the rules of socialising.uhh

Raz

The Song Thrush wrote:

I think the worst is when you're at a bus stop and a bus that you're not getting stops while you wait for your own bus, and half the people on bus are staring out the window at you. I notice it's mostly old ladies... why do they stare at you so much?

I generally just stare back. Eye contact, shmeye contact. I want to see what the people in the bus are lookin at/doing. Sometimes they're looking back at me, sometimes they're reading, sometimes they're asleep with they're faces pressed against the glass in wierd ways. People are interesting.

I also stare babys in the eyes when on busses or in the streets. I'm just hoping some random person will grow up with my smiling face imprinted in their minds and have no idea why!

munkeehaven

yeah babies stare a lot.i get a laugh when little kids look at me and say ''hey momma that girl is brown'' and the parents are usually mortified and all ''sorry about that'', but hey the kids are just making a point, little children are good at spotting out differences.one time a little girl said it when i was in mass (dont go anymore bit thats another story) and she says it out loud and i had to supress my laughter when isaw the look on everyones faces.

fragile

People who feel the need to have all important data printed and stored in a filing cabinet, even when it is already stored on our RAID file server, which is backed-up to tape twice a week especially data that hardly ever changes such as ISP account details etc., especially when it is a software development company....why! why the fu(k does it have to be put in a filing cabinet

ando

Raz wrote:

I also stare babys in the eyes when on busses or in the streets. I'm just hoping some random person will grow up with my smiling face imprinted in their minds and have no idea why!

your weird

Flukey

If you are walking down the street and make eye contact with someone coming towards you, there is one thing that you can do to make it appear that you are not looking at them. As you continue instead of keeping lokking at them, don't move your eyes, so it is like they happened to pass through your line of vision.

Selik

I'm just can't help but stare, and I mean STARE, at hot women when I'm crusing around the place (City Centre in particular). It's impossible not to and to make things worse I'm ridiculously obvious about it as well!

One of these days I'll crash my car because of it... :eek:

dirtyharry1971

Yeah maybe I'm a freak but woz on the bus last week and it was empty I had a double seat to myself which I like as I am pretty tall 6ft so it gives me some space to stretch my legs and some elderly bloke sits right beside me forcing me to huddle up against the window. This p*ssed me off but I felt powerless due to my polite nature. I just don't understand why he didnt sit in one of the many free seats available. If only he could have read my mind he would have got up fairly sharpish I tell ya

Raz

Giles wrote:

One of these days I'll crash my car because of it... :eek:

There are some things more important .... Keep your eyes on the frikin road!
If I ever get knocked down in the city center I'll be asking the driver if he's Giles on boards. If it's you then you can tell your friends that you got your ass kicked by a guy you crippled with your car!

Flukey

Giles, you should walk around town. That way you won't have the risk of crashing plus you'll have more time to look at the women, instead of whizzing past them!

elivsvonchiaing

I know this goes back a bit in the thread. Here goes anyhow...

I hate it when you follow all the rules and it all goes pearshaped anyhow.

Some weeks ago in work I stormed into the jax in serious difficulties. However, I did take time to observe that the end cubicle was occupied (by who - don't know - don't care - as you don't) and following etiquette went for the other end cubicle. Knowing no-one saw me come in and because of my state of distress went through the full spectrum of lavatory noises. Finally, I decide since there's no activity from the end-cubicle I'll make a move. Just then my feckin phone rang and I had to take the call.

I was mortified. Still no idea who was in the other cubicle

ur mentor

so social etiquette thread so far
we are afraid to share a seat on a bus in case person smells
afraid to use toilet beside an occupied one
afraid to talk to strangers even those we recognise and have seen many times before
afraid of people staring at us especially if they are senior female citizens,
afraid to talk to shop assistants or customers
afraid to kiss relatives on cheek
afraid to leave a group before 'time'
I thought the sum of social behaviour was a reflection of the culture in which we live. Are we all afraid now?
Traditionally we were regarded as chatty friendly. Other nationswere regarded as very close intimate with lots of hand holding (eg French/Italian). Some others are known to be stand offish (Germany/Japan). Some very interesting social studies on this. Scientists have actually measured distances people stand apart from each other in different conversation modes.
Looks like they will have to review the Irish scenario as we appear to be moving from traditional state.

