Stadium Ireland Should it have been built??

Villain

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

c) GAA take money owed and promised to them given that they are THE most significant nationwide national sporting organisation and contribute significantly to Irish society, while at the sametime retaining the right to decide how their amateur/private organisation should be run.

Thats only a good deal for the GAA not the Irish people, Tax payers money should NOT be spent on a project that can only be used by one Organisation (or the odd concert or American Football game).

If tax payers money is to be used it has to be for the majority of people. The FAI and IRFU are happy to allow others use their ground. The GAA are being completely ignorant they wouldn't even allow a debate at their annual Meeting.

Big Ears

Imposter wrote:

I agree that the government should in general help out clubs looking to build the infrastructure within the club. However when it comes to soccer and even rugby clubs in Ireland I have the following questino. Are Shamrock rovers professional or even semi-pro? If so then why should their stadium be financed by the public when they seem to think they can afford to pay players? The GAA has the infrastructure it has in place, because it invested in it and communities, instead of deciding to pay players. Imo soccer in Ireland would be better now if it had done the same for the last 15 plus years.

But soccer and Rugby in this country had to turn pro to get to a decent level(Shams are semi-pro by the way) , because the best of Irish players are alll going abroad , and something had to be done to stop this , plyers are obviuosly going to play for a foreign club that pays them a healthy wage over an amateur club that dosen't pay them anything .

In Rugby this has worked as most Irish Internationels now play with one of the provinces , but in soccer it is much more dificult as Roy Keane and Damien Duff aren't going to go from their £100,000 a week plus Champions League football beyond the group stages pretty much every year to £2,000 a week at the most from a top side like Shels or Bohs and just Champs league qualifying or early round UEFA CUp .

But slowly things are improving (the move to a summer league seems to have worked) and players that would be in the lower English divisions or reserves at bigger clubs are now playing at home .

Some LOI players are getting capped by Ireland (although at the moment this is just like a reward for doing well in the Irish League and the players only earn one cap , well thats being the story so far )

But Wes Houlihan (of Shelbourne) was able to keep Andy Reid(of Notts Forest , and who has got a lot of interest from Prem clubs , Tottenham , to name just one who had a bid turned down) out of the Irish U 21 squad .

If we keep players like Houlihan , and get more players to come home the standard of Alan Moore(former Irish internationel with 8 caps , used to play for Middlesbrough and Burnley , and is only in his late 20's) then the league will start to grow in standard imensenly and we will eventually be keeping a lot of our best players at home .

I know Gaelic football has a small amount of players that leave for Aussie Rules but thats not a similar situation .
In the end Proffesionalism is working in Rugby and is slowly working in soccer .

Sparks

Imposter wrote:

Why not (on both points)?

They can't apply because only long-term established clubs have long-term leases or own their own land, new clubs tend to have short-term leases (or exist on an informal handshake-with-the-farmer basis) because land is bloody expensive. And we don't have a national facility that we could rent out to starting clubs to use until they get settled (if there was a facility in abbotstown, you could for example hire out the range for two hours each tuesday evening to the Rathmines Rifle Club and two hours each Wednesday to the Rathgar Rifle Club, and an hour every other day to the DIT rifle club and so on, until those clubs managed to get enough membership and funds to set up their own ranges).

And as to why they've never gotten a grant, there are reasons I can point to - not owning the land, not having a professionally prepared application, and so on - but I can't tell you exactly why not, because I've not seen the minutes of the Department committee making the decisions. I suspect it may not be wholly objective, mind, given the recent shenanigans in Kerry with the Grant programme, and in Donegal under the last Minister. The parish pump still holds a lot of influence in this country.

How many members does The Irish Clay Pigeon Shooting Association have?

