Improve or remove Dublin airport?

sliabh

I thought I would throw this one out here and see what people think. Dublin airport is acknowledged as needing major work to improve it's capacity and even then it will remain a chaotic jumble, and contendor with Heathrow for worst layout in Europe.

So would it make more sense to abandon the Collinstown field and just build a new airport in a green-field site west of the city? For best results it would be beside a motorway and rail lines into the city and connecting to the rest of the country.

A lot of other cities have taken this approach. It's expensive but the results could be a lot better that the mess we have at the moment. I pass through Munich regularly and they opened their new airport about 6 years ago. It's 35km from the city and is a world away from Dublin in terms of layout, space and design.

What does anyone else think?

Flukey

In brief, I think they should leave it where it is and work on it there. As we all well know, it needs a rail connection to the city. They could also consider putting a link out to the Dublin Belfast line. In regards to the site itself, there is still room for expansion there. It is near the M1 and M50, so it is not badly placed. It is not too near or too far from the city. Dublin isn't really big enough for a second airport and moving this one would cause a lot of problems. It would be better to work on the site and deal with the problems there, rather than starting from scratch.

It'll be tough, but I think it would be best, but then that is only my opinion!

Victor

sliabh wrote:

I thought I would throw this one out here and see what people think. Dublin airport is acknowledged as needing major work to improve it's capacity and even then it will remain a chaotic jumble, and contendor with Heathrow for worst layout in Europe.

OK, Dublin needs a new runway to allow simulataneous take-off and landing and needs to improve public transport links, but how will it be a "chaotic jumble" with these improvements? How is Heathrow so bad if it has something like 60m passengers a year?

De Rebel

sliabh wrote:

What does anyone else think?

I think you are spot on. The place is a nightmare, and getting worse as time goes on. Pier D, or Terminal 2 will be the final straw.

Looking at a number of cities that took your approach (e.g. HK, Denver, Singapore, Dallas-Fort Worth) it has been an unmitigated success. And in at least two of those cases (HK and Denver), their starting point was considerably better than Dublin Airport is today.

There are times when you start again with any chunk of infrastructure. Putting our hands up, Ireland must rank as one of the worst nations on earth when it comes to infrastructure management. (rail, road, telecoms, etc) We just don't appear to have it in us.

We need a high speed rail connection from Cork to Belfast, also serving Dublin. We need a modern telecoms infrastructure. We need good roads. And we need a modern functional airport serving the capital. And what are we likely to get? Press releases. Lots and lots of press releases.

Don't hold your breath.

therecklessone

Victor wrote:

How is Heathrow so bad if it has something like 60m passengers a year?

100m+ and rising a year IIRC.

A parallel runway (thats long enough to accomodate long-haul flights, its a disgrace that [for example]the Singapore Cargo 747 has to stop in Copenhagen en-route to the far-east because of the length of 10/28) is a must at Dublin.

Of course, once thats done they might just get round to the mess that is the taxiways and apron at EIDW...might...

sliabh

Victor wrote:

OK, Dublin needs a new runway to allow simulataneous take-off and landing and needs to improve public transport links, but how will it be a "chaotic jumble" with these improvements? How is Heathrow so bad if it has something like 60m passengers a year?

I was referring to the buildings. There are huge queues for security. Any route from check in to a gate means long walks (well designed airports can keep this to less that 100m). And when you fly into the country there usually is a meandering walk up and down stairs, through a warren of corridors. It always feels like you are being taken through the staff sections of the airport.

And Heathrow is worse. The walk to the 80-90's gates used by Irish and Channel Island flights is very lenghty. And again the airport's organic growth over the years means it is a maze of buildings.

Both suffer from a fair degree of chaos at the car/bus drop off and pickup roads.

MG

Its a thought though unlikely to come to fruition for political reasons. Anyway, imagine trying to "decentralise" the staff.

It would be interesting to compare the cost of starting again and selling the current site to upgrading the current site complete with rail link etc.

Have to agree on the building, its the worst airport I have ever been too (though I've never been to CDG which is supposed to be the worst).

I would like to see Shannon, Cork, Kerry etc take some of the pressure off Dublin. There are too many passengers forced to go to Dublin to get flights because of the sacred misconception that all foreigners coming to Ireland want to fly to Dublin.

therecklessone

sliabh wrote:

Any route from check in to a gate means long walks (well designed airports can keep this to less that 100m).

I'm sorry, but thats completely unrealistic.

