (which I take to mean that you empathize with them at some level), so the exploitation of animals (such as the use of their unfertilized eggs as food) should be abhorrent. Of course, I would be interested to know, how many wollen jumpers you may have? Or leather or suede jackets? Or feathered pillows? Do you eat processed foods that will contain animal fats (such as chocolate)? What are your shoes made of..?

One would have to observe that if any of the above is true of you, that you would have limits to your convictions about those “living things” you were weeping over, earlier in the thread.

Lafortezza

God I love steak.

Capt'n Midnight

Just a reminder, if you use soya as a replacement for animal protein, a lot of it is GMO especially if they don't say it isn't.

bombidol

Havent eaten meat in roughly 10 years. gave it up after a combo of finding the thoughts of eating the flesh of a dead animal repulsive and the sickening animal slaughter trade.
I dont look down on anyone who eats meat as its a personal choice that we all make. I've found some Vegitarians and Vegans very pushy in their ways but most are regular folks.
The fact that we have canines and Eyes on the front of our head means nothing in this day and age, we have mentally evolved further than phyically in my opinion, canines and front facing eyes are for hunting and eating flesh. when was the last time you hunted for food?
what im trying to prove here are that both sides of the argument are flawed, Meat eaters look down on Vegitarians and Vegans for not eating Animals and Vice versa.
Officials agree that too much processed food is consumed these days that should be our number one concern.
As for health, its over ten years since i stopped eating meat. Dont eat Fish Either and And i feel anyone who claims to be Vegitarian and eats fish is fooling themselves. ( thats another rant for another day) I rarely if ever take Vitamins but i do eat as healthy as possible. I havent had a bad cold or the flu in most of that 10 Years while before that i suffered with them every year. I've bee at my healthiest while not eating meat and i plan to continue that way.
When i have children, personally id prefer them to be vegitarians until they can make their own choices. and up until them im responsible for their well being and health and ill do what i feel best for them. Of course this will have to be a choice between me and the childs mother

gar

omnicorp

bombidol wrote:

Havent eaten meat in roughly 10 years. gave it up after a combo of finding the thoughts of eating the flesh of a dead animal repulsive and the sickening animal slaughter trade.
I dont look down on anyone who eats meat as its a personal choice that we all make. I've found some Vegitarians and Vegans very pushy in their ways but most are regular folks.
The fact that we have canines and Eyes on the front of our head means nothing in this day and age, we have mentally evolved further than phyically in my opinion, canines and front facing eyes are for hunting and eating flesh. when was the last time you hunted for food?
what im trying to prove here are that both sides of the argument are flawed, Meat eaters look down on Vegitarians and Vegans for not eating Animals and Vice versa.
Officials agree that too much processed food is consumed these days that should be our number one concern.
As for health, its over ten years since i stopped eating meat. Dont eat Fish Either and And i feel anyone who claims to be Vegitarian and eats fish is fooling themselves. ( thats another rant for another day) I rarely if ever take Vitamins but i do eat as healthy as possible. I havent had a bad cold or the flu in most of that 10 Years while before that i suffered with them every year. I've bee at my healthiest while not eating meat and i plan to continue that way.
When i have children, personally id prefer them to be vegitarians until they can make their own choices. and up until them im responsible for their well being and health and ill do what i feel best for them. Of course this will have to be a choice between me and the childs mother

gar

did anyone hear of that Romanian Vegetarian who, whan he ate meat for the first time in 12 years he choked and died?
It was in the Irish Times.

Tusky

Im a vegetarian simply because I was raised that way. In some ways im very happy to be a vegetarian and in others im not so happy. I would never ever look down on someone who ate meat though , thats just idiotic.