I don't have that number - I'm in the National Target Shooting Association (we look after olympic rifle and pistol shooting, they look after olympic and non-olympic shotgun shooting), but my estimate would be somewhere over 20,000 people. Those are all participants, by the way, not spectators, but the vast majority wouldn't be competing in olympic disciplines. And then there are more clay pigeon shooters with the National Association of Regional Game Councils (they look after hunting amongst other things, but also run some nonolympic clay pigeon competitions). There are 230,000 licenced firearms in the Republic, don't forget, and while some people will hold more than one (I own two myself, a .22 rifle and an air rifle, both for olympic events), there are still somewhere north of 150,000 people with firearms in the state. And somewhere north of 100,000 people in the North (olympic target shooting is a 32-county body like rugby - in fact two of our three olympians have come from up North to represent us in smallbore, because due to better facilities, they have better shooters for that event).

If shooting is a particularly costly pasttime then it's going to cost the participants more than other sports.

Which sounds fine, until you realise that this means that the grants given out to support athletes with medal chances are discriminatory in that they're of less help to some sports than to others, purely dependant on the equipment costs of your sport. So if you run, your equipment costs are low compared to shooting (where capital equipment costs alone have run me personally to about seven thousand euros, and I'm not even a high-level shooter). That means you have more money from the grant left for subsistence, travel, and other such costs. That means more people can run than can shoot purely for financial reasons.

Which, from the medal-winning point of view (which is the point of view from which the grant scheme is administered), is a bad thing because we have a great advantage when we compete in target shooting, namely, we know there will be an even playing field. No drugs, no judges, no genetic variations. But we don't encourage target shooting. Or archery. Or the other sports where it's not how fast or strong you are that counts, but what level of mind-body control you have. And it's those sports - the control sports - that see our greatest promise through the likes of Derek Burnett, Dave Malone, Philip Murphy, Richard Stapleton, Liam Spillane and many others like them, all of whom have proven medal-winning ability, but who've never received the level of support that they truly need.

Imposter

Big Ears,
I agree with most of what you said but I think the FAI and the IRFU made a bad decision not to invest in stadiums first or as they were going professional. After all attendences is where most of your income should be coming from.

Sparks,
Again I agree about the elite competitors but with the start-ups would they not get a grant towards buying land to get started (yes I know it's expensive even with a grant). Also surely any facility in Campus Ireland would be mainly for the use of the elite sportspeople too?

How do you propose more funding is made available to these sports? Aside from the government giving sport in general more money how would it be allocated so as to be fair, or do you think the allocations are fair at the moment and it's just that not enough money is available? Also I didn't realise shooting had 20k plus members! I would imagine a lot of those firearms would be for hunting though?

Sparks

No Imposter, the grants programme specifically states that the grant may not be used to pay for land.

And a sports campus shooting facility would be large - at least thirty firing points for 50m, at least thirty for 10m, and similar levels for the olympic shotgun disciplines as well. So you could have elite athletes training at one end and regular joes just there to plink away for fun at the other end. You could even rope or wall off three or four firing points exclusively for elite training if you wanted. But in order to drive up the level of the elite shooters, you need a larger competitive base for the grassroots as well, which is where we want to be focussing for the next two to four years at least (which isn't to say we should stop training elite level shooters, just that we need to bring in more people, especially juniors, to the sport at this stage).

How do you propose more funding is made available to these sports? Aside from the government giving sport in general more money how would it be allocated so as to be fair, or do you think the allocations are fair at the moment and it's just that not enough money is available?

The carding grant amounts could stand to be increased, or seperated into seperate grants for equipment/training/travel and subsistence costs, or both.
The capital grants scheme could stand to see more involvement from the Sports Council rather than the Department of Sport. The terms regarding lease times and land ownership could be relaxed for new clubs, or small grant amounts (if you're asking for 5,000 euros for a new coat of paint and some new windows for a club, demanding a 25-year lease is a bit silly since that's longer than the objects bought by the grant are expected to last).
The total amount invested could stand to be increased somewhat, including the amount given to the NGBs for administrative work - many, if not most olympic NGBs in this country are all volunteer because we can't afford to hire anyone - and the amount required to buy a licence from the Sports Council for the use of the SportsHQ building in ParkWest could be looked at - since most of the money would be coming from the Sports Council grant to the NGB in the first place.
And the Government could just give the ISC and the OCI the money they need to do the job they're capable of doing - the ISC is being hamstrung by a lack of funding, especially after the SCI stadium became the Bertiebowl fiasco.

