Stadium Ireland Should it have been built??

thejollyrodger

In light of the shockingly poor performance of the Irish athelehes in Greece shouldn’t the Irish government pressed ahead with Stadium Ireland at abbotstown. The facilities in this country are at best 3rd world.

Those ministers who were dead against were obviously dead against any sports being properly developed in this country. Bertie Ahern should press ahead with the remainder of Stadium Ireland (i.e without the stadium) immeidately.

daveirl

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Sparks

No, not with the plans that they had. However, the Sports Campus Ireland project has pressed ahead, and that's looking to be much better than the Bertiebowl plans did. The aquatic center, for example, has come in on time and under budget.

AngelofFire

Is there any chance a private investor could finance it, i would normally disagree with that type of thing but in the context of sport i think that its ok.Our sporting infastructure is 3rd world.

1. I think we need a new stadium accomodating Football, GAA and Rugby and track and field games.

2.I think that Croker should be open to Football and Rugby with the GAA having first preference on fixtures. Im a GAA member myself and i would have no problem with it.

sceptre

daveirl wrote:

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Track could really do with a resurfacing. Last time it was done was when I was competing on it (as opposed to walking across it as a shortcut) AFAIK and that was a little over a decade ago. Other than that you're right (and it's still far better than Santry was after the same period of lack of care).

While there are certainly sports in Ireland that are underfunded and underdeveloped, as Dave said, a big shiny stadium in Abbotstown or anywhere else won't benefit the athletes any more than say, developing a big stadium and adding a hotel on in Drumcondra would for anyone playing hurling or pick-up-the-ball-and-run-with-it-occasionally-bouncing-it-but-not-counting-your-steps football. Actually funding promotion and coaching of sport (and providing facilities for sports that need them) would benefit the regular participants far more than building a stadium with seats for us all.

Note that I'm not saying we shouldn't build a stadium, I'm just saying that the idea that building a stadium would make any real difference to the atheletes or their performance is laughable.

thejollyrodger

Well tell me how having a large Stadium that would be making a loss would benefit our Track and Field Athletes.........The facilites in places like UL are second to none, so that's not a real excuse. A large stadium wouldn't help them.

I was on about the rest of the facilities apart from the stadium (which should have went ahead). For track and field. The facilities down in UL are 2nd rate at best so dont try and tell me that they reach any sort of international standard!!

The only money that was spent on this country just happened to be in Ahern's, Mc Crevy and O donohue constituienty. Everwhere else in Ireland has been pretty much shafted unless your into GAA. With all its virtues is only a ametur sport which doesnt have an international element. And it soaks up all the money.

There is no support for training of athlethes (just look at robbie keane, potential a great skriker but lacks a lot of coaching), or money to finance them!

The horses that won gold and silver were bred in Ireland, so obviously there are severe problems in any sort of planning. Its just not good enough

Sparks

We do need to see some facilities built though sceptre. Target Shooting desperately needs facilities, for example, and a national shooting center would be of immense use, so long as it was located somewhere like Abbotstown. Shooting outside the Pale is reasonably provided for in terms of large facilities, but anyone in Dublin who wants to shoot and who isn't a college student in UCD or TCD is pretty much screwed right now; also we have to go to Northern Ireland to host the National Championships in the 50m discipline. Which, I admit, is not such a bad thing since target shooting, like rugby, runs on a 32-county basis; but we're still screwed for the 10m air rifle event right now, we have to set up a temporary range in a community hall to host it, and that's a lot of heavy labour and it also means the range can't be used the rest of the year for training.

Archery, as I understand it, is in a similar situation, as are most minority sports; and as this shows, this is understood at a high level in sports administration.

sceptre

Sparks wrote:

We do need to see some facilities built though sceptre.

