Does the Interconnector represent value for money; is a Central Dublin metro better?

Metrobest

I do not think the Interconnector is a solution to Dublin's transport problems. Nor do I think the Airport Metro is. The solution, in my opinion, is a comprehensive Metro that serves the Central Dublin area.

I envisage two lines: the CIRCLE line and the NORTH/SOUTH lines

Stops would be as follows:

Circle Line:
Drumondra - Connolly - Pearse - Stephen's Green - POD - Ranelagh - Harold's Cross - Christchruch - Heuston - Phibsborough - Drumondra.

North/South line:
Drumondra - Parnell Square - College Green - Stephen's Green - Ranelagh

The Circle line has the same principal as the Interconnector: giving a high quality connection between all Dublin's transport hubs. The North/South line, as a bonus, brings people to where they actually want to go in Central Dublin. Between them these two lines cover the CDA and not only this, they make Metro a reality for everyone in Dublin, not just the people who already live near a rail line. These Lines cover all the main arteries into Central Dublin, so people coming in from the suburbs can get off the bus at their Metro station and connect with speed to anywhere in Central Dublin, within minutes.

Q: Why is a Central Dublin Metro better than the Interconnector?
It has more stops, it covers major population centres around the canal ring, plus it is a dedicated line for high-quality urban transport and won't have to share trackspace with other modes as it is mostly underground.

Q: Will it cost a fortune?
Absolutely not, if costs are managed correctly, modern tunneling technology used and international experts drafted in. A North/South line is being tunneled through Amsterdam (where I live) at present. The 9.5 km line passes under a harbour and the 17th century historical centre of Amsterdam. The cost? 1.5bn euros. The Circle line can utilise the Park Tunnel and existing line from Heuston to Drumondra, saving tunneling costs. From there it loops underground all the way back to Heutston.

Q: Isn't it disruptive, tunneling through central Dublin?
It's not. The stations are dug deep under the ground, the suface construction area of each station is the size of a tennis court. I live next to the site of one of the Amsterdam stations, and you would never know a metro was being dug, so non-disruptive is the construction process under the ground. So it won't be anything like the LUAS.

Q: Don't we need an Airport Metro?
No. Under my plan Drumcondra would become a major interchange point with the Maynooth line, Circle Line and North/South line all stopping here. From this point passengers take an express bus to the airport, a short journey indeed. Dublin airport is proximate enough to the city centre not to justify building a Metro. Good roads lead into it and tourists are happy with the Aircoach and 747. To build it would be a vanity project of empirical proportions.

dmeehan

would you have a map/diagram, its kinda hard to visualize the route/s

Hecate

Looks like a nice idea, and it would certainly suit me because I live along the proposed route It would have to be DARTs running on it though, rather than yet another incompatible rail system. I would also suggest electrifying a few more lines to bring the DART to places like Kildare and Maynooth. This would give them frequent transit into the city centre circle line zone, most of the traffic comes from those areas anyway, there would be no point in building this circle line proposal unless the infrastructure (ie: existing lines) that feeds into it are also upgraded to the same standard.

As you say a large element of it is actually the Interconnector proposal, and this is where the main problem lies. Money is tight, and you would have to decide which part of the circle line to build first, personally I would go for the Interconnector "portion" initially, followed by electrification to kildare/maynooth, then the rest of the circle line, and then mabye a DART extension to the Airport - that is last because this obession with having a rail link to the Airport is very very misguided imho.

sliabh

Hecate wrote:

and then mabye a DART extension to the Airport - that is last because this obession with having a rail link to the Airport is very very misguided imho.

I would diasgree. We are the only European capital withouy a rail link from the airport to the capital. And as a regular user of the airport anything that gets me away from over priced taxis or the limited aircoach is good by me. To get the best value for money the service should also be a commuter one into the city.

But that leads back to the various discussions on the best approach to achieve it that keep us all typing late into the night

Hecate

I would diasgree. We are the only European capital withouy a rail link from the airport to the capital.

If you're talking about a metro, a link to the airport is probably the worst thing you can build first if you want to remove cars from the road which is after all the reason for building the thing in the first place.

Most european cities did not start their metro systems with a link to the airport. In fact the tube in London did'nt reach Heathrow until 1986 or somthing, and by then it was one of the largest airports in the world.

sliabh

Hecate wrote:

If you're talking about a metro, a link to the airport is probably the worst thing you can build first if you want to remove cars from the road which is after all the reason for building the thing in the first place.

I don't think building rail links is just about removing cars from the. I think it's the most efficient way of moving large numbers of people to and from the airport.

aliveandkicking

Metrobest's circle line proposal:
Drumondra - Connolly - Pearse - Stephen's Green - POD - Ranelagh - Harold's Cross - Christchruch - Heuston - Phibsborough - Drumondra.



Irish Rail's interconnector / park tunnel default circle line:
Drumcondra - Spencer Dock - Pearse - Stephen's Green - High St (Christchurch) - Heuston - Cabra - Drumcondra.

Very similar arent they? The only places missing are POD and Ranelagh which are already served by Luas and Harolds X which hasn't exactly got a high population density or choked with traffic congestion. Metrobest's circle line proposal also doesn't integrate with the existing rail network and would be unable to offer the Dart from Kildare, Maynooth or the airport which Irish Rail's greater Dublin rail plan will.

Metrobest's north/south line proposal:
Drumondra - Parnell Square - College Green - Stephen's Green - Ranelagh

RPA's current airport metro proposal:
(hopefully Swords) - Airport - Ballymun - DCU - Mater (Phibsboro) - O'Connell St (parnell Square) - Tara St - Stephen's Green.

Again both proposals have similar routing except the metro will run to the airport not stop in Drumcondra.

So basically Metrobest's two proposals are modified versions of the current interconnector/metro proposals. In my opinion they have been modified badly and the current Irish Rail / RPA proposals offer more benefits than Metrobest's idea.

John R

Dublin does not need an inner "metro" it does not have a huge centre that needs a rail circut. It does badly need city - suburb commuter lines and better links/services for the current ones.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

POD

Is now Crawdaddy I believe. Are you afraid to use "Harcourt Street"?

thejollyrodger

Im in favour of the orbital metro:) dublin needs it

sliabh

People seem to have loads of different views on what Dublin needs based on their perceptions of what the main problems are. Maybe a very scientific, totally representative and once-and-for-all-argument-settling poll is needed here.

Something along the lines of:
"What is the greatest need for the next large Dublin transport infrastructure project to address:

a) Connect airport to city centre?
b) connect main train stations together?
c) Link outer suburbs in an orbital fashion?
d) Link outer suburbs by going through the city centre?
e) Orbit the city centre?
f) one of the others I have missed as I am writing this in a hurry!

The trick is to keep the options neutral so they don't suggest one of the solutions we all are so fond of plugging

dmeehan

I vote for;
d) Link outer suburbs by going through the city centre

Start the train outside the city, run through ceter and terminate on other side of city, kinda like dart Bray-Howth etc.

Metrobest

''Metrobest's circle line proposal also doesn't integrate with the existing rail network and would be unable to offer the Dart from Kildare, Maynooth or the airport which Irish Rail's greater Dublin rail plan will.''

The Circle and North/South line creates new infrastructure that will relieve pressure on all existing services, as well as bring rail to hundreds of thousands of Dubliners.

In other European cities it is common for main-line trains to terminate in a central hub, from which passengers change onto a Metro that takes them to their final destination in the central area. Let's do this too.

In Dublin's case, we have Heuston for west-bound trains, Drumcondra for the Maynooth line, Connolly for Northside DARTs and the enterprise, and Pearse for southside DARTs and arrows. The Metro lines are dedicated exclusively to metros running at frequncies of 4 mins peak time (with metro this is feasible). When trains are this frequent, changing lines becomes a doddle. When I lived in Dublin I used to take the Maynooth trains frequently: I always remember the hassle of getting a DART to Connolly and changing platfroms to the Maynooth train. Very stressful - connections never went smoothly. But when you have a Metro every four minutes, it's no biggie if you miss a train.

My metro line would cover Dublin's central transport and 'people' hubs comprehensively. A passenger travelling from Sandymount on the DART could get off at Pearse, change trains and end up in Stephen's Green, or Rathmines, or Phibsboro, or College Green. And a passenger coming in from Clonsilla on the Maynooth line could change in Drumcondra for the North/South line and be in College Green or Ranelagh with high speed. The possibilities are endless.

What the metro will also do is revitalise Dublin's central area. For their sheer handiness, areas like Harold's Cross and Phibsboro will develop into bustling hives of activity and culture (Look at what the LUAS is doing for Dundrum.) .Not only does the metro make getting around central Dublin a doddle, it breathes new life into it. A metro will arrest the decline in population of central Dublin and encourage development of high-density housing around its stations.

The Interconnector cannot do this. The Interconnector's role is primarily to shore up existing infrastructure, make it easier for people in Kildare to reach the CBD of Dublin. To build such a project suggests a blinkered vision of the Dublin we want. The interconnector will lead to further and further sprawl. Becuase if people in Rathfarnham start to notice that their bus takes longer to get from Harold's Cross to College Green than the Kildare train takes to get to Connolly, people will desert the suburbs and up sticks in the provinces, gobbling up the countryside. That is what the Interconnecter spawns: a sprawling, LA-style city.

Of course, I should add, it would be wrong forget about the Kildare and Maynooth lines. Electrify them. But to upgrade them to 'metro' standard is a fallacy. The thought of a 'metro' zipping through the green countryside of county Kildare while the rest of metropolitan and inner-suburban Dublin is left sitting in a smoggy traffic jam, is not one I, for one, want to countenance.

murphaph

metro this and metro that.................

We have a metro, it is called DART.

Expand it (with the interconnector) and watch Rail based transport blossom around it. We can reduce the thousands of cars spilling into Dublin on the M1, N3, N4, N7 and N11 and make life better for the citizens of Dublin centre (and surrounding areas-I was tuck in traffic on the Blanch bypass this morning even though I'm not actually driving anywhere near the city centre) by reducing congestion there. I firmly believe that the interconnector coupled with three new DART lines, definitely reopening Clonsilla out to Navan, the airport via Howth Jcn and/or Glasnevin Jcn and a southside expansion (a lot of tunneling required but we need to fill the gap between Luas red and green lines). This would form the basis of a solid system we could expand as each generation passes. None of it will be done overnight and it is all very expensive but we need to start by fixing up our existing infrastructure.