Selik

Raz wrote:

There are some things more important .... Keep your eyes on the frikin road!
If I ever get knocked down in the city center I'll be asking the driver if he's Giles on boards. If it's you then you can tell your friends that you got your ass kicked by a guy you crippled with your car!

Keep your hat on dude, there was a tiny element of tongue-in-cheek in that statement.

Flukey

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

Still no idea who was in the other cubicle

Maybe it was the person who phoned you!

elivsvonchiaing

Flukey wrote:

Maybe it was the person who phoned you!

Hehe. It was my sister actually. So this guy knows I'm talking to my sister in all my glory with cacks down by my ankles and pretending I'm just sitting at my desk Hence the embarassment

Gordon

Why did you pick up the phone you nutcase?!

elivsvonchiaing

Gordon wrote:

Why did you pick up the phone you nutcase?!

'Coz if I didn't chances were I'd lose out on a good deal. Someone my sister works with was selling a DSL wireless router with firewall for 60 quid. The embarassment was worth it in the end - er - hopefully this remains true after the Xmas party

Besides, I already felt embarrased: I presumed they recognized the ringtone and knew who I was - so I thought wtf? It's only thinking more about that I'm still embarassed.

chewy

i used to avoid talking to strangers at all costs and over the years i realised that wasn't the best way to be, it was rude and closed, and now will respond to people and even occasionally engage people when out and about...

people you know but havn't seen for years? thats antoher toubling one

there was a girl in college who used to be in primary school with me and in first year in college i would occasionally see her about but never directly acknowledge her, cos basically i hadn't known her for about ten years...
then she joined my climbing club and became friends with my friends so therefore i had a reason to talk to her but it was very awkard at first...

Flukey

Elivsvonchiaing, maybe the guy in the other cublicle was deaf. If when you were leaving you heard a thud from inside his cubicle, that probably meant his sense of smell was perfect!

If you have a pretext to talk to strangers, it is easier. Coming up to someone and just starting to chat to them, is not as easy. If you see someone with a map looking around them, it's easy to stop and help them, but if they were just standing there, you would find it a lot harder to talk to them. People get suspicious of your motives, unless you have a very clear reason for talking them.

elivsvonchiaing

Flukey wrote:

Elivsvonchiaing, maybe the guy in the other cublicle was deaf. If when you were leaving you heard a thud from inside his cubicle, that probably meant his sense of smell was perfect!

Come to think of it there was a thud - and there was me dreading the Xmas party

Flukey wrote:

If you have a pretext to talk to strangers, it is easier. Coming up to someone and just starting to chat to them, is not as easy. If you see someone with a map looking around them, it's easy to stop and help them, but if they were just standing there, you would find it a lot harder to talk to them. People get suspicious of your motives, unless you have a very clear reason for talking themWould have to agree with this.

Who knows how the human mind works - but your comment re-triggered a memory I had forgotten. I was drinking with a mate of mine and his gf in some village I'd never heard of before in Kent some years back. Only she had been there before doubt if he's been back since or remembers its name. We were out in the beer-garden and heard a fracas going on inside. She being nosy as women are (ok men too - but she was the nosy type) went in to the loo purely to investigate.

About 10 mins elapsed. We heard a guy kerb-crawling over the hedge on the road outside: <Paedophile voice>"Hello little girl! Would you like to get in my car? If you do I'll give you an orgasm!" We looked over the hedge after they passed. She got in and they drove away. The gf IDed them. She was fifty and he sixty at least

Just thought I'd just add that

Basically with people we know we can try anything on. But I still think there are chicken sexers out there who know what to say to a stranger to chat em up or sell them something they don't want. Part of me wishes I was one of them - but I'm not sure.

E.g. Was in Amsterdam on my own (just between hotels)- and I see a pusher approach a bunch of tourists speaking French to them. They gave him the two fingers and then I approach - he immediately starts his spiel in English. He probably knew I wasn't English and came from North Dublin in fact. Spooky or what.

Flukey

You just have to be on your guard with people like that, which basically brings us back to square one on not talking to strangers. I was in PAris once and we happened to be staying near the red-light district of the city and where there were also a lot of peep shows. (You'll often see that lovely photo of the Moulin Rouge, well it is surrounded by peep shows and other such establishments.) Anyway, while walking around the area there would be guys almost dragging you to go in to one of their shows and being very insistent and push. You basically had to turn around and very firmly tell them Non! Of course some people would use more colourful language to do so, than I would and of course some of you might say Oui!

blobert

It seems a real shame that the only people that talk to strangers at bus stops etc. tend to be slightly mad. People tend to move to cities in order to be around lots of people yet I've found the bigger a city you go to the more lonely and isolated it seems.