Also I didn't realise shooting had 20k plus members!

Target shooting is pretty much one of the largest participatory sports in the country, we're just one of the smallest from the spectator's point of view, and the media doesn't love us because there's rarely any spectacular photos to be taken. (No injuries since 1801 is a good thing for the shooters, but a bad thing for the media. Things have been improving of late, however with particular credit due to the Evening Herald's minority sports column by Lindie Naughton, as well as to the people in RTE Sports, so I'm hopeful for the future).

I would imagine a lot of those firearms would be for hunting though?

Of the 230,000 licenced firearms? Yes. Of the 20,000 people in the ICPSA, or the one to two thousand in the NTSA (we've been smaller than shotgun since our sport was gutted by the Department of Justice in 1972)? No, they'd all be target shooters. Hunters are in the NARGC, a different body. You might have some crossover, but such shooters wouldn't be the majority, and most would have seperate firearms for target shooting and hunting because the two tasks demand very different things from a rifle - you would be rather hard-pressed to hunt rabbits with my smallbore rifle, for example, because it's very heavy and unwieldy compared to a light hunting rifle.

Lennoxschips

I think the government should build two modern medium-sized 30,000 seater stadia - one in Cork and one in Limerick - that could be used for soccer, GAA and rugby. The GAA could only be allowed to use these new stadia if they agreed to open up Croke Park to soccer and rugby. They'd agree to it I think, because it would be a fair deal. All associations would benefit and not just in Dublin either.

As for the original poll, I don't see how a multi-billion euro Olympic stadium is going to make our athletes run any faster. A track is a track is a track, no matter how many seats are around it. Ireland hasn't done too bad in the Olympics anyway, look at Israel - they won their first ever gold medal today.

thejollyrodger

the fact that we havent won any medal at the olympics is a further example of the injustice sports are being done in Ireland. We should have a clay pigeon shooting team out there for a start with all the people who have shotguns in this nation. We were unlucky to not get to the final, only a professional training regime will right this wrong. Starting with grass roots and building it up.

I don't see how a multi-billion euro Olympic stadium is going to make our athletes run any faster. A track is a track is a track, no matter how many seats are around it.

you dont need seats around the facilites but the facilites have to be built. Having the seats there means we can hold national championships there etc. you cant have a world leading professional training set up in a bare bones 3rd world track in the bog.

We had a tiny number of athletes there in Greece and we should be entering as many competions as possible. Build the infastructure, make the funds available to athlethes and put in a world class training regime (like what the aussies did 20 years ago). Then we can be pround of our nation.

Imposter

Lennoxschips wrote:

I think the government should build two modern medium-sized 30,000 seater stadia - one in Cork and one in Limerick - that could be used for soccer, GAA and rugby. The GAA could only be allowed to use these new stadia if they agreed to open up Croke Park to soccer and rugby. They'd agree to it I think, because it would be a fair deal. All associations would benefit and not just in Dublin either.

That has to be one of the stupidest ideas I have heard on this issue. One stadium in Munster might be an idea but 2 is ridiculous. The GAA has just redeveloped a 50,000 (I think) stadium in Limerick and Pairc Ui Chaoimh in Cork holds around 30k (again I think) so they won't be too pushed on your very generous offer.

In Rugby, munster have but one team in Rugby, all the clubs have ok stadiums for their size at the moment. They are hardly likely to get much bigger but the provincial side may.