All main lines into Dublin are at most double track (excluding the short 3 track section out of Heuston) and this needs to be rectified by widenning to at least 4 tracks to separate inter city/outer suburban from locally stopping trains. This is something the rest of Europe did a long time ago and before we get any notion of starting a DART expansion in new tunnels we must tap the massive capacity on our existing lines.

I am not a fan of another gauge being introduced either-5'3" DART is the only way to go for sound economic reasons-servicing, depot requirements, staff training, and the vast knowledge base (yes!) that IE engineering have out at Inchicore and Fairview. We don't need to reinvent the wheel but it is missing a few spokes.

Metrobest

Is this the same Philip who posts on Platfrom 11? If so you should declare your interest.

If Iarnroad Eireann decided to market the DART as 'metro' they would be hauled before the ASA. Dart is an electric train that runs over-ground. Its closest relative is the German S-Bahn. The DART shares track-space with intercities and diesal locomotives - therefore it is not a 'metro' line. What'll you be telling us next - the Arrow is a space shuttle?

Let's examine the facts: DART serves outer-suburbs only.
Metro seves inner Metropolitan areas. The dictionary says metro is an 'electric underground train'. Does DART fit that definition? Of course not. Therefore DART is not metro.

As far as your point about about the Maynooth line relieving congestion around Blanchardstown: that's impossible - the line doesn't even really go near Blanch. Coolmine, Castleknock and Clonsilla already capture their catchment areas pretty well: you can't build a carpark in Castleknock, there is no more room in Coolmine and Clonsilla is tricky. If you think every car in Dublin 15 is going to leap onto a train once the interconnector gets built, you're deluding yourself.

The fact is, most of Dublin 15 is low-density suburban housing estates, the worst possible place in which to have a metro. The area is sprinkled with plenty of football pitches and protected green space to boot. Because of the way it developed, the only way to relieve congestion is to improve the roads. Metro in outer suburban areas doesn't work: it only benefits those in its immediate catchment area:

sliabh

There is a bit of a question though as to whether CIE are also part of the problem or part of the solution? If we had all of these great new lines would they be the best people to run them?

Metrobest

sliabh, I think the metro would have to be given to Connex or another quality private operator.

In every aspect of its performance: from timetables to punctuality, customer service to originality, IE has shown utter contempt for the taxpayers who shovel cash into its ailing operations. This lazy CIE culture of ''ah sure it works all right, aren't we gettin there anyway somehow'' will always be with us. But luckily CIE can be frozen out of any new development in Irish rail travel. which can only be a good thing for the average customer.

sceptre

Metrobest wrote:

The dictionary says metro is an 'electric underground train'. Does DART fit that definition? Of course not. Therefore DART is not metro.

Quite a bit of the London (just to pick one city) Underground would fail your definition as well (including most of the Metropolitan line, oddly enough, whence we got the term "Metro"). It's a broad definition, not a stick.

Metrobest

When most people think of metro, the Paris Metro, the tube or the German U-Bahn springs to mind. Never DART. Probably because DART is entirely overground, serves places like Greystones, Co. Wicklow, and shares track space with diesal trains.

Only a very special few people think a DART wending along the hills of Dalkey with a diesal locomative stuck behind it is the same as an underground Metro whizzing through central Paris, London, or Berlin.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

Is this the same Philip who posts on Platfrom 11? If so you should declare your interest.

--One and the same and I'm not declaring any such thing-posting on two boards is hardly a conflict of interests my good man. I don't represent P11!

Dart is an electric train that runs over-ground. Its closest relative is the German S-Bahn

--It only runs overground because the interconnector tunnel has not yet been constructed, IE specified the entire fleet to be capable of running underground or of running underground with minor modifications in the case of the original 1984 Linke Hoffman Busch units (now that's foresight but I'm sure the RPA would do the same-oh wait, aren't they the ones who ordered 30m trams for Tallaght?).

The DART shares track-space with intercities and diesal locomotives - therefore it is not a 'metro' line. What'll you be telling us next - the Arrow is a space shuttle?

--Again IE propose with their €3.4bn interconnector project to quad track the Kildare route (already going ahead in any case) and quad track the Northern Line to north of Howth Junction. This will separate the Inter City services from the DART and is not really necessary on the Rosslare/Sligo Line in the short term due to the infrequency of Inter City services to these towns. This is something that should have been done a long time ago but Irelands railways have been chronically starved of funding since the British left. Your childish space shuttle remark doesn't deserve a reply.

Let's examine the facts: DART serves outer-suburbs only.

--Like Raheny, Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock, Landsdowne Road and if the interconnector proposal adopted Cabra, Drumcondra, Phibsborough, Stephens Green, Christchurch, Heuston, Inchicore, Ballyfermot and the high density housing popping up all along the strained Maynooth Line at least as far as Clonsilla.

Metro seves inner Metropolitan areas

--Like London Heathrow etc etc etc

The dictionary says metro is an 'electric underground train'. Does DART fit that definition? Of course not. Therefore DART is not metro.

--Most sensible people can recognise that overground and/or underground (as the DART would run with the interconnector built), the term 'metro' refers to a QoS or Quality of Service, i.e., the frequency of operation. The interconnector project allows 'metro' frequency running of electric trains (underground) through the city centre.

As far as your point about about the Maynooth line relieving congestion around Blanchardstown: that's impossible - the line doesn't even really go near Blanch. Coolmine, Castleknock and Clonsilla already capture their catchment areas pretty well: you can't build a carpark in Castleknock, there is no more room in Coolmine and Clonsilla is tricky. If you think every car in Dublin 15 is going to leap onto a train once the interconnector gets built, you're deluding yourself.

--Where to start! Do you know anything about the area? Castleknock station is less than 5 minutes walk from the middle of Blanchardstown village. Coolmine could easily develop park and ride with a 3 tier multi storey-they have the land there. In any case I don't believe P&R would be appropriate for these stations as a DART every 5 minutes or whatever (IE say all 16 trains per hour over the loop line will be Maynooth-Bray trains only and that would actually be a train every 3.5 minutes) would result in a complete redeployment of Dublin Bus' fleet to act as shuttles between the areas beyond walking distance (say Corduff etc) of the line and the stations themselves. The 39 would cease to exist in its current role people-it would be very radical. I believe you totally ignored the point about Navan because you know it will take those people in Navan and Dunboyne out of their cars and into town swiftly and easilly.

The fact is, most of Dublin 15 is low-density suburban housing estates

--True. this is changing rapidly my friend. All the development along the line at Coolmine and Pelletstown is high density. This is beacause they want to live within easy reach of the city and are prepared to make the transition to smaller living space.

The area is sprinkled with plenty of football pitches and protected green space to boot

--Not where I live it's not and the population density is as high as places like Harolds Cross too.

Because of the way it developed, the only way to relieve congestion is to improve the roads

--Do you work for the NRA or what? That's a ridiculous statement.

Metro in outer suburban areas doesn't work: it only benefits those in its immediate catchment area

--Clonsilla et al are not Outer Suburban. They are Suburban. High frequency rail services which deliver people right to the city centre and beyond do not just benefit people in the immediate catchment area-see my point about buses forming an integral part in any rail plan. Buses will bring mass transit to those people beyond walking distance of their nearest train station.

Andrew Duffy

A large part of Paris' Metro shares track with the RER - a system of lines connecting pairs of suburbs through the city centre. A significant part of London's Underground (the majority of which is overground, by the way) shares track with Network Rail.

However, most importantly - Dublin has a population of under 1.5 million people. London and Paris have populations touching 10 million and were both once capitals of large empires. To build a fully segregated Metro rail system in Dublin to the same track-length : population density as either city would cost in the high tens, if not hundreds of billions and take at least twenty years.

It's all very well drawing lines on a map and saying "Metro go here - metro go there". This is what the DTO did. On the other hand, CIE spent a lot of time and money and drew upon a huge body of expertise in designing two complementary transport systems for Dublin - the Dublin Rail Plan, involving the Interconnector, two spurs, new stations and extensive electrification and widening, and Luas, an integrated tram system. Since about five-sixths of the infrastructure required for the Dublin Rail plan exists, and about one-half of Luas exists, and the remainder of both are at advanced stages of design, what do you think is the best option?

thejollyrodger

e) Orbit the city centre?

Thats the best option becuase after they build the line to the airport the next thing they need to do is expand the rail network city wide. LUAS cant carry everyone!! The interconnetor is being sold by certain people but lets remember that its primarly for those intercity carriages.

Metrobest

ANDREW ''A large part of Paris' Metro shares track with the RER - a system of lines connecting pairs of suburbs through the city centre.''

I won't quibble with that. However, you're kind of proving your own point. The RER is not very frequent, nor does it connect with most of the metro network in Paris. Are you seriously telling us Paris could survive with the RER system alone? Yet that is the fate to which you want to consign Dublin. Faulty logic.

ANDREW ''To build a fully segregated Metro rail system in Dublin to the same track-length : population density as either city would cost in the high tens, if not hundreds of billions and take at least twenty years.''

Of course Dublin does not need a network on the scale of Paris or London. Different populations, different needs. A more relevent comparison is Dublin-Amsterdam. The CBD of both cities is similar in size, but look who's got the better transport. Amsterdam has 4 (soon to be 5!) metro lines, 24 tram lines, loads of buses and serveral ways to traverse the city via mainline rail. What does Dublin have? Two poxy LUAS lines, random connections to Kildare and Maynooth. It's not good enough.

http://www.ivv.amsterdam.nl/nzlijn/english/index.php?PHPSESSID=f2de42dfda497f037e5886bdeda1cc50
Check this link out. This is Amsterdam's newest metro project. It's an entirely new metro line, running right under the historical centre. The 9.5km line is costing 1.5bn euros. It has more stations than my North/South line would have, and tunneling costs in Dublin should not be any more expensive because the park tunnel can be used. If Amsterdam can do it, if Athens can do it, if even poor Turkey can do it, why can't Dublin? We cannot cry poverty any more, having one of the highest GDPs in the EU.

