VRT to be abolished?

Kersh

Is there any truth in the government whisperings that vrt is to be abolished at the request of the EU. I first heard about this when McCreevy became the EU commisioner, and some laughed at how he would not abolish it when he was finance minister, and now he has to do something cos the EU are at him that vrt is against 'open market'.
Has anyone heard anything regarding this?

aodh_rua

There have been rumblings about it's iminent demise for a while now, mainly due to the EU problems you mention. The reason the government haven't done anything is the amount of money it generates for the state coffers. I think if they removed the vrt they'd need to add something like 2% to income tax.

Seth Brundle

They won't remove VRT from the tax system for two reasons - a) it brings in so much money for the exchequer and b) they can get away with it as the EU has no control over the tax laws in each country.
As long as both a) and b) remain then so will VRT!

Kersh

So there is no truth? Damn.

mike65

Here's a cheering piece from de paper

Motor tax could double under EU plan
By Seán McCárthaigh
MOTOR tax rates could increase by 100% under a reform of car taxation systems planned by the EU.

The European Commission has predicted that annual motor tax may increase dramatically in many EU countries, including Ireland, as it moves towards the introduction of "polluter pays" taxes and the abolition of other forms of vehicle taxation.

It estimates that the annual motor tax for a 1.4 litre car in Ireland, which costs €292 at present, could soar to €585 per annum over the next decade.

A working paper prepared by the Commission's directorate general on taxation in Brussels has also calculated that car-owners across Europe face varying increases in annual motor tax, ranging from 0% in Germany, France and Britain to over 1,300% in Portugal.


However, the predictions are based on just one of several options under consideration by Brussels.

EU leaders believe that higher annual motor tax rates will be necessary to compensate governments for the abolition of such taxes as the Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT).

A draft directive prepared by the Commission proposes:

The total abolition of VRT and similar taxes across Europe within a 10-year transitional period.

The immediate establishment of a VRT refund system to apply over the next decade.

The restructuring of existing car tax systems on a "polluter pays" basis.

In Ireland, average VRT is estimated at €3,737 per vehicle, even though it can add on €8,000 to the cost of a family saloon.

EU data published last week revealed that heavy taxes on cars are pushing Irish family car prices up to 50% above the EU average.

The European Commission has signalled that it wants to remove such obstacles to the functioning of the internal market in relation to the free movement of goods and services as well as boost the European car industry. It believes the reform of existing motor tax systems, including the abolition of VRT in Ireland, could lead to a 20% reduction in car prices.

Motoring and consumers' organisations have been long-term opponents of VRT on the basis that it represents a form of double taxation on people buying cheaper cars abroad and importing them into Ireland.

The Commission believes the removal of such taxes will help the price of new cars to converge.

It also maintains that such reforms are necessary in order to meet its environmental commitments on reducing the level of C02 emissions.

However, it is advising individual governments that they should not attempt to use the reforms to increase overall tax revenue.

Annual motor tax rates in Ireland have already increased by 5% over the past year. VRT contributes around €800 million to the Exchequer per annum, while all vehicle taxes account for over 10% of all Government revenue one of the highest levels within the EU.

The Commission has stressed that, under the proposed reforms, the tax burden should be related to usage rather than the cost of buying vehicles.

I say this as a low millage driver (in my own car) but I would stick it all on the price of fuel (VRT transfere/Annual Road Fund/3rd party insurance).

Mike.

Kersh

Christ, a motor tax raise....I already pay over a grand, and thats alternately taxin/using 2 3 litre cars. Dont know which I would prefer.

unkel

kbannon wrote:

b) they can get away with it as the EU has no control over the tax laws in each country.

No, the EU does have this control and as part of the common market all tariffs (read VRT) had to be abolished. The Irish government at the time requested an exception because they would have had severe difficulties with the budget. Since then they've gotton away with keeping this exceptional status

Ireland is not alone in this, e.g. the Netherlands have a very similar structure with BPM making new cars about the same price. Example:

New Mazda MX-5 1.6

Netherlands / Ireland €29k
Belgium €20k

Gurgle

mike65 wrote:

I say this as a low millage driver (in my own car) but I would stick it all on the price of fuel (VRT transfere/Annual Road Fund/3rd party insurance).