Absolutely - and you've given an excellent example. What I'm getting at (apparently badly:)) is that from the point of view of the athletes, they need the facilities to compete in their chosen sports. Adding seats to those facilities is (apart from the interest (which is obviously important as well) raised by being able to watch the sport) effectively an extra that doesn't greatly directly benefit the athlete. From the point of view of the competitor (and not just Olympic hopefuls, regular kids and regular people too), facilities first, exhibition centres second. And as you say, we need these facilities in this country rather than having to cross the border to even train, let alone compete.

thejollyrodger

1/4 of the population live in dublin so it makes sense to build on the existing infastrucuture... i.e the swimining facilities and locate the sports infastructure out there.. the Metro will be running close to it so it will all fit together.

thejollyrodger

the fact that our Eircom League has effectively been shunded by government money is yet another disgrace. Fair play to Shelbourne tonight, they have got that far in europe without any help from the government. Unlike the GAA and rugby

StickyMcGinty

thejollyrodger wrote:

the fact that our Eircom League has effectively been shunded by government money is yet another disgrace. Fair play to Shelbourne tonight, they have got that far in europe without any help from the government. Unlike the GAA and rugby

agree totally

the only excuse i've heard from the gaa people for not opening croker is "what happened to the moneey the fai got between 85-89"!


harney is the biggest opposer to using taxpayers money on abbotstown is she not?

Flukey

Well the FAI should have built a stadium years ago. That was always the real issue, not whether Croke Park should be opened or not. Basically the GAA were getting the blame for the FAI not having built their own stadium. The government gave the GAA a lot of money to do it, but the GAA matched it with their own and a lot of the government expense would be regained through tax, employment etc. Another reason the GAA got money was that they put a proposal together and went and looked for it. The FAI have basically sat on their laurels using the IRFU stadium and when it began to fail to meet their needs, they went looking to use someone else's instead of building their own. Eircom Park should have happened. The government did mess the FAI around a bit by getting them to shelve that in favour of the government proposal. Nevertheless, the core problem is still the FAI not having their won stadium. That is not the governments fault, the IRFU's fault and not the GAA's fault, though the whole Croke Park issue has been used to take the focus away from the FAI.

Imposter

Great, another GAA bashing thread on the issue.

I think the campus Ireland project (without the stadium) needs to go ahead if Ireland is ever to compete successfully at international level. Minority sports do need these facilities and are not in a position (at least initially) to fund them themselves.

Here is the grants given to sport for 2004. Most of this came from Lotto money and the like. You will notice that it is not all GAA and Rugby. In fact even the FAI themselves (not an club or anything else) also got 100,000. Minority sports also did quite well and probably got a fair share based on the number of participants. While this does not address the initial funding a lot of sports needs to get off the ground it does show that money for sports is divided pretty well based on the membership of the various clubs and societies.

thejollyrodger

Well GAA is all well and very good. The fact remains that the government has always gave it number 1 priority . It was pumping cash into it since day 1 as it was one of the key aspects which identified our culture and heritage.

But it has totally shunned the E.L. and FAI. The FAI wanted to go ahead with Eircom park and it would have been built long ago if the government would have help finance it.

One example the government could help interveen in is the 10million Euro out in Tallaght. Shamrock rovers are having problems raising the rest of the cash and the government could easily sort out some loan arrangement for the remainder of the cash.

Minority sports do need these facilities and are not in a position (at least initially) to fund them themselves.

Well said, how is shooting or rowing say going to finance itself? Abbotstown has already the swiming pool so it makes sense to keep building out there.

Also the GAA should be forced to open Croker. They are always whinging about how bad they are getting it, just take a look at the rest of other sports around the country and you will see that they are in the best position

Zombrex

sceptre wrote:

Track could really do with a resurfacing. Last time it was done was when I was competing on it (as opposed to walking across it as a shortcut) AFAIK and that was a little over a decade ago. Other than that you're right (and it's still far better than Santry was after the same period of lack of care).

Saw them resurfacing the track over the weekend

I guess every decade isn't too bad

daveirl

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thejollyrodger

I dont know if Johnny was talking about Ireland... if he was maybe he was being polite.

why shouldn't it be the number 1 beneficiary of funding

I have nothing against the GAA getting funding, my problem is the way other sports in Ireland are being totally shafted.