In the last few years I've been in:

Schipol (Amsterdam)
Arlanda (Stockholm)
Berlin (think it was Tegel)
Heathrow
Stansted
Copenhagen
Prague
Frankfurt
CDG (Paris)

Of them all, only Berlin came close to your 100m walk, and it wasn't that close.

You'd need hiking boots to get from check-in to gate in Schipol. And even if Stansted had a 100m walk, it would still take you 45 minutes to make it because of their horendous security queues.

EvilDoctorK

Capacity increases are required .. the existing terminal offers pretty limited scope for futher expansion as space is constrained by existing buildings / runway layout etc.

A terminal to the West of the existing terminal where there are plenty of green fields would offer a lot of room for a fresh start.

The parallel northern runway needs to be built (I think it's at the Environmental Impact Assesment Stage?) .. any new terminal would then sit between the two runways with much more space than the existing arrangement. This new terminal could compliment (or ideally/eventually replace) the existing structures.

From an accesss point of view access to such a new terminal could be from the M50/N2 ?

Complications arise because Aer Rianta has spent an awful lot of money (some would call it "gold plating") on the existing terminal - would this then be money down the drain ? .. but as has been frequently observed it really is bursting at the seams.... a lot more money would have to be spent again... At some stage an evaluation has to be made as to whether it would be better to make a totally fresh start vs. modifiying existing inadequate structures.

dmeehan

what about (re-)developing Baldonnel? it could be used by the likes of ryanair etc and summer charter flites

i know its near the M7/N7 but how clsoe is it to an existing rail line?

EvilDoctorK

I think Baldonnel has problems with the amount of open space close by - Citywest etc. constrains room for development there ... There's also the issue with Baldonnel that the aligment of the runway means that Approach/Departure paths would be over large swathes of South Dublin ... Dublin Airport doesn't generally have that issue ... except for the folk in Portmarnock who dont' like the idea of the new runway.

sliabh

therecklessone wrote:

I'm sorry, but thats completely unrealistic.

It's not actually. Apart from the small airports its quite possible. I go through Munich each week and their design allows it. The airport layout is linear. The terminal is nearly a km long and split into 5 modules. Each module has its's own check in desk, security, and then boarding gates. Cars drive up betwen Terminal 1 and 2, and there is multi story car parking between the two buildings. Underground between them there is the shopping centre and train station.

I drive up to the D module for the AL check. The aircraft gates are pretty much right behind the check in desks (say 30m in a straight line) so you just walk to the end of the line of check in desks and go through security to find the gates directly in front of you.

Dublin (and Heathrow) adopt the hourglass approach though. Everyone has to be funnelled through the one security bottle neck. So you have to walk a long way (and queue for ages) to get to security. Then you have a further long walk to get to the aircraft.

It works really well, and you do walk about 100m from car to plane.

Tom Dunne

It's all good and well talking about a new airport (or any new infrastructure for that matter) but they all boil down to one point - money. We simply can't afford a new airport (or a new motorway, or rail link, or hospital, etc.). I would dearly love to see Dublin Airport knocked to the ground and started afresh somewhere else. Somewhere it is easily accessible via both public and private transport. Somewhere you won't get screwed everytime you want to buy something, eat or park your car.

But let's face it, it's not going to happen. The country cannot afford it.

sliabh

tom dunne wrote:

It's all good and well talking about a new airport (or any new infrastructure for that matter) but they all boil down to one point - money. We simply can't afford a new airport (or a new motorway, or rail link, or hospital, etc.).
But let's face it, it's not going to happen. The country cannot afford it.

Relatively speaking we never have had as much money to spend on these things. So if we can't pay for them now when would ever do so? How much is going through the NDP at the moment, €3 or €4Bn a year?

Anyway this is more of a thought exercise. As far as I know the only suggestions that have come out about moving from Collinstown is to shift some flights to Baldonnel. And as EvilDoctorK the good middle class folk of Dublin are not going to agree to having "the scream of a low flying jet" overhead all day to make it happen.

But while airports are expensive you could finance a lot of the work through the sale of the old airport and getting private interests to build and operate the terminals.

As for the rip off. I have yet to encounter an airport anywhere in the world where they don't take you to the cleaners. It has to do with being a captive consumer.

Tom Dunne

Wow. I didn't realise I was being so cynical. :eek:

If I take off my cynical hat for a minute - I think it would be a great idea. It would have to be somewhre along the lines of Maynooth, Kilcock, maybe even further (and nearer my house!). Reasoning for this is the M4 motorway would be that bit less congested than the Cork/Limerick roads and provide easy access to the M50 to go north/south. A spur from the Sligo train line (again less busy than the Mayo/Galway and Cork/Limerick/Waterford lines). This region is also on the flightpath to/from Dublin airport, so complaints from the locals shouldn't be an issue.

I think the most important aspect of any infrastructure project is future-proofing. It's not point in building something like this for current passenger numbers, or projected numbers in the next five years. Look what happened the M50.

therecklessone

tom dunne wrote:

Wow. I didn't realise I was being so cynical. :eek:

If I take off my cynical hat for a minute - I think it would be a great idea. It would have to be somewhre along the lines of Maynooth, Kilcock, maybe even further (and nearer my house!). Reasoning for this is the M4 motorway would be that bit less congested than the Cork/Limerick roads and provide easy access to the M50 to go north/south. A spur from the Sligo train line (again less busy than the Mayo/Galway and Cork/Limerick/Waterford lines). This region is also on the flightpath to/from Dublin airport, so complaints from the locals shouldn't be an issue.

Then Baldonnel is what you're looking for. Existing facilities, with a main runway aligned to allow easy integration of Dub and Bal departures from an ATC perspective.

The problem is complaints from the locals. Noise complaints at Dublin stem from departing traffic turning too early from their assigned departure routes, and also arrivals overflying Portmarnock/Howth/Malahide. It is rare for residents of the Kilcock/Enfiled area to have aircraft at low levels overhead (except when Dublin is on runway 10), with runway 28 being the most active at Dublin jet traffic is usually at 5000ft+ by the time it reaches anywhere near Kilcock.

Commercial operations at Bal would mean far more aircraft at low levels in the South Dublin area, and an increase in local hostility. Try asking the boys at Weston how welcome their operations are.

therecklessone

sliabh wrote:

It's not actually. Apart from the small airports its quite possible. I go through Munich each week and their design allows it. The airport layout is linear. The terminal is nearly a km long and split into 5 modules. Each module has its's own check in desk, security, and then boarding gates. Cars drive up betwen Terminal 1 and 2, and there is multi story car parking between the two buildings. Underground between them there is the shopping centre and train station.

I stand corrected, though I imagine it would be as easy to operate at smaller airports, no?

therecklessone

sliabh wrote:

Anyway this is more of a thought exercise. As far as I know the only suggestions that have come out about moving from Collinstown is to shift some flights to Baldonnel. And as EvilDoctorK the good middle class folk of Dublin are not going to agree to having "the scream of a low flying jet" overhead all day to make it happen.

Gormanston's available, and its close to the M1 and the Dublin-Belfast railway. Relatively sparsely populated as well.

sliabh

therecklessone wrote:

I stand corrected, though I imagine it would be as easy to operate at smaller airports, no?

Oh yeah. Just think of Beauvais, Galway, Sligo or Farranfore

Victor

I found San Francisco (SFO) to be a good layout good.

sliabh wrote:

And when you fly into the country there usually is a meandering walk up and down stairs, through a warren of corridors. It always feels like you are being taken through the staff sections of the airport.

Actually this happens at quite a few airports. In JFK, I actually go to wondering if I was going in the right direction.

therecklessone wrote:

You'd need hiking boots to get from check-in to gate in Schipol.

Yeah, showing up sweating at the security checkpoint isn't good

dmeehan wrote:

what about (re-)developing Baldonnel? it could be used by the likes of ryanair etc and summer charter flites i know its near the M7/N7 but how clsoe is it to an existing rail line?

Doesn't work on the whole interconnectabilty issue.

sliabh wrote:

Relatively speaking we never have had as much money to spend on these things. So if we can't pay for them now when would ever do so? How much is going through the NDP at the moment, €3 or €4Bn a year?

And how much will a new airport cost €2bn? €3bn? €4bn?

therecklessone wrote:

Gormanston's available, and its close to the M1 and the Dublin-Belfast railway. Relatively sparsely populated as well.

Runway is too short and would need to be extended, either across the railway or into the sea.

tom dunne wrote:

Reasoning for this is the M4 motorway would be that bit less congested than the Cork/Limerick roads and provide easy access to the M50 to go north/south. A spur from the Sligo train line (again less busy than the Mayo/Galway and Cork/Limerick/Waterford lines). This region is also on the flightpath to/from Dublin airport, so complaints from the locals shouldn't be an issue.