And it won't take 20 years. Work started on the Amsterdam line last year: the whole thing will be up and running in 2009. If the politicians got their finger out, Dublin could be doing the exact same thing. No more excuses. Time for action.

murphaph

thejollyrodger wrote:

The interconnetor is being sold by certain people but lets remember that its primarly for those intercity carriages

--eh, no it's not. It's primarily for commuters from Kildare, Newbridge, Naas, Celbridge & Hazelhatch, Lucan (Adamstown), Ballyfermot, Inchicore, Kilmainham ---5 underground city centre stops--- East Wall, Raheny and out to Malahide (possibly further) on the other side. It also MUST be realised that the interconnector frees up the loop line completely for up to 16 trains per hour between Maynooth and Bray (this is a metro level service but I'd be perfectly happy with 6-10 trains per hour)

It is true that at some point in the future direct Cork-Belfast services could be run but that's not the main reason for doing it-just another side benefit the interconnector provides (as well as your orbital circle line).

Metrobest, have you no retort to my debate points or are you just ignoring them because they are awkward facts that don't fit in with your interconnector bashing? I'm all for healthy debate about our under-funded transport system. Making incorrect statements and then not recognising that they were incorrect when you are informed of that makes your position look very shaky indeed.

Metrobest

PHILIP ''I don't represent P11!''

I beg to differ. P11 has cowardly banned me from its forum for ''slagging off P11'' (translated: for not agreeing with the P11 interconnector) so I think it's a bit rich for P11 members to come on this forum as 'ordinary joes' when they are really people with agendas - the P11 agenda.

PHILIP ''quad track the Northern Line to north of Howth Junction''

We had this debate on the P11 forum. Tricky that there are so many, em, houses and things in the way.

PHILIP ''Inchicore, Ballyfermot and the high density housing popping up all along the strained Maynooth Line at least as far as Clonsilla.''

Inchicore and Ballyfermot aren't included in the Interconnector plan. Let's stick to what's being proposed. As for high-density housing, do you call four-bedroomed semi-Ds with front and back gardens 'high-density'? Because precious little else is being constructed along the Maynooth line, and precious little else exists already on it. Irish people don't like living in high-density, high-rise blocks. Ballymun is prime example of this. And look what being done there now. Unfortunately, the average Irish person wants a car and a back garden. The interconnector won't change this mentality.

PHILIP ''Where to start! Castleknock station is less than 5 minutes walk from the middle of Blanchardstown village. Coolmine could easily develop park and ride with a 3 tier multi storey-they have the land there. DART would actually be a train every 3.5 minutes. (It)would result in a complete redeployment of Dublin Bus' fleet to act as shuttles between the areas beyond walking distance. ''

Where to start is right! Castleknock station sits under a hump-back bridge on a road that can barely handle the 38 double deckers, never mind what you are proposing. In the mornings traffic chokes that road with people driving to the village and the mammies on the school run. Whatever is done with the Maynooth line, this situation can't change. As for the station being near Blanch village, I have yet to see a single person get off a 39 and walk to Castleknock station. I do not sure your optimisim that people will want to sit on the traffic-choked 39s to get to the station.

Building a mulistorey carpark in Coolmine would be insane. That road is stuffed with traffic already; when the gates close over the rail-crossing it gets worse. Just imagine if you had a people driving into the multi-storey. And anyway, who'd want to endure the stress of navigating a multi-storey car park in the mornings, and then the walk from car to ticket-turnstile - over footbridge and onto platfrom would take 6 minutes. And what an eyesore a mulitstorey would be in this quiet area. The residents would shoot you if you tried to build it.

PHILIP ''Do you work for the NRA or what? That's a ridiculous statement''

No. As far as I'm aware, the NRA haven't set up a Dutch branch yet. I don't see why you think it's 'ridiculous' that I think the roads need improvement. No matter how great the rail system is, there is huge percentage of people who will still sit in their cars every morning. Fact of life. Some people want their own space and are selfish.

If my metro gets built, it would remove cars and most of the buses from the city centre area. The suburbs, I'm afraid to say, will always have traffic. And how you envisage the interconnector would remove traffic from Blanchardtown is beyond me. Nothing can solve that expect widening roads. Three lanes on the motorways is the only solution.

PHILIP ''I believe you totally ignored the point about Navan because you know it will take those people in Navan and Dunboyne out of their cars and into town swiftly and easilly.''

Neither Navan or Dunboyne has a high-density population. It sounds very nice to say ''rebuild the Navan rail-line'' but let's get our priorites straight. People moved to Navan and Dunboyne knowing that these places can't sustain the levels of traffic and development. I blame the government for allowing development to take place there. A rail-line is not viable here: better roads are the solution.

Metrobest

PHILIP ''DART would actually be a train every 3.5 minutes''

I can't believe you can say that. 16 trains means 16 trains divided between Bray/Maynooth, Bray/howth and Bray/Malahide. It's a three-way split.

A train every 10 minutes is the best Maynooth can hope for if the interconnector gets the nod, so it won't actually deliver that much extra peak capacity.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''I don't represent P11!''

I beg to differ. P11 has cowardly banned me from its forum for ''slagging off P11'' (translated: for not agreeing with the P11 interconnector) so I think it's a bit rich for P11 members to come on this forum as 'ordinary joes' when they are really people with agendas - the P11 agenda.

--Don't tell me who I speak for. I speak for myself, Philip Murphy. P11 if you must know did NOT support the interconnector when IE initially proposed it. I deeply disagreed with them then. They have seen sense in my opinion and realise the visionary proposal that the interconnector actually is. I didn't see any ban on the P11 boards pertaining to you either. Maybe they did though-I wouldn't know as I'm not P11.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''quad track the Northern Line to north of Howth Junction''

We had this debate on the P11 forum. Tricky that there are so many, em, houses and things in the way.

--There are ome buildings in the way. Buildings get in the way of motorways and compulsory purchase orders are issued and they are demolished. For the greater good I'm afraid the same has to apply to railways.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Inchicore, Ballyfermot and the high density housing popping up all along the strained Maynooth Line at least as far as Clonsilla.''

Inchicore and Ballyfermot aren't included in the Interconnector plan. Let's stick to what's being proposed

--The Kildare line passes through Cherry Orchard (read Ballyfermot) station and at Inchicore IE own a large land bank making the construction of a commuter station a piece of p*ss.

Metrobest wrote:

As for high-density housing, do you call four-bedroomed semi-Ds with front and back gardens 'high-density'? Because precious little else is being constructed along the Maynooth line, and precious little else exists already on it

--like this huge development beside another huge development beside the damn railway that hasn't the capacity to carry them, you mean
http://www.rathborne.info/siteplan/rivervale/index.html

Note that 4 out of the 5 developments on this page by Castlethorn in D15 are medium/high density
http://www.castlethorn.ie/recentdevelopments/default.asp

Metrobest wrote:

Irish people don't like living in high-density, high-rise blocks

--High density doesn't have to mean high rise. Low rise units can deliver superb density and far far higher than the densities you want to serve in Harolds X.

Metrobest wrote:

Ballymun is prime example of this. And look what being done there now. Unfortunately, the average Irish person wants a car and a back garden. The interconnector won't change this mentality.

--Ballymun failed for many reasons not least of which was chronic umemployment and drug related crime. Please don't make out like this is the epitomy of high density housing in Ireland.

Metrobest wrote:

Where to start is right! Castleknock station sits under a hump-back bridge on a road that can barely handle the 38 double deckers, never mind what you are proposing. In the mornings traffic chokes that road with people driving to the village and the mammies on the school run

--You're 'argument' deteriorates rapidly. Being a hump back bridge doesn't reduce a bridges capacity, it's got 2 lanes, one for each direction!
I am proposing that buses run locally at high frequency delivering people to their nearest train station before changing to a mass transit system that gets them into town in minutes. Those self same buses can just as easily transport those kids to the schools en-route.

Metrobest wrote:

As for the station being near Blanch village, I have yet to see a single person get off a 39 and walk to Castleknock station. I do not sure your optimisim that people will want to sit on the traffic-choked 39s to get to the station.

--Who would get on a bus to a station where trains run every hour or half hour at best. If it were a high frequency service this would change. The 39 would be complimented by lots of other routes as they would be shorter routes than the current 'an lar' ones, the current routes buses can be divvied up to form many new routes without spending any extra cash on vehicles.

Metrobest wrote:

Building a mulistorey carpark in Coolmine would be insane
. That road is stuffed with traffic already; when the gates close over the rail-crossing it gets worse. Just imagine if you had a people driving into the multi-storey.

--That road is clogged. All the roads in and around Dublin are clogged. Do you propose not persuading people to move to rail based transport because the traffic is so bad?!

Metrobest wrote:

And anyway, who'd want to endure the stress of navigating a multi-storey car park in the mornings, and then the walk from car to ticket-turnstile - over footbridge and onto platfrom would take 6 minutes

--No comment on this, people can decide for themselves if you're serious about this nonsense.

Metrobest wrote:

And what an eyesore a mulitstorey would be in this quiet area. The residents would shoot you if you tried to build it.

--The residents of the 3 storey apartment block next door? their homes set the roofline precedent. The multi-storey would not overlook anybodys property.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Do you work for the NRA or what? That's a ridiculous statement''

No. As far as I'm aware, the NRA haven't set up a Dutch branch yet. I don't see why you think it's 'ridiculous' that I think the roads need improvement. No matter how great the rail system is, there is huge percentage of people who will still sit in their cars every morning. Fact of life. Some people want their own space and are selfish.

--So we pander to the roads lobby to keep them happy instead of investing in our existing rail infrastructure and trying to tempt people out of the traffic jams.

Metrobest wrote:

If my metro gets built, it would remove cars and most of the buses from the city centre area

--No it won't. It'll allow people wh are lucky enough to afford to live in Dublin city to get from A to B quickly and they'll need to because the roads will be completely clogged with cars from suburban and outer suburban Dublin.

Metrobest wrote:

The suburbs, I'm afraid to say, will always have traffic. And how you envisage the interconnector would remove traffic from Blanchardtown is beyond me

--I told you already, the N3 through blanchardstown is clogged with cars from Navan, the fastest growing town in Ireland. The interconnector proposal allows the Clonsilla-Navan line to be reopened and to carry these people right to the city centre with no changes. Clearly the massive capacity on the line would attract Blanchardstown locals to rail too, as I pointed out twice now.