The government should help the likes of Shamrock rovers build their own new stadiums like the one in tallaght. Say they offer 100 to clubs in loans to help build the 10million Euro stadium. This is the only real way a club can generate revenue, by gate receipts. Its a catch 22.

The GAA have been treated well, the least thing they could do is open Croke park to other field sports. They will surely do it for concerts, American football etc

sceptre

Wicknight wrote:

Saw them resurfacing the track over the weekend

I guess every decade isn't too bad

Ah, good. Thanks Wicknight


/thinks of running spikes hidden at back of cupboard. Convinces self that feet have probably grown anyway

Imposter

thejollyrodger wrote:

I have nothing against the GAA getting funding, my problem is the way other sports in Ireland are being totally shafted.

Not true, look at the link I posted and check for the other years as well.

The government should help the likes of Shamrock rovers build their own new stadiums like the one in tallaght. Say they offer 100 to clubs in loans to help build the 10million Euro stadium. This is the only real way a club can generate revenue, by gate receipts. Its a catch 22.

I agree that the government should in general help out clubs looking to build the infrastructure within the club. However when it comes to soccer and even rugby clubs in Ireland I have the following questino. Are Shamrock rovers professional or even semi-pro? If so then why should their stadium be financed by the public when they seem to think they can afford to pay players? The GAA has the infrastructure it has in place, because it invested in it and communities, instead of deciding to pay players. Imo soccer in Ireland would be better now if it had done the same for the last 15 plus years.

The GAA have been treated well, the least thing they could do is open Croke park to other field sports. They will surely do it for concerts, American football etc

There's a thread in Soccer at the moment discussing this (even though it started about Lansdowne) but it's their choice and not the choice of the FAI, the government, the media or the average soccer or rugby fan on the street.

PH01

I voted 'Yes', but I'm not really in favour of building it but the money should have been allocated and spent on building up the sporting infrastructure in this county on sports other than Rugby, Soccer, Horse Racing and GAA.

thejollyrodger

im not talkiing about the actual stadium going ahead, im on about the rest of the stadium ireland project.

Eircom league clubs are trying to go professional not to pay the players, but so they can compete with teams in europe. Everyone is amature in GAA so it doesnt matter for them.

Mighty_Mouse

<Rant>Oh lovely! More €60 shirt-wearing Man United fans ranting about how they're gonna march to the amateur sporting stadium of Croke Park if a world class soccer stadium isn't built to accomodate the professional sports: soccer and rugby!

March to fecking FAI headquaters/Dail Eireann if your feeling so energetic! I don't know how people still manage to even link the GAA, with problems associated with inefficient soccer and rugby organisations have experienced over the years.

I don't recall soccer fans screaming for Croker to be opened when it was a pile of rubbles built on top of 1916 rubble not so many years ago. Its seems the Green-eyed tiger is alive and well in Ireland 2004!! </Rant>

ps: this topic has been discussed to death a million times!

sceptre

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Oh lovely! Another €60 shirt-wearing Man United fan ranting about how they're gonna march to the amateur sporting stadium of Croke Park if a world class soccer stadium isn't built to accomodate the professional sports: soccer and rugby!

I must have missed thejollyroger saying any of that. Link me back to it willya? Especially the bits about the Man United jersey (just the jersey, I don't care how much they cost) and the march

Imposter

PH01 wrote:

I voted 'Yes', but I'm not really in favour of building it but the money should have been allocated and spent on building up the sporting infrastructure in this county on sports other than Rugby, Soccer, Horse Racing and GAA.

But the money is spent on minority sports as well. Aside from world class facilities every sport does get grants that more or less equal it's popularity (over the long term). These grants usually support the sport's investments (largely in infrastructure but also in people). It's the world class facilities that's lacking and that would be what campus Ireland would provide.

AngelofFire

I agree that use of the Croke park by other sports should be at the discretion of the GAA and that the FAI have no one to blame for themselves for their lack of a saduim. However I think that it would be a good idea if the GAA allowed soccer matches to be played there, they would make a lot of money from it and they would have first preference on fixtures. The NFL in america allowed their stadiums to be used by FIFA during the 1994 world cup, i dont see why the GAA wont allow their stadiums to be used.