I agree, the current system is bullshìt.
As it is, we're paying road tax (car ownership tax), petrol tax, insurance is taxed at 21% as a luxory, the NCT tax (don't get me started), VRT etc. And of course, before we pay for all those things, we have paid PAYE and PRSI on the money.

And you have to pay the same if you drive 1000 miles per day or if you only use the car on a sunday morning to drive 2 miles to mass.

Add to that the total lunacy of charging over 3 times as much for road tax on a 2L(€539) car as a 1L(€151).

It doesn't make a big difference in the city if you have a 1L or a 2L car but for the rest of us the roads in the country are in such shìt that you would rattle a small car to bits in the course of a couple of years.

But the reason is simple - Get the people to pay for the roads so that the corporations can use them.

silverside

It doesnt seem unreasonable to me to put it on fuel. Rough calculation says another 40c tax on a litre of fuel would bring in 500 euro per car p.a. which would just about make up for the VRT loss.

I like VRT though because it means anyone who buys an expensive luxury car like a BMW effectively subsidizes the rest of us who drive around in cheaper cars. A progressive tax if you like.

Kersh

Sorry to disagree, but since when did being able to afford luxury cars/items, or being unfortunate enough to be well off...give reason to take it up the ass tax wise. I dont want to drive around in a **** cheap car, but Im not rich, just an avid car fan, so why should I be penalised.

Borzoi

Of course the elimination of VRT will cause a corresponding drop in the prices of second hand cars, so anyone selling or trading in may not see that great a benefit

Kersh

But for those of us that have our eye on monster cars from UK...it would be great.

Corben Dallas

"There have been rumblings about it's iminent demise for a while now, mainly due to the EU problems you mention. The reason the government haven't done anything is the amount of money it generates for the state coffers. I think if they removed the vrt they'd need to add something like 2% to income tax."
Aodh_Rua
There will be no substitue (or direct Replacement)Tax for this when it goes, and go it will. If the Irish Govn is still thinking about not getting rid then the EU should just fine the Irish Govn. for an illegal anti competition tax.

So what if they drop 2%, they were ripping us off in even getting the 2% from the car driving public in this first place.

"I like VRT though because it means anyone who buys an expensive luxury car like a BMW effectively subsidizes the rest of us who drive around in cheaper cars. A progressive tax if you like."
Silverside

This is classic Irish Begrudger speak here folks, like "look @ yer man in his shiny new Beemer is it?......well i'll show him" etc. I thought Ireland had progessed from being a 'nation of knockers' that despises any successful individual because they've got ahead in life and got a nice car.
Or maybe u just like paying 20-30% (even for a small car) more than car buyers in the UK for EXACTLY the same car.

Mercedes, Audi and BMW should just refuse to supply anymore new Government State Cars (that Ministers are so fond of) until the Irish Govn drops VRT, that would sort it out pretty quickly.

END the illegal VRT NOW! :mad:

dahamsta

Kersh wrote:

Sorry to disagree, but since when did being able to afford luxury cars/items, or being unfortunate enough to be well off...give reason to take it up the ass tax wise. I dont want to drive around in a **** cheap car, but Im not rich, just an avid car fan, so why should I be penalised.

I'm not rich either, and like you I have (what I consider to be) a nice car because I don't want to drive around in the same tat as everyone else. However tax systems don't see people like us and twats that drive Mercs for the sake of driving Mercs any differently, and to be perfectly frank I think I'd prefer them to address much more pressing issues with the system before they go near that.

Ultimately though, you bought your nice motor out of "spare cash", and I think that people should accept that if they have spare cash, that cash should be taxed at a higher rate if we're going to have any kind of fair and equitable socciety. Of course the stepped system we have now is absolute rubbish, but that's another matter entirely...

adam

JohnBoy

mike65 wrote:

I say this as a low millage driver (in my own car) but I would stick it all on the price of fuel (VRT transfere/Annual Road Fund/3rd party insurance).
Mike.

mike, trucks run on diesel too.

lots of it. and if the price of diesel rises then so does the cost of transporting everything else you buy every day.

everything.

if, on the other hand you only want to uber-tax petrol then sound.

I'm drinkin from the black pump anyway.

Victor

Gurgle wrote:

insurance is taxed at 21% as a luxory

There is no VAT on insurance. The 2% insurance levy is on all insurance.

Gurgle wrote:

before we pay for all those things, we have paid PAYE and PRSI on the money..

But everyone else also pays them, what makes *you* special?