Metrobest wrote:

Nothing can solve that expect widening roads. Three lanes on the motorways is the only solution.

--Yo have no idea of the potential suburban commuter rail posesses do you. Once again, I ask, are you an NRA plant or what?!

Metrobest wrote:

Neither Navan or Dunboyne has a high-density population

--Navan has 50,000 people mate and both Navan and Dunboyne would be excellent candidates for P&R for the surrounding areas.

Metrobest wrote:

It sounds very nice to say ''rebuild the Navan rail-line'' but let's get our priorites straight. People moved to Navan and Dunboyne knowing that these places can't sustain the levels of traffic and development. I blame the government for allowing development to take place there. A rail-line is not viable here: better roads are the solution

--Blaming the government is all well and good but peoples lives are affected here. People move to Navan because they can't afford to live in Dublin. A rail line is not viable here? Strange the Strategic Rail Review begs to differ with you, then again they must be wrong-you must be right, right?

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''DART would actually be a train every 3.5 minutes''

I can't believe you can say that. 16 trains means 16 trains divided between Bray/Maynooth, Bray/howth and Bray/Malahide. It's a three-way split.

A train every 10 minutes is the best Maynooth can hope for if the interconnector gets the nod, so it won't actually deliver that much extra peak capacity.

--You are either deliberately misinforming the readers of this board or are ignorant of the facts behind the interconnector proposal. The proposed DART lines would be [1] Kildare-Malahide, [2] Maynooth-Bray, [3] Heuston-Howth

ALL THE MALAHIDE AND HOWTH TRAINS WILL TRAVEL UNDERGROUND THROUGH THE CITY CENTRE TOWARDS HEUSTON/KILDARE. ALL THE MAYNOOTH TRAINS WILL TRAVEL UNIMPEEDED TO BRAY CREATING AN X WITH THE CENTRE AT PEARSE. THE CURRENT SYSTEM WILL CHANGE DRAMATICALLY WITH THE OPENING OF THE INTERCONNECTOR. NO HOWTH/MALAHIDE TRAINS WILL TRAVEL THE LOOP LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! UNDERSTAND METROBEST???

Sorry for shouting folks but he just doesn't understand what the interconnector even is. He displays his ignorance with every new post!

sceptre

Metrobest wrote:

When most people think of metro, the Paris Metro, the tube or the German U-Bahn springs to mind. Never DART. Probably because DART is entirely overground, serves places like Greystones, Co. Wicklow, and shares track space with diesal trains.

Only a very special few people think a DART wending along the hills of Dalkey with a diesal locomative stuck behind it is the same as an underground Metro whizzing through central Paris, London, or Berlin.

I'm sure you're broadly correct on both. However this is an entirely different reason to the "what Mr Webster may say a Metro is" reason, which as I stated is rather a poor reason on its own (as it was above) to say something falls into a particular category or not. I tend to think of a Metro as generally operating underground as well but it's rather a poor dictionary definition given that there are plenty of metro lines that don't necessarily do so for all or part of their journey.

GerardKeating

Metrobest wrote:

Let's examine the facts: DART serves outer-suburbs only.

Depends on your defination of "Outer-Suburbs",

Sandymount, Landsdowne, Pearse, Tara, Connolly are hardly outer suburbs.

With Iarnród Éireann "Interconnector" the DART will also serve Heuston, High Street and Stephens Green.

Metrobest wrote:

Metro seves inner Metropolitan areas.

The Metro is propose to service the Airport, the Airport is more an "outer-suburb" than an Inner Metropoloptian.

Metrobest wrote:

The dictionary says metro is an 'electric underground train'. Does DART fit that definition? Of course not. Therefore DART is not metro.

Many parts of the London Underground is actualy above ground. Are you claiming that the the tube is not a Metro system because of this.

Many Metro sytem are above ground and different dictionaries will give different definations of the word.

"Metro" is just a word, what is important is the service provided and the area covered. So what if one proposal fits a dictionary defination of "Metro"

Dublin now has two different standards of Rail based transport.

DART/Arrow on irish Standard track
and Luas on European Standard track.

Do we really need a third rail format ???

GerardKeating

Hecate wrote:

Most european cities did not start their metro systems with a link to the airport. In fact the tube in London did'nt reach Heathrow until 1986 or somthing, and by then it was one of the largest airports in the world.

Most European cities started building Metro/U-Bahn/Tube systems BEFORE airports were a major form of transport.

In fact, London started before the first flight of an airplane....

Metrobest

PHILIP ''I didn't see any ban on the P11 boards pertaining to you either''

When I type in the username and password it comes up: 'sorry, you have been banned for slagging off platfrom 11.' That is the level of these people: when you don't agree with them they ban you. Whatever happened to free speech, eh?

PHILIP '' Buildings get in the way of motorways and compulsory purchase orders are issued and they are demolished. For the greater good I'm afraid the same has to apply to railways.''

I agree with you, but in this situation I can't see it happening.

PHILIP ''Note that 4 out of the 5 developments on this page by Castlethorn in D15 are medium/high density''

I checked your link. Scroll down to the bottom and what's this? Oh, no less than five developments of low density houses with driveways and gardens. That's not going to deliver enough passengers to make a mero viable here.

PHILIP ''far higher than the densities you want to serve in Harolds X.''

With Harold's Cross, though, I see real potential for bus/metro interchange. That's why on the circle line I've placed stations at all the main entry points into central Dublin. I think your plan of the 39s all going to Castleknock station is nice in theory, but in practice people have an aversion to taking a 'roundabout' route into the CDR.. they will rather just take a bus directly into the centre.

PHILIP ''Being a hump back bridge doesn't reduce a bridges capacity, it's got 2 lanes, one for each direction!''

Two very small lanes, Philip. Have you every tried to cycle a bike along this road in heavy traffic? Dangerous! I shudder to think of the danger to all road users if this area was being used as a transport interchange. It's just not suitable for such a purpose.

PHILIP ''Do you propose not persuading people to move to rail based transport because the traffic is so bad?!''

Course not. I think everyone should have the option of high-quality metro transport, every day. Precisely this is what the Circle Line and North/South line would bring. Whether from Newbridge or the Navan Road, Harold's Cross or Heuston, everyone can use a Central Dublin Metro. In the case of the 3.4bn interconnector, only those on living beside a rail line get the benefit, everyone else is left empty-handed.

PHILIP ''So we pander to the roads lobby to keep them happy instead of investing in our existing rail infrastructure and trying to tempt people out of the traffic jams.''

No, but you have to strike a balance between sensible public transport provisons, and attractive road conditions for those who can't - or won't - use it. Amsterdam has fantastic public transport, and still there are traffic jams on the Ring Road. Traffic volumes in Dublin are not as insane as we are often told; rather, the road-space is just too inadequate for the volume of housing. This situation has also arisen from the crap public transport options available. And if you look at where the Interconnector lines run, 70 percent of Dublin city would be still nowhere near a rail line.

''I told you already, the N3 through blanchardstown is clogged with cars from Navan.''

Many of which are bound for the giant shopping centre and office park. The problem is we built all these industrial parks around the M50; only reachable by car. Neither Interconnector nor Metro can square this circle - the only thing to do is make the roads a little better for people who HAVE to use them. The vision of everyone happily zipping around on train lines is nice in theory, but it will never happen.

PHILIP ''Navan has 50,000 people''

Why don't you tot up how many people live in Walkinstown, Crumlin, Harold's Cross, Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham, Ballinteer, Swords, etc etc etc. I think you'll have a few hundred thousand people all with one thing in common: they are nowhere near a rail station. Why would you like trains to zip along the green fields of Co. Meath to serve provincial Navan, but a Dubliner living in Walkinstown has to sit for an hour on a Dublin Bus. That can't be fair.

PHILIP ''So we pander to the roads lobby to keep them happy instead of investing in our existing rail infrastructure and trying to tempt people out of the traffic jams.''

The interconnector can't solve the traffic problems that bedevil all the main arterie routes in and out of Dublin. Only the Circle Line can.

PHILIP ''People move to Navan because they can't afford to live in Dublin.''

That's tough for them, then. But you can't have everything: cheap house in countryside equals long trip into central Dublin. Fact of life, not just in Dublin, but everywhere. Again, you have to look after the metropolitan areas before you start thinking of putting DART lines into provincial towns. And to do such a thing would encourage yet more sprawl, with developments springing up in villages near Navan - a '20 minute drive from Navan station' the estate agents would say.

PHILIP ''The proposed DART lines would be [1] Kildare-Malahide, [2] Maynooth-Bray, [3] Heuston-Howth''

I've been given conflicting reports of this. I don't blame anyone for being confused. The interconnector map looks like a cartoon. Where does Spencer Dock fit in, then? I'm sorry but you have to 'shout' at me, but I think that apart from the five or so P11 'regulars', I don't think your average person has a CLUE what the interconnectors routes are. For sure I don't; the routes seem to change every day to suit the position of whoever is making the argument.

Metrobest

Hi Gerard,

This is also the same Gerard from P11, I take it?

To answer your point, of course I know Metros can run over-ground. That's common in Sweden, Britain, France, Netherlands, Germany and the rest of Europe. The difference is, these are metro-standard lines that run on metro-only track. As far as I'm aware, no tube line in London shares track space with an intercity train or a diesal-powered train. The DART runs overground, shares track space with diesal, serves places like Greystones. You cannot call it metro, because is isn't metro. I would hate for people who aren't used to using a 'european' metro to think that DART is on a par with metro in Europe. It's not even close, my friend.

GerardKeating

Metrobest wrote:

Hi Gerard,
This is also the same Gerard from P11, I take it?

"from" in the sense of also posting to that message board. But I despair of their holy grail that is "Spenser Dock".

The "DART" could be a Metro system...

If the proposed Airport "service" was built as a DART, and 4-Tracked from the City to Rush. All InterCity service could be diverted from the Malihide/Howth to Connolly line and allowing that line to develop to a Metro level of service.

I posted "My Grand Scheme" on the P11 boards a while back. Basically a DART service from Sallins/Heuston/InterConnector/Connolly/Raheny/Howth

But my "interconnector" would like to the network at Connolly and not bother with Spensor Dock. the Luas extension can cover that.

Metrobest

Your idea of routing the enterprise and Drogheda lines via the airport sounds interesting. With the one stone it would kill two birds: Dublin airport gets hooked up to rail, capacity problems on the Northside DART are solved. Bravo!

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''I didn't see any ban on the P11 boards pertaining to you either''

When I type in the username and password it comes up: 'sorry, you have been banned for slagging off platfrom 11.' That is the level of these people: when you don't agree with them they ban you. Whatever happened to free speech, eh?

--If this is true it's wrong.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP '' Buildings get in the way of motorways and compulsory purchase orders are issued and they are demolished. For the greater good I'm afraid the same has to apply to railways.''

I agree with you, but in this situation I can't see it happening.

--So because you can't see it happening, it won't?

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Note that 4 out of the 5 developments on this page by Castlethorn in D15 are medium/high density''

I checked your link. Scroll down to the bottom and what's this? Oh, no less than five developments of low density houses with driveways and gardens. That's not going to deliver enough passengers to make a mero viable here.

--You're misrepresnting the facts again. Out of the 5 developments in D15 on that page, 4 are High/Medium density (that's 80%). 1 is semi-d's. The other semi-d developments on that page are not in D15, which is where you said there was no high density housing and you are wrong but seem inapable of admitting it.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''far higher than the densities you want to serve in Harolds X.''

With Harold's Cross, though, I see real potential for bus/metro interchange. That's why on the circle line I've placed stations at all the main entry points into central Dublin. I think your plan of the 39s all going to Castleknock station is nice in theory, but in practice people have an aversion to taking a 'roundabout' route into the CDR.. they will rather just take a bus directly into the centre.

--You know very little about the D15 area as displayed by your complete lack of knowledge relating to the current housing developments in the area. Why on earth would you be in a position to surmise where and how people might travel. Who says they're going to the city anyway, lots of people wrk in Intel and HP in Leixlip and in Sandyford and Bray etc, all reachable with a maximum of 1 change as opposed to 2 in your proposal.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Being a hump back bridge doesn't reduce a bridges capacity, it's got 2 lanes, one for each direction!''

Two very small lanes, Philip. Have you every tried to cycle a bike along this road in heavy traffic? Dangerous! I shudder to think of the danger to all road users if this area was being used as a transport interchange. It's just not suitable for such a purpose.

--Am I the only one who thinks this is a ridiculously poor argument for not building the interconnector? This bridge is fine and if it wasn't it could be replaced at minimal cost in relationship to the whole project.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Do you propose not persuading people to move to rail based transport because the traffic is so bad?!''

Course not. I think everyone should have the option of high-quality metro transport, every day. Precisely this is what the Circle Line and North/South line would bring. Whether from Newbridge or the Navan Road, Harold's Cross or Heuston, everyone can use a Central Dublin Metro. In the case of the 3.4bn interconnector, only those on living beside a rail line get the benefit, everyone else is left empty-handed.

--Everyone gets a go on your metro alright but it means more changes than neccessary and you said yourself that

Metrobest wrote:

people have an aversion to taking a 'roundabout' route into the CDR

and we've already discussed how people not in the immediate catchment area of rail based transport can integrate with buses, just like everywhere else in the world.

Metrobest wrote:

Traffic volumes in Dublin are not as insane as we are often told; rather, the road-space is just too inadequate for the volume of housing

--SO we do what? widen all the motorways leading into town to 3 lanes as you suggested previously?

Metrobest wrote:

And if you look at where the Interconnector lines run, 70 percent of Dublin city would be still nowhere near a rail line.

--I've never suggested that the Interconnector was the final solution. It's the best start to allow maximum development and capacity sweating of the DART system.

''I told you already, the N3 through blanchardstown is clogged with cars from Navan.''

Many of which are bound for the giant shopping centre and office park

--Wrong again, hardly any cars exit the N3 at the Blanchardstown Centre, the vast vast majority of morning cars are heading to the city or other sides of the city.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Navan has 50,000 people''

Why don't you tot up how many people live in Walkinstown, Crumlin, Harold's Cross, Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham, Ballinteer, Swords, etc etc etc. I think you'll have a few hundred thousand people all with one thing in common: they are nowhere near a rail station. Why would you like trains to zip along the green fields of Co. Meath to serve provincial Navan, but a Dubliner living in Walkinstown has to sit for an hour on a Dublin Bus. That can't be fair.

--That Dubliner deserves the DART IMHO. I have already stated quite clearly that I believe the interconnector will allow a massive development of the DART network not least 'in the gap' between the Luas lines. That Dubliners life will be improved by removing cars from Meath from his citys streets and freeing up roadspace for far more QBCs and Luas extensions.

PHILIP ''So we pander to the roads lobby to keep them happy instead of investing in our existing rail infrastructure and trying to tempt people out of the traffic jams.''

Metrobest wrote:

The interconnector can't solve the traffic problems that bedevil all the main arterie routes in and out of Dublin. Only the Circle Line can.

--Now that's just plain wrong and a real over simplification of the issues. The Interconnector project spawned routes run parallel to the main arterial routes into the city
M1-Northern Line
N3-Midland Line (to Clonsilla) and Navan spur to Dunboyne/Navan with P&R
N4-Midland Line to Maynooth/Mullingar and Cork line to Lucan/Celbridge P&R
N7-Cork line to Kildare/Naas/Newbridge/and even to Portlaoise.
N11-Bray line

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''People move to Navan because they can't afford to live in Dublin.''

That's tough for them, then. But you can't have everything: cheap house in countryside equals long trip into central Dublin. Fact of life, not just in Dublin, but everywhere. Again, you have to look after the metropolitan areas before you start thinking of putting DART lines into provincial towns

--Wrong again, the main heavy rail arteries into all European cities have at least 4 tracks (usually many more) entering them to separate local commuter trains from Inter City/Freight and this work was carried out long before most cities even contemplated metros. We are way behind with our heavy rail infrastructure and this needs immediate rectification.

Metrobest wrote:

And to do such a thing would encourage yet more sprawl, with developments springing up in villages near Navan - a '20 minute drive from Navan station' the estate agents would say.

--And with good planning, what's wrong with that if it takes cars out of Dublin?

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''The proposed DART lines would be [1] Kildare-Malahide, [2] Maynooth-Bray, [3] Heuston-Howth''

I've been given conflicting reports of this. I don't blame anyone for being confused. The interconnector map looks like a cartoon. Where does Spencer Dock fit in, then? I'm sorry but you have to 'shout' at me, but I think that apart from the five or so P11 'regulars', I don't think your average person has a CLUE what the interconnectors routes are. For sure I don't

--for sure. I read the proposal hearing given to the Oireachteas Transport Committee by IE chief executive, Joe Meagher. He should know I reckon, even if you don't. The interconnector map is excellent btw folks, check out the from page of www.platform11.org and see what he's talking about. It's colour coded and everything to show how the lines would operate.

Metrobest

PHILIP ''If this is true it's wrong.''

It's true, sadly.

PHILIP ''Out of the 5 developments in D15 on that page, 4 are High/Medium density (that's 80%). 1 is semi-d's.''

Let's not get into pedantics about one private development firm. Your website shows a lot of low-density housing on it, though. That doesn't auger well.

PHILIP 'Why on earth would you be in a position to surmise where and how people might travel. Who says they're going to the city anyway, lots of people wrk in Intel and HP in Leixlip and in Sandyford and Bray etc, all reachable with a maximum of 1 change as opposed to 2 in your proposal.''

Many do. But they drive cars along the M50. Which is why that road needs another lane plastered onto it. Even with an interconnector, anyone working in the M50 ring will continue to use Car. The public transport isn't - and can never be - good enough for such commutes. We have to focus on where most people are going: central Dublin. Without a strong metro network here, what hope for transport anywhere else?

As far as changes go, even though making an extra change, a passenger on the Maynooth line changing in Drumcondra for the North/South line and Ranelagh for LUAS to Sandyford would reach their destination faster than going via Connolly or Interconnector.

PHILIP ''and we've already discussed how people not in the immediate catchment area of rail based transport can integrate with buses, just like everywhere else in the world.''

The thing is, the road network leading to Coolmine, Castleknock, Clonsilla and Ashtown is woeful. Of the four, I would suggest Ashtown has the largest potential: right next to the Ashtown roundabout the station would make an ideal interchange of 37,38,39,70 (from your beloved Dunboyne) and this would take pressure off the city end of the Navan Road.

PHILIP ''So we do what? widen all the motorways leading into town to 3 lanes as you suggested ''

Certainly the M50 needs it.

PHILIP ''Wrong again, the main heavy rail arteries into all European cities have at least 4 tracks''

But the equivilent of Navan in Holland, or Navan outside Paris, or Navan outside London is the exact same as the Irish Navan. When people choose to live in a provincial setting tens of miles from the city centre, they have to settle for poorer transport connections. Sorry, that's reality for you.

PHILIP ''And with good planning, what's wrong with that if it takes cars out of Dublin?''

There's a lot wrong. Towns like Navan don't have the ammenities to support such population development. Fine if they are working in Navan, that's terriffic. But when you've got dormant housing estates, lifeless villages Monday-Friday, one long commute, that's bad. What happens with schools, sewage, broadband internet, all this sort of thing? I think the government should give a tax break to people who buy houses within, say 6km of Dublin city centre, because here we have the vile situation of a Central Dublin population in decline, while the countryside of meath and kildare is being gobbled up by tacky, suburbanised, car-dependent housing estates. T

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Out of the 5 developments in D15 on that page, 4 are High/Medium density (that's 80%). 1 is semi-d's.''

Let's not get into pedantics about one private development firm. Your website shows a lot of low-density housing on it, though. That doesn't auger well.

--I'm not getting into pedantics about anything, You're ignoring hard facts. You claimed there was no high density housing along or in development along the Maynooth line. You are wrong, 80% of the developments of just that one company are high density.

PHILIP 'Why on earth would you be in a position to surmise where and how people might travel. Who says they're going to the city anyway, lots of people wrk in Intel and HP in Leixlip and in Sandyford and Bray etc, all reachable with a maximum of 1 change as opposed to 2 in your proposal.''

Metrobest wrote:

Many do. But they drive cars along the M50. Which is why that road needs another lane plastered onto it. Even with an interconnector, anyone working in the M50 ring will continue to use Car.
The public transport isn't - and can never be - good enough for such commutes

--I live in Hartstown. If I worked in Sandyford or Blackrock or ParkWest or Rialto or Inchicore there's no way I'd drive if the interconnector was built.

Metrobest wrote:

We have to focus on where most people are going: central Dublin. Without a strong metro network here, what hope for transport anywhere else?

--The Interconnector delivers people to the city centre with 0 changes.

Metrobest wrote:

As far as changes go, even though making an extra change, a passenger on the Maynooth line changing in Drumcondra for the North/South line and Ranelagh for LUAS to Sandyford would reach their destination faster than going via Connolly or Interconnector.

--You reckon? I reckon you're wrong. The interconnector built will show what the DART is capable of. The Broadstone trackbed could be reopened and submerge at Broadstone to travel underground to Tara Street/Pearse Street and Stephen's Green before heading south between the Red and Green Luas lines allowing people in Maynooth to reach Many more destinations with 0 changes. Even without this-there would still be just 1 change at Connolly when the Green line is extended (as it will be).

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''and we've already discussed how people not in the immediate catchment area of rail based transport can integrate with buses, just like everywhere else in the world.''

The thing is, the road network leading to Coolmine, Castleknock, Clonsilla and Ashtown is woeful

--No it isn't. It's clogged with cars driving into town. The road network around Blanchardstown is actually quite good, with many new distributor roads (such as Ongar) opened or planned.

Metrobest wrote:

Of the four, I would suggest Ashtown has the largest potential: right next to the Ashtown roundabout the station would make an ideal interchange of 37,38,39,70 (from your beloved Dunboyne) and this would take pressure off the city end of the Navan Road.

--Beside the massive Rathborne and Canal Bank developments http://www.rathborne.info/about_rath.html ? ANd why make people from Clonsilla travel all the way to Ashtown to transfer to the higher speed and capacity of DART instead of transfering at Clonsilla??? Anyway, the capacity isn't there for all these people because of the Connolly bottleneck (which the interconnector removes)

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''So we do what? widen all the motorways leading into town to 3 lanes as you suggested ''
Certainly the M50 needs it.

--The M50 is an orbital motorway which should have been 3 lanes from day one. I asked you would you widen all the approach roads to the city to three lanes and you didn't answer that question.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Wrong again, the main heavy rail arteries into all European cities have at least 4 tracks''

But the equivilent of Navan in Holland, or Navan outside Paris, or Navan outside London is the exact same as the Irish Navan. When people choose to live in a provincial setting tens of miles from the city centre, they have to settle for poorer transport connections. Sorry, that's reality for you.

--Your point is what? What has Navans position in relation to Dublin got to do with Quad tracking the Northern Line and Kildare route (the only routes I ever mentioned quad tracking)? It is imperative that we quad these lines to allow Inter City services to be separated from commuter services. And your point about poorer transport connections for people who can't afford to live nearer Dublin is true with your mentality even though excellent transport links are a very real proposition for these people.

Metrobest wrote:

There's a lot wrong. Towns like Navan don't have the ammenities to support such population development. Fine if they are working in Navan, that's terriffic. But when you've got dormant housing estates, lifeless villages Monday-Friday, one long commute, that's bad. What happens with schools, sewage, broadband internet, all this sort of thing? I think the government should give a tax break to people who buy houses within, say 6km of Dublin city centre, because here we have the vile situation of a Central Dublin population in decline, while the countryside of meath and kildare is being gobbled up by tacky, suburbanised, car-dependent housing estates.

--Navan and other satellite towns can support thse people locally and no matter where these people live these amenities will have to be provided and tax breaks for people who can afford to purchase in Dublin would be an insult to those who cannot Sir.

GerardKeating

Metrobest wrote:

I can't believe you can say that. 16 trains means 16 trains divided between Bray/Maynooth, Bray/howth and Bray/Malahide. It's a three-way split.

But there is no such split in the plans. The "Interconnector" as currently planned is for all DARTS from Bray to go to Maynooth. None go to Malihide/Howth. Those areas are to be services from Kildare..

GerardKeating

Metrobest wrote:

A train every 10 minutes is the best Maynooth can hope for if the interconnector gets the nod, so it won't actually deliver that much extra peak capacity.

Current peak time is two trains an hour from Leixlip to Connolly, so every 10 minutes is 6 trains an hour, a 300% increase.

murphaph

So we've established that Metrobest states that there is no high density housing along the routes the interconnector would upgrade. He's clearly wrong as anyone who lives in these places or who clicks the links I supplied to him knows. He also states that the minimum improvement we could expect (6 trains per hour is the bare minimum we could expect as there will be capacity for 16 trains per hour over the loop line whic IE states will be dedicated to the Maynooth-Bray line) ,at 300%, is a poor improvement. 300% man! that's a threefold increase and that's the bare minimum we could expect to Maynooth/Bray/Kildare/Malahide/Howth/Possibly Airport and ALL STOPS IN BETWEEN THESE TERMINII, ie metropolitan Dublin!

The interconnector is the first second phase of the DART and not the last. People living in Swords could well get a spur to DART once the capacity issues at Connolly are taken care of with the interconnector and quad tracking strategic sections of track coupled with electrification.

Just as a side note, and yet again demonstrating Iarnrod Eireanns Engineering Departments foresight...........

The Midland line (the one that runs directly from platform 7 at Connolly along the canal south of Croke Park to Glasnevin Junction) has been relayed with CWR track, concrete sleepers (that IE make themselves!) and the track bed has been lowered under the over bridges to allow easy electrification of this 'express route' from Maynooth to Connolly platform 7 and/or Spencer Dock surface station when it is opened. This company has been starved of funding for decades and it's a miracle the railways in Ireland are still running, nevermind experiencing the rebirth that they are.

Metrobest

PHILIP ''You claimed there was no high density housing along or in development along the Maynooth line. You are wrong, 80% of the developments of just that one company are high density.''

Low-density housing in suburbia leads to massive traffic congestion and infrastructural costs. Walk around most of Dublin 15 and as far as the eye can see, low density dominates. Apartments are scarce. In Amsterdam all new developments are four or five stories high. In Dublin this is the exception, not the rule. Castlethorn is right to boast it is setting new architectural standards; it's new because it hasn't been done before, it's unique because all other development taking place IS unsustainable suburban estates with back gardens and driveways and high walls.

PHILIP ''I live in Hartstown. If I worked in Sandyford or Blackrock or ParkWest or Rialto or Inchicore there's no way I'd drive if the interconnector was built.

But I think you'll find a lot of people aren't as easily coaxed into public transport as you are. The dynamic of Dublin is that like a giant asterix most people gravitate towards the centre. You could have submarines whizzing from outer-suburb to outer-suburb; the roads would still be stuffed with Car.

PHILIP ''The Interconnector delivers people to the city centre with 0 changes.''

But it only helps people who already live near a station. It brings rail to hardly any new population centres in central Dublin.

PHILIP ''And why make people from Clonsilla travel all the way to Ashtown to transfer to the higher speed and capacity of''

Ashtown is a better interchange point; it connects with all the Dublin 15 interchange points. To Drumcondra passengers would be two stops away from changing onto the North/South or Circle Lines.

PHILIP ''I asked you would you widen all the approach roads to the city to three lanes and you didn't answer that question.''

In central Dublin, no. In suburban Dublin, yes. So roads like the Navan Road outbound from Astown would get an extra lane, the Navan Road inbound would stay the way it is, encouraging people to leap into a train at Ashtown.

PHILIP ''Navan and other satellite towns can support thse people locally and no matter where these people live these amenities will have to be provided and tax breaks for people who can afford to purchase in Dublin would be an insult to those who cannot Sir.''

They shouldn't have to. Plenty of space is vacant in Central Dublin, waiting for development to sprout up. Why build in Navan when you can build in Smithfield, or Cork Street, or Harold's Cross. Madness.

You seem happy that Dublin is extending further and further outwards like a demented spider's web. It shouldn't be happening. Amsterdam has the same population as Dublin contained within a geographical area half the size. We have a choice: continue as we are (which leads to further suburban sprawl) or concentrate infrastructure in central Dublin (which like a magnet will suck people towards the central area, encouraging high-density development there.)

Ps. Philip. Interesting that Platfrom 11 has removed the Dublin Metro forum. Also my posts have been buried deep inside some other of their forums. What an act of cowardice. Afraid of someone challenging their position, they have banned me. That's something you usually associate with dictatorial regimes, not ''public'' websites. How nice of them to 'unban' me once they win the argument. How very democratic indeed.

People can make up their own minds. They can agree with me or disagree. I'm just putting forward a plan that I think can make Dublin a better place. Living in Amsterdam I can see what's wrong with Dublin's transport, and I can see the ways to fix it. People are entitled to challenge my views. That, I relish. And I can assure you I will never advocate the banning of those who, as P11 would put it, ''fail to understand'' me.

Hecate

Living in Amsterdam I can see what's wrong with Dublin's transport

?

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''You claimed there was no high density housing along or in development along the Maynooth line. You are wrong, 80% of the developments of just that one company are high density.''

Low-density housing in suburbia leads to massive traffic congestion and infrastructural costs. Walk around most of Dublin 15 and as far as the eye can see, low density dominates. Apartments are scarce. In Amsterdam all new developments are four or five stories high. In Dublin this is the exception, not the rule. Castlethorn is right to boast it is setting new architectural standards; it's new because it hasn't been done before, it's unique because all other development taking place IS unsustainable suburban estates with back gardens and driveways and high walls.

--Again with the assumptions. You are stating categorically that Castlethorn are the only high density developer. This is untrue and everyone knows it's untrue. Making things up won't help your argument any. To put some of this in context, a planning application for Coolmine was rejected recently because the developer wanted to go to 7 storeys! This in an area of nothing but sprawl? The development will proceed at 5 storey height. 7 storeys was deemed too high in comparison to the 4 storeys of the neighbouring Woodbrook Grove development, again, in an area with nothing but sprawl? D15 is changing far more rapidly than the insufficient rail line that serves it my friend.

PHILIP ''I live in Hartstown. If I worked in Sandyford or Blackrock or ParkWest or Rialto or Inchicore there's no way I'd drive if the interconnector was built.