And finally Soccer. Why do they need such a stadium. Are Cork City, Cobh Ramblers or even Limerick City ever likely to require that sort of capacity? I think not, or at least not for a long time.

thejollyrodger

maybe there is a case for 1 stadium in munster, an all seater 30,000 seater + training pitches for rugby and soccer. The stadium could be shared by a couple E.L clubs (like Milan & Inter)since neither will have more than 15,000 supporters. The GAA could use it too but I dont think they would somehow. Even at that, it would be lying closed a lot of the time.

Flukey

thejollyrodger, the GAA has given a huge lot to this country in all sorts of ways, so it is not a case of the GAA getting a lot from the government with no return. Unlike the FAI and IRFU the GAA is amateur, but it is able to get things done. as they say the GAA is an amateur organisation run by professionals whereas the FAI is a professional organisation run by amateurs. Other sports are no more shafted than the GAA. Croke Park is there in its current form because the GAA got up and made it happen. No one asked them too. The money they got from the government was only a small proportion of what was needed. The rest came mainly from their own resources and members. The FAI is the problem. The FAI don't have their own stadium. That is not the GAA's fault, so why do they constantly get the flack over it all?

There is always this idea of GAA fans and Rugby fans and Soccers fans, as if they were different people. The people standing on Hill 16 one day are the same people on the West Stand another day. They are the same people. So there is no GAA People v Soccer People. They are for the most part the same people. GAA is my main thing, but I watch rugby and soccer and have been in Lansdowne to see both played.

The GAA doesn't have the kind of international profile or outlets that soccer and rugby have. That is a big advantage the FAI and IRFU have. Not many people outside of Ireland would have ever even heard of Croke Park, the GAA, Gaelic Football, Hurling etc. That is something the FAI and IRFU can tap into, that the GAA can't. They have two international sports wiht huge opportunities. The GAA is just a tiny organisation, that is plodding along unknown to the world. Yet they have been able to make a damn good job of it. The IRFU do well, but the FAI have shown time and time again their ability to shoot themselves in the foot. With a good FAI behind them our international soccer team could be in a far stronger position than it is. The Saipan debacle wasn't Roy Keane's fault and it wasn't Mick McCarthy's fault. It was the FAI's fault. Let the FAI clean up its own act and let the GAA and the IRFU to themselves instead of trying to bum off them and their facilities, when they could easily have their own. If Lansdowne joined in with Croke Park and said no to the FAI too, the FAI would not be long in building themselves a ground! Since they stopped using Dalymount, they have never done a thing with it. Instead of putting fans bums on seats in a stadium they have put executive bums on seats on airplanes. There is no reason why the GAA should and the IRFU should continue to bail them out. If they keep doing so, the FAI will never get its act together! It is time for the FAI to stand on their own 2 feet for a change.

The GAA have a stadium.
The IRFU have one which they are going to redevelop.
The FAI should get their own.

If your house was nicer than your neighbour's, would you want them to move in with you or get their own place renovated?

Probably more appropriately in this case, if some homeless guy, squatting in your neighbours house, thought you had a lovely house would you think he should move in with you or go and get his own place?

Your house is the GAA's place.
The IRFU are the neighbours who will improve their own house.
The FAI are the homeless guy and should go and get their own place!!!!!!

Big Ears

Lennoxschips wrote:

I think the government should build two modern medium-sized 30,000 seater stadia - one in Cork and one in Limerick - that could be used for soccer, GAA and rugby. The GAA could only be allowed to use these new stadia if they agreed to open up Croke Park to soccer and rugby. They'd agree to it I think, because it would be a fair deal. All associations would benefit and not just in Dublin either.

As for the original poll, I don't see how a multi-billion euro Olympic stadium is going to make our athletes run any faster. A track is a track is a track, no matter how many seats are around it. Ireland hasn't done too bad in the Olympics anyway, look at Israel - they won their first ever gold medal today.