Of course wouldn't this be convenient to the least number of people?

thejollyrodger

Dublin airport needs a 1 or 2 new terminals and a new runway. It also needs a Metro to serve it to bring it into the 21st century.

dowlingm

Baldonnel could become "Dublin-Stansted" as it has a clear run to the Kildare-Heuston-interconnector/park tunnel (try multimap for pictures)

Might have to specify no 737-200s and so on, i.e. Stage 3/4 fully compliant noise wise, but Ryan will be getting shot of them eventually.

The Air Corps can share operations, getting decent runway/taxiway paving (I believe it wasn't always thus) and money, or decamp to Farranfore, Waterford, Galway or Knock under decentralisation...

therecklessone

dowlingm wrote:

or decamp to Farranfore, Waterford, Galway or Knock under decentralisation...

A bloody good idea that, save them forking up civil operations just to practise their loop-the-loops over Kildare...

therecklessone

Victor wrote:

Yeah, showing up sweating at the security checkpoint isn't good :

Glad I'd cleared the security at Arlanda on Monday before the walk to gate F69, fork me t'was a camel ride and a half...worse with two uber-blisters, one on each heel. Felt pretty sorry for myself as I was overtaken by a stick-reliant old man...

Victor wrote:

Runway is too short and would need to be extended, either across the railway or into the sea.

Could put the train line underground before work commenced, no?

Victor

therecklessone wrote:

Could put the train line underground before work commenced, no?

I suppose they could, but I'm not sure if even that would work. I get the impression the terrain is something like this.

therecklessone

Victor wrote:

I suppose they could, but I'm not sure if even that would work. I get the impression the terrain is something like this.

A beautiful representation...

Never paid any attention when I passed by on the train.

dowlingm

Unfortunately Baldonnel will never happen, too sensible

Near N7/M50, quad track Kildare line... bah.

Gormanston is being sold for housing as far as I know, the price of the new PC9Ms I think.

sliabh

I don't know what the locality is like but from looking at a high level map something in the Sallins area suggests itself for a green field site.

EvilDoctorK

I still think there's no way it could be cost effective to build a new greenfield airport. Most if not all new airport constructions on greenfield sites are because the existing airport was totally constrained by the site it was on and offered no room for development/expansion. Thinking of Hong Kong, Osaka, Bangkok to name a few where greenfield airports have been/are being constructed.

Dublin doesn't have this problem - there's plenty of open space around the airport... much of it owned by Aer Rianta or whatever sucessor to Aer Rianta.

Therefore from a cost point of view it would be very hard to justify purchasing vast tracts of land (airports take up a lot of space) in the greater dublin area to start from scratch (or near scratch if you're thinking of Baldonnel/Gormanstown). The space is available on the existing site - using that would be the best option.

(also as a side note imagine how difficult it would be to clear legal hurdles etc. to get somethign like this build - locals wont' like it - imagine how many archaelogical remains would be under a few 000 acres that it would take?)

I would have thought the more important question would be do we start from scratch with a totally new terminal on the existing airport site or continue to squeeze/stretch the existing structure?

dowlingm

oh, the other suggestion for Baldonnel is to close Weston and move the private traffic to Bald., simplifying the airspace. Unfortunately a certain gentleman who carries on business in the Weston neighbourhood would prob just build another airfield without PP and then apply for it

Victor

dowlingm wrote:

oh, the other suggestion for Baldonnel is to close Weston and move the private traffic to Bald., simplifying the airspace. Unfortunately a certain gentleman who carries on business in the Weston neighbourhood would prob just build another airfield without PP and then apply for it

Not quite. He got PP to extend the runway into the Kildare County Council area. So he built it. Then South Dublin County Council refused permission to connect the two pieces.

BuffyBot

I don't know what the locality is like but from looking at a high level map something in the Sallins area suggests itself for a green field site.

I would find it highly unlikely. I can't think of anywhere local that would be suitable, and the residents of the built up towns nearby Naas, Clane, Newbridge, Sallins, Straffan etc would have a field day!

sliabh

Victor wrote:

Not quite. He got PP to extend the runway into the Kildare County Council area. So he built it. Then South Dublin County Council refused permission to connect the two pieces.

This is a photo of the area that I took a few months ago on the climb out from Dublin airport. It looks like the extended runway is parallel to the existing one.

dowlingm

I was actually thinking of a different PP row (not the airfield) but that's an interesting tidbit Victor.