Metrobest wrote:

But I think you'll find a lot of people aren't as easily coaxed into public transport as you are. The dynamic of Dublin is that like a giant asterix most people gravitate towards the centre. You could have submarines whizzing from outer-suburb to outer-suburb; the roads would still be stuffed with Car.

--wtf? Dublin has changed a lot since you left it mate. I live AND work in D15. My neighbour works in Tallaght. My other neighbour works in Swords. At's true a lot of people work in the CBD but not the majority.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''The Interconnector delivers people to the city centre with 0 changes.''

But it only helps people who already live near a station. It brings rail to hardly any new population centres in central Dublin.

--Not true. The massive capacity unleashed by interconnector/electrification mean new stations such as those to be built between Coolmine and Clonsilla and between Ashtown and Broombridge will serve those living near these areas. The shear capacity will draw yet more via a 1 change bus-rail journey to the city centre (and beyond). Other new stations are to be constructed at Adamstown (Lucan new town), Clondalkin station is to be moved west, Cherry Orchard ststion is a stones throw from town yet nobody uses it to get to town. Why is this I hear you ask. Well, it's because trains can only run to Heuston. The interconnector means these trains can continue to Christchurch, Stephens Green, Pearse Station, Spencer Dock (www.spencerdock.ie) and onwards to Malahide/Drogheda. Cherry Orchard ststion as actually going to be relocated to Park West where another new high density town is planned by Dublin City Council. The interconnector, as I have told you a number of times before, will also free up the capacity constraints at Connolly allowing the Navan/Dunboyne spur to be reopened. I know you are in favour of punishing people for not being able to afford to live in central Dublin by making them sit in traffic jams all along the N3 etc. and the very though of providing rail transport to these people sickens you.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''And why make people from Clonsilla travel all the way to Ashtown to transfer to the higher speed and capacity of''

Ashtown is a better interchange point; it connects with all the Dublin 15 interchange points. To Drumcondra passengers would be two stops away from changing onto the North/South or Circle Lines.

--Your 'An Lar' mindset is really shining through here. Why does Ashtown Station (situated on a very narrow road-have you ever been there or are you just looking at a map?) strike you as a better transfer point for D15 residents? If I live in Westend apartment complex beside the Blanchardstwn centre, the nearest station to me would be the proposed (funding secured) station between Coolmine and Clonsilla and failing that either Coolmine or Clonsilla are WAY closer to this large apartment development yet you propose ferrying them all the way to Ashtown down the clogged N3 sharing the roadspace with the 'poor people' who live in Navan!

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''I asked you would you widen all the approach roads to the city to three lanes and you didn't answer that question.''

In central Dublin, no. In suburban Dublin, yes. So roads like the Navan Road outbound from Astown would get an extra lane, the Navan Road inbound would stay the way it is, encouraging people to leap into a train at Ashtown.

--Hmmm where would they park their cars? The land has been taken for, what's this? http://www.rathborne.info/siteplan/location.html and to show the scale of this development in 'sprawling suburbia' take a look at the artists conception of the central boulevard http://www.rathborne.info/about_rath.html. And in any case, you want them to leap into what train? the 2 trains per hour at peak times? They have a total capacity of app. 4000 (using 8 car sets). That capacity is already swallowed up by the people living here, let alone the massive new customer base these developments will provide.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Navan and other satellite towns can support thse people locally and no matter where these people live these amenities will have to be provided and tax breaks for people who can afford to purchase in Dublin would be an insult to those who cannot Sir.''

They shouldn't have to. Plenty of space is vacant in Central Dublin, waiting for development to sprout up. Why build in Navan when you can build in Smithfield, or Cork Street, or Harold's Cross. Madness.

--You're ignoring awkward facts again, like preservation orders and listed buildings. All 'infill' development land in cenral Dublin sells for an arm and a leg and is populated with apartment blocks nowadays. Where is this plenty of space? we can't build on every square inch of green even in the city centre we must provide places for children to play etc.

Metrobest wrote:

You seem happy that Dublin is extending further and further outwards like a demented spider's web. It shouldn't be happening. Amsterdam has the same population as Dublin contained within a geographical area half the size. We have a choice: continue as we are (which leads to further suburban sprawl) or concentrate infrastructure in central Dublin (which like a magnet will suck people towards the central area, encouraging high-density development there.)

--Nothing could be further from the truth. I am a big fan of High density housing and will be quite happy to move into an apartment in Munich very soon. Dublin historically sprawled and now that trend is being arrested by high density housing in all the places I have mentioned. I like high density, however, we should not consider it as the ony way to live. The Netherlands is a very special case and does not compare well to Ireland. The Netherlands is the most densely populated country in Europe (and I believe since HK went back to China, the world). Ireland is actually the most sparsely populated country in Europe.

Metrobest wrote:

Ps. Philip. Interesting that Platfrom 11 has removed the Dublin Metro forum. Also my posts have been buried deep inside some other of their forums. What an act of cowardice. Afraid of someone challenging their position, they have banned me. That's something you usually associate with dictatorial regimes, not ''public'' websites. How nice of them to 'unban' me once they win the argument. How very democratic indeed.

--I was intrigued about this so I asked them about it. They claim that they will be launching a very high profile public campaign shortly and joe public will be directed towards their site. As there are only 2 proposals before government (interconnector v RPAs Airport Metro (which you are against)) they do not want 'newbies' to the debate being confused with made up proposals like yours in case they should thaink that that's what 'metro' means, instead of the solitary, poorly connecting line it is.

Metrobest wrote:

People can make up their own minds. They can agree with me or disagree. I'm just putting forward a plan that I think can make Dublin a better place. Living in Amsterdam I can see what's wrong with Dublin's transport, and I can see the ways to fix it

--You live in an entirely different city with a different layout in terms of densities. Dublin is changing its attitude to high density but there are still large areas of houses with gardens that need quality public transport and this can be provide by rail/rail and rail/bus combinations. What you are proposing goes way beyond a transport solution-you are talking about completely rebuilding Dublin from scratch to fit in with you metro!

Metrobest wrote:

People are entitled to challenge my views. That, I relish. And I can assure you I will never advocate the banning of those who, as P11 would put it, ''fail to understand'' me

--I enjoy healthy debate also. People are entitled to add to this debate and I'd like to hear how people feel about the interconnector. Pull no punches folks!

Metrobest

PHLIP ''a planning application for Coolmine was rejected recently because the developer wanted to go to 7 storeys! This in an area of nothing but sprawl?''

You are deliberately choosing the few examples of high-rise development, and claiming that EVERY development being built in Dublin 15 meets this criteria. Simply untrue. 95 percent of Laurel Lodge consists of large semi-Ds with front and rear gardens. Even on Castlethorn's list of you'll see two developments - the Courtyard in Clonsilla and Riverwood in Castleknock - featuring two-storey buildings. Not high-rise.

Amsterdam and Dublin ARE compatible. If you look at a map of Amsterdam on this link http://www.gvb.nl/engels/default.htm you wil see the yellow areas where development has clustered right next to the centre. Ten years ago, a lot of development in the West and North didn't exist. The development that's taken place has been concentrated, high-rise developments within 6KM of Amsterdam's historical centre. That's why the city of Amsterdam is building the North/South line to look after the two-hundred thousand people in the Central Amsterdam area who don't have metro. http://www.ivv.amsterdam.nl/nzlijn/english/trace.htm?PHPSESSID=f2de42dfda497f037e5886bdeda1cc50
The comparisons ARE valid. Twenty years ago Amsterdam stood where Dublin stands now. Thirty years ago Amsterdam had no metro at all. The right decisions were taken. So Amsterdam built metros that encourage people to live and do business in the Central Amsterdam district. These links have made it the city it is today. Your Interconnector encourages sprawl, because it incentivises people to live far out from central Dublin, while giving little/no advantage to existing Dubliners.

PHILIP ''Why does Ashtown Station strike you as a better transfer point for D15 residents? If I live in Westend apartment complex beside the Blanchardstwn centre...''

Three-lane the Navan Road outbound from the Ashtown Roundabout. Three-lanes would benefit the good people of Dunboyne and Navan. Road and rail aren't incompatible. An underground car park could link to the station platfrom; there's plenty of space to widen the road into Ashtown station. For public transport, a bus could zip from Westend to Ashtown in ten minutes along the bus lane. Blanchardstown Roundabout to Ashtown is a super-quick trip. A bus would probably take longer to navigate Blanch village towards Castleknock than it would to reach Ashtown. And have you seen the traffic where the Bell pub is each morning? Mayhem. It's a tiny road. There is no way to have a reliable bus connection to Castleknock station. Coolmine is the same story. Ashtown is the most-underused station on this line; therefore it is the one that can accomodate the greatest increase in passengers.

PHILIP ''and the very though of providing rail transport to these people sickens you.''

Don't exaggerate, dear. In an ideal world they would have a rail line. Ideal the world is not. So we have to take care of central Dublin first. Navan can wait. Its residents are well used to it by now!

PHILIP ''Where is this plenty of space?''

The Phoenix Park near Heuston, sections of Harold's Cross, Cork Street, Dolphin's Barn area. Lots of room for SUSTAINABLE, metropolitan development here. But you'd prefer thousands of new semi-Ds in unspoilt rural areas twenty minutes' drive from Navan train station. Bizarre.

PHILIP ''they do not want 'newbies' to the debate being confused with made up proposals like yours in case they should thaink that that's what 'metro' means, instead of the solitary, poorly connecting line it is.''

Hmm, sounds very Orwellian to me. Obviously they are not very confident in their own arguments. And every proposal is ''made-up''. That's why it's a proposal. You PROPOSE something. The Interconnector plan didn't drop out of the sky; somebody dreamed it up. The supporters of the Interconnectot have an agenda. They want to stifle debate and muzzle any criticism of their plans. Let them do that if they wish. In twenty years time, we will see how Dublin has developed. Under my plan it would resemble sustainable Amsterdam. Under their plan it will resemble sprawling LA, and the next thing you know there'll be a campaign to extend the 'metro' to Athlone and Edgeworthstown, Co. Longford.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

Is this the same Philip who posts on Platfrom 11? If so you should declare your interest.

Anything to delare yourself? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=126578

Oh do you have a map of your proposal? Please note the large amount of empty space around Harold's Cross, especially the hospice, cemetary and park.

silverside

In fairness Harold's cross is pretty much high-density already (well the end near the Canal anyway) - a lot of the old buildings on the main road to Tempelogue look like they are ready to be knocked down and replaced with apartments.

Without taking sides too much, an advantage of the DTO plan is that stations in places like Harold's Cross, Kimmage, etc can be built underground where necessary.

If the Madrid model was followed these stations and new lines need not take too much time/money.

Now that Charlie McCreevy is gone, Harney,Brennan seemed to favour the RPA metro plan, and Bertie seemed impressed with Manolo the spanish engineer. On the other hand Irish Rail seem to know what they are about under their new chief also.

I think there is more heat than light on this thread. I would like to see both the interconnector and the airport metro built - I don't think serving swords/the airport via a spur off a congested mainline is the way forward.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

You are deliberately choosing the few examples of high-rise development, and claiming that EVERY development being built in Dublin 15 meets this criteria. Simply untrue. 95 percent of Laurel Lodge consists of large semi-Ds with front and rear gardens.

--You stated there was no high density in D15 a while back, now you've stopped stating what you now know to be incorrect and are bringing into the debate a housing estate built well before the Celtic Tiger and the massive demand for housing we're now seeing.

Metrobest wrote:

Your Interconnector encourages sprawl, because it incentivises people to live far out from central Dublin, while giving little/no advantage to existing Dubliners.

--I've listed ad nauseum the places in Dublin as well as everywhere else that the interconnector gives advantage to. You just choose to ignore them because they don't fit in with your new lines on a map.

Metrobest wrote:

Three-lane the Navan Road outbound from the Ashtown Roundabout. Three-lanes would benefit the good people of Dunboyne and Navan. Road and rail aren't incompatible. An underground car park could link to the station platfrom

--huh? underground car park? where in relation to the station would it go and how many storeys underground? and yet again I ask what trains are these people going to board? I told you there are about 4000 seats per hour at peak through Ashtown as the system currently stands. This could be 32,000 with the interconnector.

Metrobest wrote:

there's plenty of space to widen the road into Ashtown station

--Again, no point with the dire capacity on the line at present, all caused by the bottleneck at Connolly that the interconnector solves once and for all.

Metrobest wrote:

For public transport, a bus could zip from Westend to Ashtown in ten minutes along the bus lane. Blanchardstown Roundabout to Ashtown is a super-quick trip. A bus would probably take longer to navigate Blanch village towards Castleknock than it would to reach Ashtown. And have you seen the traffic where the Bell pub is each morning? Mayhem. It's a tiny road. There is no way to have a reliable bus connection to Castleknock station. Coolmine is the same story

.
--Again you completely ignored what I said. The ideal station would be the station that Castlethorn are building between Clonsilla and Coolmine. I never even mentioned Castleknock station wrt to this particular point. Read my posts and reply to them, not to the voices in your head.

Metrobest wrote:

Ashtown is the most-underused station on this line; therefore it is the one that can accomodate the greatest increase in passengers.

--Explain please. The capacity of a rail system is principally governed by the size and frequency of trains, not by station patronage. Also, you obviously didn't check the links I provided you showing the massive Rathborne and Canal Bank developments going up beside Ashtown. Ashtowns capacity will be swallowed up with these. In any case, it surprises me little that you state incorrectly that Ashtown is the most under used station on this line when anybody that travels on it (and Iarnros Eireann) will tell you its Broombridge. You just can't help making things up cab you?

Metrobest wrote:

In an ideal world they would have a rail line. Ideal the world is not. So we have to take care of central Dublin first. Navan can wait. Its residents are well used to it by now!

--Hmmm, what do people make of this I wonder. You would do well to remember that 2/3 of Irelands taxpayers reside outside Dublin and would not be overly pleased with your comments that 'we' have to take care of central Dublin with 'their' money. In an ideal world then Navan should have a rail line you say? A wile back you made out that this encourages urban sprawl so which is it?

Metrobest wrote:

The Phoenix Park near Heuston, sections of Harold's Cross, Cork Street, Dolphin's Barn area. Lots of room for SUSTAINABLE, metropolitan development here. But you'd prefer thousands of new semi-Ds in unspoilt rural areas twenty minutes' drive from Navan train station. Bizarre.

--I have stated on record that I am in favour of higher density developments where appropriate. Building in the Phoenix Park? Are you serious? You think buiding on parks is sustainable development? Infill sites in Harolds X etc are snapped up in no time and apartments are promptly built on them at the moment. This is clearly not enough to satisfy demand.

Metrobest wrote:

And every proposal is ''made-up''. That's why it's a proposal. You PROPOSE something. The Interconnector plan didn't drop out of the sky; somebody dreamed it up

--You're right. IE have spent a lot of time and effort costing and planning the interconnector for a number of years now. The money is now available and they presented their proposal to government. Unlike IE, you have drawn lines on a map and said the metr should go here and there with no idea of cost but to compare it to Amsterdams metro. This is incredibly over simplistic with different labour, insurance and geology to name but a few differences. There are only 2 proposals before governemnt now and one of them will win. Which would you prefer to see built out of interest? interconnector or the RPA Airport Metro?

Metrobest wrote:

The supporters of the Interconnectot have an agenda. They want to stifle debate and muzzle any criticism of their plans. Let them do that if they wish. In twenty years time, we will see how Dublin has developed. Under my plan it would resemble sustainable Amsterdam. Under their plan it will resemble sprawling LA

--unless you have psychic abilities as well then I reckon it's a bit far fetched to foretell the future. I have an agenda, everyone has an agenda in life. Have I attempted to stifle this debate? I welcome your comments because each one strengthens the case for the interconnector and I'm confident the sensible, realistic readers of this board will see that.

murphaph

silverside wrote:

Without taking sides too much, an advantage of the DTO plan is that stations in places like Harold's Cross, Kimmage, etc can be built underground where necessary.

--Hi silverside. I think it should be pointed out that the DTO plans mean nothing in practice. They are more lines on maps with no money to fund them all. There are only 2 proposals before government now. 1 of them will receive funding, the other will have to wait or not get built at all. The proposals are the IE interconnector and the RPA single metro line to the Airport from the Green.

silverside wrote:

I think there is more heat than light on this thread. I would like to see both the interconnector and the airport metro built - I don't think serving swords/the airport via a spur off a congested mainline is the way forward

--Unfortunately one will have to wait (at best) for a few years before funding becomes available again. The bit about the congested mainline would be addressed by quad tracking the Northern Line to beyond Howth Jcn. This will completely separate Inter City services from DART. This is part of the 'Dublin Rail Plan' which is the proposal that contains the interconnector. There is a lot more to what has become known as the interconnector proposal than just a tunnel with 5 underground stations right through the city centre.Hope this helps clear some things up. I know there is a lot of confusion out there and that's partly governments fault for not being more open with the people.

Metrobest

PHILIP,
I don't want to get bogged down in a debate about Dublin 15. You keep trying to argue with me; why? I agree with a lot of what you're saying: that the Maynooth line deserves more trains. I think a ten minute frequency would work well. And I agree the line should be electrified.

We differ in that you think the Interconnector will add lots of extra capacity; I am more sceptical. You think Maynooth/Bray DARTs can run at high frequency; I don't: I think with Arrows and intercities sharing trackspace on the southside line, you can't have smooth frequencies of trains running through the loop line from Bray to Maynooth. That's a circle you can't square.

PHILIP ''I've listed ad nauseum the places in Dublin as well as everywhere else that the interconnector gives advantage to.''

You won't find me quibbling that an Interconnector would bring extra capacity: but only to EXISTING lines. The extent of the capacity is also something I doubt. People on P11 have been mentioning figures of 200,000 new rail passengers; these are theoretical figures I can't see being achieved in practice.

So why am I against the Interconnector? Simple. I don't think it delivers enough extra passengers. A Circle and North/South line would delivers tonnes more passengers for a similar cost. And I think the future lies in URBAN rail, not provincial rail.

What I want to create is a central Dublin metro bringing benefits to NEW rail users in areas that have never had a rail option before. Dublin deserves this and shouldn't have to make do with a third-rate bus network.

PHILIP ''Building in the Phoenix Park? Are you serious?''

Yes. Radical needs, radical solutions. A lot of the Phoenix Park is land that's never used by anybody. Why not make attractive places for people to live and put it to good use? I'm thinking of the Parkgate street end near Garda HQ. Surely it wouldn't hurt to shave a few hectares off this side of the Park and build high-density housing? The deer will still have plenty of room to run around!

PHILIP ''This is incredibly over simplistic with different labour, insurance and geology to name but a few differences.''

Insurance costs are higher in the Netherlands, labour laws stricter and the geology more complicated. Look at my link above: you'll see the line runs under a massive harbour and goes 60ft below surface under the oldest historical centre of Europe. Tunneling Dublin is a doddle by comparison. Again I ask, why a 3.4bn Interconnector when we can have two Metro lines at 1.5bn a piece? Amsterdam is doing it, so can Dublin.

PHILIP ''There are only 2 proposals before governemnt now and one of them will win.''

Well that's too bad. Because neither of these proposals brings value for money to the taxpayer. The Airport Metro is a vanity project, nice for the tourists but of little use to the commuting Dubliner. The Interconnector is nice for people who already have access to rail, but it does very little to relieve traffic pressure in central Dublin; it fails to bring rail to metropolitan areas in Dublin, and it doesn't deliver enough extra passengers to justify its (exorbitant) cost. Plus it spawns yet more suburban sprawl; so a central Dublin Metro, on the other hand, draws people into the central Dublin area and keeps the soul of the city in tact.

Metrobest

VICTOR ''Anything to delare yourself?''

Nothing, Victor, I'm simply an Irish national living in Amsterdam. I am left-orientated socially, right-economically. No political party affiliations whatsoever.

I have lived in three European capital cities and have developed a nose for how good public transport works. Simply I am an interested bystander, watching as I see this debate take shape over Dublin's future. Part of my reason for leaving Dublin was the bad PT. If I come back to live in Dublin, I would like to see in our capital city what EVERY OTHER prominent city of Dublin's size has: a proper, central metro system. There you have it.