Imposter dealed with this in the most part , but anyway .
Why do the GAA need a 30,000 seater stadium , when they have a 40,000 capacity in Parc í Caoimh(well not quite 40,000 but bordering on it) , a 53,000 + capacity stadium in Semple and a 50,000 capacity stadium in the Gaelic gorunds .

Cork City would struggle to fill a 30,000 stadium on a European night and Cobh Ramblers and Limerick City would struggle to break 4,000 for their biggest games .

Its too small for soccer or Rugby Internationels that aren't friendlies , although the perfect size for friendlies as when we are not playing Brazil or the Czech Republic attendance is usually in the low to mid 30's .

Munster want to develope both they're stadia , but they could only get 30,000 for Heiniken Cup games and these are all played in just Limerick and not Cork .

So why the hell does anyone really need two 30,000 all seater stadiums in Cork and Limrick .

We are mostly talking about the facilities in the stadium and not the seats in it .

Maybe a 20,000 all seater stadium(just the one) in Limerick , that could hold Atheletics and we could hold national athletic avents here .
Munster could play here , although they are looking for a slighly bigger stadium I think , and if Ireland lacks a stadium for soccer at the time , friendlies could be held here , with additionel extra seatinf bringing the stadium up to around the 28,000 mark , although with athletics being around there , would be a lot of room , and maybe a capacity of over 30,000 could be achieved with temporary seating .
If Cork City get to as big a European occasion as the Nantes game or bigger they could play here .

and thats still a huge maybe . :cool:

Mighty_Mouse

Thats only a good deal for the GAA not the Irish people, Tax payers money should NOT be spent on a project that can only be used by one Organisation (or the odd concert or American Football game).

Every tax payer can use Croke Park. Buy a ticket for the weekend matches!!
Again, you maintain that if an organisation receives funding from the government, that organisation has to follow whatever instructions the government have , both now and into the future!!! (even if at the time the government gave the loan "no strings attached")

Big Ears - I think the argument that professionalism has been good for both soccer and rugby in Ireland is flawed.
While both sporting codes might not of had much choice in relation to turning professional, most league of Ireland clubs are struggling desperately to make ends meet.

Specifically from articles I've read by people like Tony Ward etc club rugby (in its current format) is Ireland is dying a slow and painful death.

thejollyrodger

The GAA is just a tiny organisation, that is plodding along unknown to the world.

The GAA is the biggest organisation on this island. It has the most assets and the biggest fan base.

There may well be a few stadia down in Munster but most of them look substandard for the 21st century. At least one of them should get a major over haul to bring it to 30,000 seater for all sports with a roof.

Some matches we will have 80,000 people wanted to watch it .. eg Irish vs France/England in rugby or Ireland vs France in soccer. It makes finanical sense for everyone to play the game in the biggest ground available. The GAA might have a smaller match to play and may want to use 55,000 seats. I just think all stadia should be open to all sports.

Mighty_Mouse

I just think all stadia should be open to all sports.

And they probably will. Just as soon as you can refer to Irish sporting infrastructure as "all stadia". At the moment we have a singular stadium.

Hairy Homer

Flukey wrote:

There is no reason why the GAA should and the IRFU should continue to bail them out. If they keep doing so, the FAI will never get its act together! It is time for the FAI to stand on their own 2 feet for a change.

The GAA have a stadium.
The IRFU have one which they are going to redevelop.
The FAI should get their own.

If your house was nicer than your neighbour's, would you want them to move in with you or get their own place renovated?

Probably more appropriately in this case, if some homeless guy, squatting in your neighbours house, thought you had a lovely house would you think he should move in with you or go and get his own place?

Your house is the GAA's place.
The IRFU are the neighbours who will improve their own house.
The FAI are the homeless guy and should go and get their own place!!!!!!

Not a fair analogy. Should every beer drinker have their own pub? Should every sick person get their own hospital? There are certain expensive items of infrastructure that should be shared by the greatest number of people (for appropriate compensation to the owners of course) for maximum benefit.