I may be a little off the point:)

Flukey

To get that sense of community you need somewhere where most people know each other or where people are drawn together for a common cause. There are a lot of people out there. As much as you will see the same people in more or less the same locations at more or less the same time each day, everyday you will also see people that you have never seen before and never will again, yet they are there everyday too, going on with their lives. There are an awful lot of us out there!

elivsvonchiaing

blobert wrote:

It seems a real shame that the only people that talk to strangers at bus stops etc. tend to be slightly mad. People tend to move to cities in order to be around lots of people yet I've found the bigger a city you go to the more lonely and isolated it seems.

I may be a little off the point:)

No I don't agree (that you're off point). I lived in very small countries and London - and would have to agree with this. The only disadvantage is that if its small everyone knows your business which can quickly drive you nuts. To the best of my knowledge Bermuda has one (General) Hospital and two mental hospitals. Dunno if this is true still.

Flukey

Its a matter of finding a balance. Anonymity is nice sometimes. Sometimes it is good that you only "that guy that is on the bus every morning" and they don't know who exactly you are. Other times you would be overhearing an interesting conversation, but wouldn't want to butt in, because you don't know the people.

Flukey

Another one on the etiquette is how we react to other peopel doing something we do ourselves and how when we do it we are cautious about being seen. Classic is scratching your arse in public. If you see anyone else doing it you react in a particular way, usually with some disdain. You might even tell someone about it. "I saw this guy on the train this morning and there he was scratching his arse!" Of course the next time you might be the one doing it and then suddenly you are trying to do it subtlely so no one sees what you are actually doing and you look upon it in a completely different way. Then when someone else does it again you are back to your disdain, thinking how terrible it is and that you would of course never do such a thing in public!

elivsvonchiaing

Flukey wrote:

Another one on the etiquette is how we react to other peopel doing something we do ourselves and how when we do it we are cautious about being seen. Classic is scratching your arse in public. If you see anyone else doing it you react in a particular way, usually with some disdain. You might even tell someone about it. "I saw this guy on the train this morning and there he was scratching his arse!" Of course the next time you might be the one doing it and then suddenly you are trying to do it subtlely so no one sees what you are actually doing and you look upon it in a completely different way. Then when someone else does it again you are back to your disdain, thinking how terrible it is and that you would of course never do such a thing in public!

This is slightly off-post- but does belong here I think. It's an amazing fact men feel the need to piss in a straight line. Bisect the urinal/toilet bowl with an arc of piss. I have found sites supporting me/lambasting me. Just wonder what folk will find here.

{Edited ??? wtfwit??}

Chucky the tree

Flukey wrote:

Another one on the etiquette is how we react to other peopel doing something we do ourselves and how when we do it we are cautious about being seen. Classic is scratching your arse in public. If you see anyone else doing it you react in a particular way, usually with some disdain. You might even tell someone about it. "I saw this guy on the train this morning and there he was scratching his arse!" Of course the next time you might be the one doing it and then suddenly you are trying to do it subtlely so no one sees what you are actually doing and you look upon it in a completely different way. Then when someone else does it again you are back to your disdain, thinking how terrible it is and that you would of course never do such a thing in public!

the worst is when your standing waiting for someone, and they are taking a while.

so your standing there and your mind starts to wonder, and you dont notice the people around you. then you snap out of it and realise people are starring at you while your rearranging the ol' meat and 2 veg.

i am sure picking the nose is another one, we all do it, yet are shocked when we see other people do it

munkeehaven

i sometimes cant eat in front of people i am not very familiar with. :rolleyes:

chewy

i don't like that either and i don't like watching people eat either

munkeehaven

yeah, watching people eat sometimes makes me feel a bit sick.esp when they are stuffing their faces.and you can tell the people who are just going to throw it up afterwards, they sort of eat in a desperate sort of way.