I do think that humans are omnivours - But at the same time I think we have evolved to a certain extent . I dont agree with the mass slaughter of animals nor the manor in which they are killed - However Im not a fanatic on the subject , Have never done research or done anything to stop it. Ive never even talked openly about my views. Im the opposite of being 'self righteous' about it actually. When people find out im a vegetarian more often than not ( much more often ) they take the offensive. They seem to think that just being a vegetarian is spitting on their way of life....in my case anyway it couldnt be further from the truth ! Im actually quite embaressed and uncomfortable with it usually !

pork99

There's a lot to be said for Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's approach to meat eating - it's best to only eat meat you know personally - i.e. you have raised yourself ( I know it's not practical for most people)

http://www.rivercottage.net/foodmatters/article.jsp?ref=foodmatters.200304115126

The Corinthian

omnicorp wrote:

It was in the Irish Times.

Then it must be true :rolleyes:

seamus

omnicorp wrote:

did anyone hear of that Romanian Vegetarian who, whan he ate meat for the first time in 12 years he choked and died?
It was in the Irish Times.

There are thousands of people who choke and die every day. What's your point?

omnicorp

A bit Ironic really, you know, his first taste of meat for 12 years.

omnicorp

seamus wrote:

There are thousands of people who choke and die every day. What's your point?

A bit Ironic really, you know, his first taste of meat for 12 years.

The Corinthian

omnicorp wrote:

A bit Ironic really, you know, his first taste of meat for 12 years.

Not to mention irrelevant.

omnicorp

The Corinthian wrote:

Not to mention irrelevant.

Fine, it's irrelevent.
But I still think that vegetarianism is right but I'm not going to force anyone into agreeing with me

The Corinthian

omnicorp wrote:

But I still think that vegetarianism is right but I'm not going to force anyone into agreeing with me

No one is expecting you to force anyone into agreeing with you, but a cogent argument would be a refreshing approach upon your part.

omnicorp

The Corinthian wrote:

No one is expecting you to force anyone into agreeing with you, but a cogent argument would be a refreshing approach upon your part.

As is pretty obvious, I can't have a cogent argument(!)
No, only messing, I'll try...

Tusky

omnicorp - May I ask your age ?

omnicorp

Tusky wrote:

omnicorp - May I ask your age ?

No, does is matter?

amp

omnicorp wrote:

As is pretty obvious, I can't have a cogent argument(!)
No, only messing, I'll try...

Please do.

omnicorp

amp wrote:

Please do.

but it's hard... and whats wring with my arguments?

The Corinthian

omnicorp wrote:

but it's hard... and whats wring with my arguments?

Your initial post was dogma rather than argument. At best opinion, at worst a glib rant.

Your second post was a far better attempt at an argument and you even cited a source. Unfortunately it was later soundly rebutted.

Your third post was more dogma, and was a justification for why you have inform people of the error of their ways, rather why they were wrong in the first place. It also bordered on being religious in its delivery. Less said about your fourth post, the better.

Next we had a number of attempted arguments all in one post. Firstly a man of straw argument, where you introduced a false argument opposing your view, debunked it (dubiously) and used this as proof that you were correct - which of course is a logical fallacy. Next you pointed out that animals are living things - unfortunately this was not a very well thought out point as it was quickly pointed out that plants are too.

You then postulated that we can get protein from vegetables (which may be true, but in itself not a reason to be vegetarian) and capped it off with the statement that vegetarians often live longer than omnivores - which taken literally is true (and omnivores will often live longer than vegetarians at the same time). If your meaning was that vegetarians generally or on average live longer than omnivores, then in argument you would have to back up such a claim with evidence, otherwise is convinces no one – after all one could state that omnivores live longer than vegetarians, without evidence, and their claim would be as valid as yours.

After that post was dismembered by the other posters and was thankfully forgotten, you threw in a new implicit argument which turned out to be irrelevant. Which finally led you to giving up any argument and simply state that you believed it was right, even though you had been unable to articulate any reason why it was so.

So, essentially your ‘arguments’ consisted largely of sentiment (i.e. it is true because you feel it is true) and, some irrelevant points and a handful of pretty shaky assertions. A cogent argument would require that you have reason to argue that vegetarianism is in some way preferable to omnivorism, and to cite relevant evidence of this to back up your reasoning. As an observation, you flirted with both the health and animal rights arguments, however you never properly developed either, and so the little you said simply came across as dogma.

That’s what was wrong with your arguments.

Capt'n Midnight

omnicorp wrote:

but it's hard... and whats wring with my arguments?

Not eating meat means less tryptophan in your diet so you don't feel as sleepy after eating and could get up to an hour a day extra awake.

So if you go from 15 to 16 hours awake on average (say) then over a 70 year life this would give you the equilivant of ~ 4 extra years awake.

Kev

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Not eating meat means less tryptophan in your diet so you don't feel as sleepy after eating and could get up to an hour a day extra awake.

So if you go from 15 to 16 hours awake on average (say) then over a 70 year life this would give you the equilivant of ~ 4 extra years awake.

Maybe you should have checked your facts first.

http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/FoodSafety/foodtryptophan.php

seamus

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Not eating meat means less tryptophan in your diet so you don't feel as sleepy after eating and could get up to an hour a day extra awake.

So if you go from 15 to 16 hours awake on average (say) then over a 70 year life this would give you the equilivant of ~ 4 extra years awake.

That's interesting, because I had commented in a thread before, that I tend to feel more energised after a meal, whereas most others feel sleepy or just want to veg in front of the telly (although if it's a HUGE meal, like at christmas, me too). That might explain it.

Stabshauptmann

Its amazes me how Omnicorp started a thread wondering what ppls problem was?

I eat meat, I eat alot of it, i get pissed off when Im forced to go without it; which happens more regularly than I would like .

I do not however presume that others share my love of meat, I never order for other ppl and when Im in charge of dinner I see what ppl want. Personally, I associate meat with quality. I feel its good value and gives me more energy.
Because I view it as a quality thing I most certainly NEVER eat in MacDonalds or Burger King. If I need fast food I get a roll in centra or for a treat a chinese.
I also believe that a quality meal means vegtables. We used to grow our own but now buy them directly from a larger farmer. It was easier and cheaper.

The whole veggie thing, .., I dont think it would suit me. I have a very active lifestyle and dont believe I would be able to stay healthy and energetic if I cut our meat.
I do however feel concern for animals. I have had several dogs and I feel quite angry when I see animal cruelty and thus am opposed to mass production. I dont see any cruelty in the way Irish beef is produced, or any of the other EU meat I buy. I eat free range chickens although I think I made this decision more out of concern for my own health than theirs.

I dont know, maybe I am a bad person, maybe I am one of those out of sight out of mind ppl. I never see the cow being killed etc. But so long as the cow is treated well while it is alive and I recieve a quality product (which more and more vegtables arnt IMO these days) that provides the proteins I need to live the active life I need I'll continue to eat meat.

There is the whole clear biological thing too. We evolved because of the complex proteins we ate. We are designed to eat meat and this isnt a religious belief its an observation on nature. I cannot see why its wrong, as a human, to eat meat the only concern I can see is the quality of that meat and the well being of the animal during its stay on earth.

omnicorp

well, you make a point but... I'm not convinced

The Corinthian

omnicorp wrote:

well, you make a point but... I'm not convinced

You're not convinced because..?

1. Irrational warm fuzzy feeling
2. I'm going to stick to my guns, even though I've realized I don't have a clue.
3. Other - Please state reasons.

omnicorp

probably "a" woops, fell over...

flogen

I was about to give my stance on eating meat, but I realised that it's pretty much on par with Necro...:)

On a personal level, I certainly don't hold vegetarians or vegans in any lesser degree than someone else just because they dont eat meat. If I were interrupted by someone during my dinner to tell me that meat was murder and I was a killer etc. etc., well that would be a different story, but it's never happened to me and I don't expect it to.

I guess it all boils down to Bill Hicks' stance on drugs (and issues like this), what difference is it to you what I do, say, think, or take into my body as long as it has no effect on you? (paraphrase, btw).

flogen