Having a rule on your statute books that prohibits that is an offence to society.

Big Ears

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Big Ears - I think the argument that professionalism has been good for both soccer and rugby in Ireland is flawed.
While both sporting codes might not of had much choice in relation to turning professional, most league of Ireland clubs are struggling desperately to make ends meet.

Without proffesionalism the standard would not have gottena ny better but gotten worse , as result of British team taking players , and as a result of that there would be less fans of Rugby and Soccer at home , also leading to finniacial problems .
So which would you rather , a low standard with debt , or a fairly high standard getting higher with debt .

Although there are a lot of clubs sorting they're finniacial problems , so Proffessionalism seems to be working in a lot of ways .

Flukey

thejollrodger, the GAA is indeed the biggest sporting organisation in the country, but that is as far as it goes. The IRFU and FAI are part of international sports. Outside of Ireland, with the exception of Irish people, the GAA is practically unknown. Apart from tenuous links with Aussie Rules and Shinty, which result in a handful of games, it has no international outlets. The national sports of many countries have international outlets. So the FAI and the IRFU have options that the GAA can never have. In that sense they are plouging a fairly lonely furrow!


Homer, is it unreasonable to expect that one of the largest sporting organisations in the country should have a decent facility of its own? There is no reason why the FAI should not have had their own stadium years ago. The issue is not whether soccer or rugby should be played in Croke Park or not, but why doesn't the FAI have their own stadium? The Croke Park issue has been used to divert us from the real question: Why don't the FAI have their own stadium? The IRFU have one and the GAA have one. They both have gone out and looked after their own. But the FAI has never done that, preferring to effectively bum off the IRFU for years and, now that Lansdowne is no longer suitable, they want to use Croke Park. They should get their own stadium. I don't have a problem with them using Croke Park, but I do think they should have had their own facility.

As a good example, look at Dalymount Park, once the home of international soccer, left to rot as they moved to Lansdowne. Nothing has been done with it in years. Even some of the the GAA's poorest county facilities are better than it. 10 minutes up the road you have Croke Park, where the effort was made to put in a world class stadium. The FAI has done absolutely nothing to even help Bohemians to improve Dalymount. It certainly has the potential to have a lot done with it. All you have there is two stands and basically a pile of rubble at each end. I am not proposing it as a site for their main stadium, but as an example as how little the FAI have done to help out. It may be Boh's ground, but the FAI held fit to use it in the 70's but have not lifted a finger to improve it since.

We can have the debate forever as to whether Croke Park should be opened or not but the real problem lies with the FAI never bothering to build themselves a stadium. That is where all this really comes from!!!!

Mighty_Mouse

Big Ears wrote:

Without professionalism the standard would not have gottena ny better but gotten worse , as result of British team taking players

Ok, So they were forced into turning professional. I didn't dispute this.

and as a result of that there would be less fans of Rugby and Soccer at home, also leading to finniacial problems .

hmm? See your focusing on the big teams here. Ok Ireland national team is ok. But professionalism has not been good for Irish club rugby.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/10/12/story278508878.asp

http://www.rugby.ie/sixnations/sixnationsguide/donallenihan.asp#feb18

I'm not arguing that professionalism doesn't have some benefits. But it definitely has a lot of negatives.

ps. I take it we are discussing this in the context of the GAA? My argument is that the GAA should never turn professional. There is no motivation for it. Obviously soccer and rugby had to compete with foreign professional leagues but GAA doesn’t

Sparks

This thread does illustrate an important point - we started discussing Stadium Ireland and Campus Ireland and how they could help sport in Ireland - and we wound up talking only about the GAA, IRFU and FAI.
Oddly enough, that's exactly what happens to the money in Irish Sport as well - you start off with 110 million to give out in the year, and somehow "small minority sports" like archery and target shooting (which bring home medals) get 20,000 euro or so, while the GAA/FAI/IRFU get six and seven figure sums, if not more.

Big Ears

because there is more interest in them , and if the big sports wearn't getting the money they get there would be public outcry leading to the all important................................less votes for Fianna fail or whoever is in power at the time of this happening .

Do you honestly beleive that money should be taken from Soccer , Rugby and GAA to fund target shooting ? , try to answer this without a bias for you're favourite sport .

Im not in favour of turning GAA proffesionel , although I am in favour of expenses being paid , and that players that win the all-Ireland should be rewarded with a nice fee for doing so .

Sparks

Do you honestly beleive that money should be taken from Soccer , Rugby and GAA to fund target shooting ? , try to answer this without a bias for you're favourite sport .

Not just specifically target shooting (though I am biased towards it obviously), but minority sports in general - and I'm not alone, as Pat Hickey's comments lately have shown:

Remarkably, in a move certain to raise the ire of the Irish Amateur Athletics' Association, Hickey suggested that Ireland "should be concentrating on minority sports" at the Games.

"If the same money went into minority sports, we would get champions. It's getting virtually impossible to win track and field medals. Even big, Western countries like France and Germany are struggling.

"I'm not anti-track and field. That's a misconception. The most superb athlete in this squad, someone who hasn't asked for one thing, who has always been the best player and the best participant, is Sonia O'Sullivan. She is absolutely superb. I actually feel very sorry for the track and field people, because the standard is so difficult."

"Shooting was one of our best results here. Derek Burnett was superb, yet everyone forgets that."

Mighty_Mouse

Im not in favour of turning GAA proffesionel , although I am in favour of expenses being paid ,

they already do

and that players that win the all-Ireland should be rewarded with a nice fee for doing so

and this is not professionalism? Whats the motivation to introduce fees to how teams finish in the All-Ireland championship? Bad idea if you ask me. Do you think that players want to win an all-ireland for the fee reward or something?
ps
most teams get foreign holiday/plus all-stars trips exist etc

Lennoxschips

I don't know if any of you have been to Parc Ui Caoimh, but to call it a stadium is going a bit far. It's more of a hole in the ground with cement poured on top (which hasn't been renovated for three decades), which can hold 40,000 people if everyone stands very close together.

They could knock it and build a 30,000 seater stadium in its place, with the government paying all the costs, with the terms being that the GAA open up Croker.

There is no point of building a new stadium in Dublin if we already have Croke Park there, one of the best stadia in Europe. So we have to concentrate on persuading the GAA to open it up, but without intimidating them or forcing them. Helping them updgrade their stadia in other parts of the country with the government and other associations chipping in could persuade them to share their resources. It would also be a lot cheaper, because modern 30,000 seater stadia can be built in identikit form don't cost very much - 50 million euro max. That's a damn site cheaper than building another 80,000 seater in Dublin when we already have one there.

Why do the GAA need a 30,000 seater stadium , when they have a 40,000 capacity in Parc í Caoimh(well not quite 40,000 but bordering on it) , a 53,000 + capacity stadium in Semple and a 50,000 capacity stadium in the Gaelic gorunds .

Parc uí Caoimh only exceeds 30,000 for the major inter-county matches. (Perhaps twice a year) For most inter-county and club matches the stadium is half empty. Perhaps if the facilities were more up to scratch more people would be encouraged to go to these matches? Ditto Cork City and Munster if they were allowed to use the stadium.

Flukey

Turning professional would spoil Gaelic games. One of its strongest elements is players playing for the jersey, their familiy, friends, neighbours and the people of the county. Pay them expenses, certainly. Giving them something for winning, does not make it professional. A lot of players are happy with just having won an All-Ireland, for the reasons I've already mentioned. A winning captain's speech isn't in delight of a cash windfall. Listen to any one of those speeches and you'll see what it means to a player and his team to win and look at the crowd in front of the Hogan Stand and you'll see what it means to them.

Cork

thejollyrodger wrote:

In light of the shockingly poor performance of the Irish athelehes in Greece shouldn’t the Irish government pressed ahead with Stadium Ireland at abbotstown. The facilities in this country are at best 3rd world.
.

The government should have pressed ahead with Abbotstown and forgot about the moaning minnie brigade.

Sports Campus's work well in Austrailia. Look at the Oz preformance in Athens.

Thank Charlie McCreevy for the tax breaks he has given to the Irish blood stock industry.

But those people who favour developing Landsdowne Road have stayed pretty silent since the associated Asbestos problem has been discovered.

thejollyrodger

We can have the debate forever as to whether Croke Park should be opened or not but the real problem lies with the FAI never bothering to build themselves a stadium. That is where all this really comes from!!!!

Well they are underway as we speak, should be finished in 3-4 years. It would have been built years ago if it wasnt for the Government. Its the governements fault !! THEY ARE HOLDING BACK THE NATIONS DEVELOPMENT IN SPORT !!! remember that €60 million bribe to the GAA??

Cork

thejollyrodger wrote:

Its the governements fault !! THEY ARE HOLDING BACK THE NATIONS DEVELOPMENT IN SPORT !!! remember that €60 million bribe to the GAA??

I doubt if the FAI had the resources to complete a stadium.

But the idea of a campus with room for all sports had vision. Tarting up Landsdowne Road does little for the future. The recent Sunday Tribune asbestus story highlights the danger and time it will take to re-develop landsdowne road.

Sport should be a subject in school & college.

Big Ears

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

they already do


and this is not professionalism? Whats the motivation to introduce fees to how teams finish in the All-Ireland championship? Bad idea if you ask me. Do you think that players want to win an all-ireland for the fee reward or something?
ps
most teams get foreign holiday/plus all-stars trips exist etc

Not in all county's .
More like Semi-Proffesionalism , for one side(in each game) winning something , and its a once off unless they win it again .

All im saying is players miss-out on working if they are playing GAA , and especially the ones who have won the All-Ireland as they have worked more than most .
I just taught a small fee would be a nice reward for all the hard work , which actually causes them to lose money .

most teams get holidays ? , you mean big counties like Dublin or Cork and the smaller ones only when they win the All-Ireland .

Lennox better facilites is not going to get more fans to matches , if they only turn up because theres good facilities , then they're not real fans .

Proffesionalism would ruin the game(im not protesting that) , and could possibly help introduce things like transfer fees where players don't play for their county but their employer , and it could also bring in agents :eek: .

GAA is fine the way it is thank you .
Although one new thing I do like that is based on foreign sports , is group stages , that will be in Hurling next year .
Hurlings going to be realy exciting next year and will far outclass the football .

sceptre

Big Ears wrote:

Lennox better facilites is not going to get more fans to matches , if they only turn up because theres good facilities , then they're not real fans .

I'm not arguing the toss in any strong way either way but how's this for a scenario: Parent won't bring kids to GAA matches in Pairc Ui Chaoimh because the open stand isn't worth a damn when it rains and because of the stadium design an umbrella is pretty useless in the wind on that side, the toilet facilities are little better than pissing up against a concrete wall (have they improved since I last went in 1985?) and you have to queue for half an hour even for that with the result that the kid hasn't become part of the culture of going to the stadium and isn't all that used to supporting a winning Cork team except where they get off the train. (incidentally I'm drawing a possible scenario, not going through my childhood). Good facilities won't get people to turn up but a stadium that's falling apart and smells of tinkle may well keep them away. They realised this in the English leagues (including the lower-down ones, not just the Premiership) a long time ago.

Big Ears

toilet facilities are better , I think but I can't be sure .
Last time there was 2001 for me .

It seemed more than a decent place to me (and I had a terrace ticket) , although it was a beutiful summers day , with hurling to match . .
One of the hottest days of the year I beleive it was .