Corben Dallas wrote:

There will be no substitue (or direct Replacement)Tax for this when it goes, and go it will. If the Irish Govn is still thinking about not getting rid then the EU should just fine the Irish Govn. for an illegal anti competition tax.

There would be a substitute - from the article the suggestion is that it would be with a fuel / carbon tax.

Corben Dallas wrote:

So what if they drop 2%, they were ripping us off in even getting the 2% from the car driving public in this first place.

The comparison is for an increase, not decrease, in income tax to fund the loss of VRT.

Kersh

I didnt buy it out of spare cash, I got a 20000 personal loan, cos a house is so far out of reach. Do home owners pay 30% tax on their house price+tax?, no, then I shouldnt either. If houses were cheaper, or I could afford a mortgage I would have one, the fact I have a nice car cos I cant get a house doesnt mean I should be taxed twice on what I want to buy.

dahamsta

Kersh wrote:

I didnt buy it out of spare cash, I got a 20000 personal loan, cos a house is so far out of reach.

I can't get a house either, and I bought my car out of a loan too. I still consider it a luxury, because I could have gotten a perfectly good car for €1000 or even less. Could you? If your answer is yes, it's a luxury, and that loan was spare cash.

adam

mike65

JohnBoy wrote:

mike, trucks run on diesel too.

lots of it. and if the price of diesel rises then so does the cost of transporting everything else you buy every day.

everything.

if, on the other hand you only want to uber-tax petrol then sound.

I'm drinkin from the black pump anyway.

Yeah I was thinking about that earlier, commercial vehicles would need to be able to get a rebate from the government based on millage once registered for business use (something in conjunction with the annual DOE test perhaps).

Mike.

Victor

mike65 wrote:

Yeah I was thinking about that earlier, commercial vehicles would need to be able to get a rebate from the government based on millage once registered for business use (something in conjunction with the annual DOE test perhaps).

I don't think you can write off VAT on vehicles and fuel (and a few other things) at the moment, they would sooner allow the rebate on VAT.

Kaskade

what do you mean the cars cost 20-30% more here than in the uk?

They cost WAY more here. Check out the prices, from experience you take the sterling price, double it and add on another bit and they you get the euro price.

Eg honda S2000
- UK - €26,513 - €39,396 at todays exchange rates
- Ireland - €60,795 - but I got quoted €62000+ in a dealer

that makes the car 54% more expensive in Ireland

Eg Ford StreetKa
- UK - €13.960 - €20,743
- Ireland - €28,395


37% more expensive in Ireland.

The examples just go on and on. I hate the way we get so ripped off. When I brought me car in from Japan the cost of the car doubled as a result of auction fees, shipping, customs, VAT and VRT. I had to pay €8000 VRT. The other thing that kills me is that they charge you VAT on customs duty?!?!?!

Victor

Kaskade wrote:

The other thing that kills me is that they charge you VAT on customs duty?!?!?!

They could of course just up the VAT rate. :rolleyes:

Kaskade

Victor wrote:

They could of course just up the VAT rate. :rolleyes:

please no, they charge you so bloody much already they couldn't increase anything.

I mean you have to pay customs and VAT on the cost of the shipping. Its not a bloody tangible product?

Then there is the whole crack of how they calculate the VRT. They ask you if the car is standard spec, but then they charge extra for aircon, alloys, leather etc even though they are the standard spec. Also the car has to be driving to clear it, so if you bring in a crashed car they wont give you cheaper VRT cos the car is wrecked, you have to get it fixed and then pay the full VRT for a mint car!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Tommy Vercetti

Kaskade wrote:

what do you mean the cars cost 20-30% more here than in the uk?

They cost WAY more here. Check out the prices, from experience you take the sterling price, double it and add on another bit and they you get the euro price.

Eg honda S2000
- UK - €26,513 - €39,396 at todays exchange rates
- Ireland - €60,795 - but I got quoted €62000+ in a dealer

that makes the car 54% more expensive in Ireland

Eg Ford StreetKa
- UK - €13.960 - €20,743
- Ireland - €28,395


37% more expensive in Ireland.

The examples just go on and on. I hate the way we get so ripped off. When I brought me car in from Japan the cost of the car doubled as a result of auction fees, shipping, customs, VAT and VRT. I had to pay €8000 VRT. The other thing that kills me is that they charge you VAT on customs duty?!?!?!