ChipZilla

naughty_girl wrote:

whats annoying is people thinking you are their personal shopper, and they come up to your till or the help desk and are like "oh do you have this. will ya get it for me, now. where is it, im still waiting, whats the problem"

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh customers are EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL :mad:

o and giving you the exact change especially when theres a queue, and they have tons of 2+5 cents. just throw it away noone wants your crap, especially when its busy, its annoying, cause one has the change right by the time they count out their crap. its especially annoying when you have entered the amount they gave you, are counting the change and then they say "o i have the exact 97cent," and proceed to insist on giving it to you in one cent coins.

i hate people who do that. and whats more you cant say "no its/im too busy for exact change," cause they shock out and its not fair. people treat workers like crap.

EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL EVIL

GROWL

Dumbass, what are you doing in a customer service job if you can't handle the everyday sh1t that customers do?

If you did have the neck to tell me "im too busy for exact change" you'd be getting the change thrown in your face.

GROWL

Jamesobrady

Hey all,
i think this ranks as the most interesting thing i've read all month!
Social do's and don'ts......for what comes to mind.....

Its easier to be ignored by a stranger then be the person ignoring.

You have to look down when using a urinal...not straight ahead or you're a showoff....and you can't make conversation with anyone when waiting for the hand dryer.... and if you're drying your hands and conversation is started by the person waiting you have to just smile oddly..nod...and make a kind of hmmmmph noise.

Nobody argues the fact that they were in the que at the bar long before the girl who has just been served, but will cause hell if the round increases in price by 20 unexplained cents.

I prefer to stand on a dublin bus if there's only one or two seat lefts and i can lean on a rail....saves the whole awkward situation where an older/pregnant person gets on and stands near you. If your standing you cant be embarassed by offering your seat and being turned down.

People in ireland are terrified of sitting beside Africans. Why? Every african guy/gal i have met on public transport has been outgoing and friendly, smiled when i sat down,made a small-talk comment about something and asked me if i wanted a conversation.

Things that annoy me most about people:
The long inhale followed by the drawn out half-whistled sigh.
People who constantly clear their throats with a hawking noise.
People who clear their noses witha series of inhale/exhale nasal explosions.
The usher in teh cinema who says..."thats row 7g"....and nothing else...(.im still lost thanks pal.)
The ushers pal at the sweet counter who does the long drawn out sigh and looks straight at you while your coke fills up.
With driving being in itself a social interaction....why can't people learn how to indicate their intentions?


Things Irish people do that nobody else i've met does....

The glance + nod as you pass each other on a street.
Minding a complete strangers pint if they have to make two trips.
Accepting 20euro as payment for petrol costing 20.04
Sharing taxi's
Start every phone conversation with "hello,how you doing?"
Ends every phone conversation with a good-luck or a see-ya-later.....regardless of it being intended or not!
Stop walking if a funeral passes by.

Jamesobrady

Just read the "eating" posts...dunno how i missed them....
For me the first time i meet someone for lunch or dinner is just hell on earth...especially if its a date....i sweat and can't relax, my hands shake, i drop my fork with food on it, my noses runs, lol......and im a picky eater so im totally screwed if i order something and there's mayonaisse on it cos scraping it off just ain't the solution.... and then im nervous that i'll look like a wierdo cos i don't want mayonaisse on something. Worst one was eating in an Italian restaurant with Italians....they all eating spaghetti like a knitting related artform and me not knowing how to do anything other then chop it up and eat. Talk about feeling like a caveman.

Worst eating related thing though is if you're in the cinema and the person near you is chewing gum loudly.....its really annoying but you can't really ask him to chew more quietly can you? :mad:

Raz

Jamesobrady wrote:

im a picky eater so im totally screwed if i order something and there's mayonaisse on it cos scraping it off just ain't the solution.... and then im nervous that i'll look like a wierdo cos i don't want mayonaisse on something. Worst one was eating in an Italian restaurant with Italians....they all eating spaghetti like a knitting related artform and me not knowing how to do anything other then chop it up and eat.

Eating is one thing I've never had a discomfort with. It's one of those things that everybody has to do so just get on with it. I've also gotten a lot better in teh last few years, holding knife & fork properly (don't scoop with the fork!), eating spaghetti properly (Twist the spaghetti onto your fork using the spoon held at the prongs of the fork) and using chopsticks (One is held stationary against your thumb by your ring & little finger the other moves around with your index & middle finger).

I was a picky eater myself but I'm growing out of it. The chefs make these dishes because they taste good all together. Don't eat each piece of food individually, eat some carrots, peas, potatoes, broccolli and ham topped off with some of the sauce in one bite. It's lovely how the flavours blend.
I was eating a bowl of fruit the other day (a new developement for me) and I was eating some mango. I didn't particularly like it on it's own but when I ate it with some passion frutt it was lovely.

Jamesobrady wrote:

Worst eating related thing though is if you're in the cinema and the person near you is chewing gum loudly.....its really annoying but you can't really ask him to chew more quietly can you? :mad:

Sure you can ..."Would you mind keeping your mouth closed while you chew?" They'll feel like they've just been reprimaned by their dad in public. They'll be hella embarrassed. Carefull it's not some scumbag who'll react badly though
:rolleyes:

I remember a particular situation in the UGC cinema (before it got it's swanky overhaul) and there was some little scumbag up the back who was throwing skittles or something small and hard like that. He hit myself and my gf a couple of times so I was going to get up and say something. My gf stopped me but a few minutes later a guy in front of me got up and went to them threatening that he'd get them kicked out. The throwing of skittles promptly stopped.

climaxer

Re the eating in public - it doesn't bother me at all - used to when I was younger but I think you just don't really care when you get older. That makes me sound really old - I'm 28 which is probably really old to some people here but one of the best things about getting older is you become a lot more comfortable in your own skin probably because its nice and stretched and there's more room!!

Sighing - I hate people who sigh especially when they are serving you in a shop.

Also taxi men who don't talk and stink and just grunt when you tell them where you're stop is.

One other thing that still leaves me baffled is you know when you are walking on a narrow path and someone is walking towards you and you know one of you is going to have to move. Are you the one who moves? I'd always move for an elderly person or person rolling a pram and guys would always move for me but when its two girls it can be funny to just keep walking so the other girl has to move for you!

AdMMM

alleepally wrote:

What about the public toilet urinal etiquette. Always keep at least one urinal's distance away, preferably two and ideally and opposite ends of the row of urinals.

I actually find it uncomfortable when someone comes in and starts urinating beside me.. but then starts to chat to me. It has to the most inappropriate place to start a conversation!

climaxer wrote:

One other thing that still leaves me baffled is you know when you are walking on a narrow path and someone is walking towards you and you know one of you is going to have to move. Are you the one who moves? I'd always move for an elderly person.... ....but when its two girls it can be funny to just keep walking so the other girl has to move for you!

In effect, you are bullying them off the pavement... Surely this pavement rage cant go on!

atlas

Why is it when the cinema is nearly empty and you have your feet on the seat in front that someone comes in and sits in front of you? Does that go against the personal space thing? On the subject of cinemas - could people who are sitting at the end of the row go around to get to the seats instead of making everyone else in the row get up after the film has started?

climaxer

Murderer - you better watch out seeing that you're a Déise man - we might cross paths some day!

AdMMM

and if we do, I won't budge for anyone... except elderly people and such!

koneko

|.Murderer.| wrote:

I actually find it uncomfortable when someone comes in and starts urinating beside me.. but then starts to chat to me. It has to the most inappropriate place to start a conversation!

Ugh, personal socialising faux-pas pet peeve. I hate when I bump into someone I know in the loo (especially in work). Talk to me when I'm walking in or washing my hands, but not when I'm on the toilet. It really bothers me when I'm doing my business in my cubicle and someone i know is still talking to me from their own cubicle.

Raz

atlas wrote:

Why is it when the cinema is nearly empty and you have your feet on the seat in front that someone comes in and sits in front of you? Does that go against the personal space thing?

This is usually because you've already gotten the best seats in the house and the one directly infront of you are the next best. Putting your feet up on the seat infront only serves to block your own view and give you a sore ass anyway.

atlas wrote:

On the subject of cinemas - could people who are sitting at the end of the row go around to get to the seats instead of making everyone else in the row get up after the film has started?

If they went down around the front and to the other side they would be walking infront of everyone in the cinema whereas walking through the row would disturb those in that row and behind reducing the amount of disturbed viewers.
Also people are too lazy to walk all the way around for a seat that's just over there!

Nala

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

The only disadvantage is that if its small everyone knows your business which can quickly drive you nuts. To the best of my knowledge Bermuda has one (General) Hospital and two mental hospitals. Dunno if this is true still.

You've just reminded me of something my old religion teacher told us once. He said that if you go anywhere in Ireland, 1 out of every 3 people you meet will know someone you know and because of this Ireland has a higher than average insanity level. I don't know if this is true, couldnt be arsed looking it up, I've just done a Statistics exam!!!

atlas

Raz wrote:

This is usually because you've already gotten the best seats in the house and the one directly infront of you are the next best.

and one row behind aren't?

Raz wrote:

Putting your feet up on the seat infront only serves to block your own view and give you a sore ass anyway.

try it its actually more comfy! Especially with longer legs.

seamus

Ugh, personal socialising faux-pas pet peeve. I hate when I bump into someone I know in the loo (especially in work). Talk to me when I'm walking in or washing my hands, but not when I'm on the toilet. It really bothers me when I'm doing my business in my cubicle and someone i know is still talking to me from their own cubicle.

Do women actually do that?
I'm very uncomfortable chatting to anyone in the toilet environment. If someone comes in, I'll just say "Howya" or "I'll talk to you outside." Standing there chatting just isn't right....
Guys will never chat to eachother between cubicles, unless they're good mates. And the last time I was in the toilet with a good mate, and both of us using a cubicle each was probably 6th class....

What happens in the male cubicles, stays in the male cubicles....

Jamesobrady wrote:

The glance + nod as you pass each other on a street.

Funny, I think you're the second person to say that, and I can't say I've seen it in Dublin regularly. The only time I've seen it happen is when two strangers have something in common, like when two bikers pass or two guys all dressed up like metalers.

Minding a complete strangers pint if they have to make two trips.

This is almost an unspoken sacrad ritual. If a man has just bought drinks, and is carrying as much as he can, he doesn't even need to say "Look after me pint willya?", it's just done. You just do not take, or let anyone take, the man's drink.

Sharing taxi's

I was waiting at a bus-stop once, when a guy and his girlfriend unshered me to join their taxi. Turns out he was from Glasgow, and that this was the done thing in Glasgow, he couldn't believe it wasn't done in Ireland. This is the only time I've ever experienced, or even heard of, strangers sharing taxis willingly.

Stop walking if a funeral passes by.

I'd say this varies person-to-person. If the funeral is just going to the cemetary, and not doing the procession, i'll ignore it. I've overtaken hearses before.

Vulture

When someone you know bumps into a friend of theirs that you dont know, your friend introduce you and leaves it at that. So both of them have a nice merry chat about something you have no intrest or knowledge of leaving you hanging around like a spare pr***

I believe it is the job of the person who knows you both to try and talk about something you can both relate to, to break the ice so to speak.

Dont know if i explained that well but that kinda stuff really annoys me

koneko

seamus wrote:

Do women actually do that?

Unfortunately, some do yeah

Seriously weird. I once even got a `what's wrong/why aren't you talking question' when I wasn't saying much. I said because I'm on the toilet :eek:

munkeehaven

re:a rare one

yeah that really can annoy me, i'm introduced to someone for the first time and then they ignore me in their conversation..or even worse is when i am left to deal with the unknown person by my good friend and i can't think of anything half decent to say. happened a while ago when i went to a gig and my friend brought this guy she knew.she fecked off to the toilet when we were having a bite to eat and i was left with this guy..i couldnt think of anything to say....so usually i start babbling stupid crap and get all embarrassed..and once i start talking i can't stop and end up talking like i have known them for years.silly me.

atlas

Vulture wrote:

I believe it is the job of the person who knows you both to try and talk about something you can both relate to, to break the ice so to speak.

Definitely, but I find it really difficult to quickly bring people up to speed on the conversation, especially if they haven't met before and you know each of them completely separately. One is your long lost cousin and the other is a work colleague. It really sucks standing there though.

munkeehaven

or worse when they are speaking different languages and you dont have a clue what they are saying. i have one or two friends that arent from ireland and speak a different language at home so whenever i go to thier houses im like ''shi-t are they talking about me?''..they smile and laugh and i just nod and humm and hah.

atlas

god, that is dire! You just stand there and end up either vowing never to go back or learn the language.

A friend of mine married a guy whose family was from China and she doesn't have Chinese so she feels really out of it when the clan call around. She is learning though but its really tough.