I accept that Croke Park is a place of Cultural importance to the GAA, but i dont think that allowing soccer and rugby in would dilute that.

Sparks

Imposter wrote:

Here is the grants given to sport for 2004. Most of this came from Lotto money and the like. You will notice that it is not all GAA and Rugby. In fact even the FAI themselves (not an club or anything else) also got 100,000. Minority sports also did quite well and probably got a fair share based on the number of participants.

To clarify - those are the figures for the Sports Capital Grant programme. This programme is not under the control of the Sports Council or the Olympic Council, but the Department of Sport. And those amounts of money cannot be used to directly support athletes through buying coaching, consumables, or anything that doesn't last for at least five years. It's given out to clubs for building facilities or buying capital equipment only; and you have to own the land the club is on, or have a lease exceeding 25 years before you qualify to apply. College clubs can't apply, though there is some confusion this year with the UCD boat club. And it's not always a 100% grant - the club has to match the money put up by the government, though in some cases (where the facility would be of regional benefit for example), the grant is made a 100% one.

And minority sports didn't do so well, because unless they have long-term established clubs they couldn't even apply. Not one target shooting club got a grant from this programme since it's inception, for example. And, in typical "you have to have money to get money" fashion, many of the successful proposals cost a fair amount of time and effort to put together.

Sparks

Imposter wrote:

But the money is spent on minority sports as well. Aside from world class facilities every sport does get grants that more or less equal it's popularity (over the long term).

No, we don't. The Irish Clay Pigeon Shooting Association, for example, produced a team which has taken medals at World Cups, a gold at the World Championships, and narrowly missed the finals for the Olympics this time. They get between 18k and 20k per year. Athletes get individual carding grants once they win a competition, and those come to between 1600 euro (for juniors) and around 30k per year (for the highest level of grant, which they've never gotten). Everything else comes out of the athlete's own pockets. Some (like David Malone, who won the gold at the Cairo World Cup in April), have to work two jobs to pay for that. Others (the Junior team, who took several individual medals in the British Open championships and who've beaten nearly all the international Junior teams), depend on their local clubs running table quizzes and the like, donations from their parents, and so on.

It's a half-assed way to fund a sport, it really is. And the bitch of it is, the guys who could really make a difference, the Sports Council (who are a seriously professional bunch and probably one of the best things to happen in sports administration in this country ever), don't get the funding they need, and so can't do what they know they need to in terms of supporting sport. And they get the blame when it all goes wrong. Typical Irish setup, really...

Imposter

Sparks wrote:

unless they have long-term established clubs they couldn't even apply. Not one target shooting club got a grant from this programme since it's inception...

Why not (on both points)?

How many members does The Irish Clay Pigeon Shooting Association have?

I'm not saying they shouldn't get more money or that our better sportspeople shouldn't get better support than they do currently, but every sport has to fund a large percentage of it's operations itself (This includes GAA, Rugby, Soccer etc..). If shooting is a particularly costly pasttime then it's going to cost the participants more than other sports.

Villain

ITS SIMPLE - Either the GAA Open croker for 4 to 5 years while Landsdowne is being redeveloped with funding from the government, or the GAA take the take the funding and Open croker full time.

Unpossible

depend on their local clubs running table quizzes and the like, donations from their parents, and so on.

in fairness ive seen GAA clubs have to raise money this way as well.


I think we could use the facilities, but it needs to be done properly ie quickly and cost effective. The government just seem to be throwing money at their friends and in the end we've spent millions and still don't even have construction underway (yes I am anti-FF).

Mighty_Mouse

ITS SIMPLE - Either the GAA Open croker for 4 to 5 years while Landsdowne is being redeveloped with funding from the government, or the GAA take the take the funding and Open croker full time.

c) GAA take money owed and promised to them given that they are THE most significant nationwide national sporting organisation and contribute significantly to Irish society, while at the sametime retaining the right to decide how their amateur/private organisation should be run.