A lot of those price differences are down to the dealer/distributors. Honda wouldn't sell any more S2000s if they were priced at €50k. Same with Porsche and so on. Anyone who buys a streetka deserves to be ripped off for looking like a twat.

Seth Brundle

Aren't many manufacturers standardising the price of the cars themselves now so that there is no pre-tax price differences accross the EMU - any forecourt price differences are down to both the tax rates and possibly the dealers. IIRC BMW, Merc & Mazda are doing this.

Assuming Im correct, then Ireland's car prices will be even more higher than the EU average as it was said that many manufacturers used to sell the cars cheaper to high tax countries so that the forecourt price was relatively similar

unkel

kbannon wrote:

Aren't many manufacturers standardising the price of the cars themselves now so that there is no pre-tax price differences accross the EMU - any forecourt price differences are down to both the tax rates and possibly the dealers. IIRC BMW, Merc & Mazda are doing this.

Assuming Im correct, then Ireland's car prices will be even more higher than the EU average as it was said that many manufacturers used to sell the cars cheaper to high tax countries so that the forecourt price was relatively similar

Exactly, that's why prices in Ireland went up recently

The fact that pre-tax prices were very low in Ireland and the Netherlands before made a lot of British people import their car from those countries

Kersh

I dont buy this bollox that a nice car is a luxury, and so should be taxed higher. I bet most people on these boards would have something to moan about if the price of a pint got 21% vat thrown on it and then 30% luxury tax on that total. So you go into a pub, pay 4.50 for a pint and then pay your taxes. I know the barman already payed vat but its a luxury, so bend over, pay your luxury tax and take it.

Andrew Duffy

Just a quick point - it was mentioned that replacing VRT with extra fuel taxes would affect the cost of road freight - this is a good thing. Trucks cause pretty much 100% of the damage to road surfaces and a large amount (anyone know how much?) of the need to build new roads, yet pay a pittance for it. Discouraging road freight and encouraging rail freight is a good thing for private motorists, road public transport users and rail public transport users.

dcGT

Andrew Duffy wrote:

Just a quick point - it was mentioned that replacing VRT with extra fuel taxes would affect the cost of road freight - this is a good thing. Trucks cause pretty much 100% of the damage to road surfaces and a large amount (anyone know how much?) of the need to build new roads, yet pay a pittance for it.

This is an interesting point. Increasing the cost of road freight would mean that the price of almost everything we buy in shops would increase would it not? After all, most goods have to travel by road at some stage, and the hauliers are hardly going to absorb the increased costs. I suppose the government could reduce the fuel tax for hauliers to prevent this though? If not though, it could mean more inflation.

DC.

dcGT

Kersh wrote:

I dont buy this bollox that a nice car is a luxury, and so should be taxed higher. I bet most people on these boards would have something to moan about if the price of a pint got 21% vat thrown on it and then 30% luxury tax on that total. So you go into a pub, pay 4.50 for a pint and then pay your taxes. I know the barman already payed vat but its a luxury, so bend over, pay your luxury tax and take it.

I agree, this country is a joke when it comes to owning a car with an engine bigger than a washing machine motor. Also, I wonder how much of the motor tax, VRT and fuel tax goes back into the roads/environmental strategies etc. :rolleyes:

The fact is, drinking beer doesn't cause damage to the environment like a car's engine does, and that's what I thought was supposed to be the reason for the tax - environmental damage (this idea is grossly exploited by the Irish government in my opinion). The basic idea is that a bigger engine produces more CO2 emissions. I think the UK have come up with a very good plan, where, the car is taxed based on its CO2 emissions (from it's manufacturers specs). By doing this and taxing fuel to a fair degree, it would be a true 'polluter pays' system. In other words, you can more easily afford a nice/big car IF it's emissions (damage to the environment) are minimal.

DC.

Kersh

Not really true, cos a 1 litre 1989 micra pollutes more than a 2002 bmw 750i, cos new cars have better emmissions equipment. So by todays system the guy in the 750i pays more, yet the ****box micra pollutes more. Road tax is not a pollution tax. It has never been passed as such.
Back to my point about the drink... drink is a luxury, my point was that people would complain if their drink was taxed the way my car is. both when I initially buy it, and pay yearly road tax.
I would love to see car tax rates put on alcohol. Thei government would be overthrown. :cool: :cool: