You've got AA... what do you do?

DeVore

This hand happened in the BSOP final last night. I think its a very interesting hand. Those of you who saw it please dont ruin it as a conundrum for the others!

You are in earlish position more or less at the start of the game. Roughly even stacks. Its folded to you and you look down and see Aces. The blinds are 25/50 and you make it 250 to play. One caller.

Flop comes KJ6, two of them are diamonds and one is a heart.

You bet 800 and are called. The turn comes the six of hearts.
You check and your opponent goes all in for 1700 more.

What would you do?

Answer:

I folded the aces. It really hurt me in the tournie to do it but I think it was the right choice. As it turns out, Whiteshadow had K7 of diamonds so I had him beat. *shrug*... Looking back on it, my check on the turn may be a mistake but I've put 1000+ into this pot already and all indications are that my opponent has a big hand and has hit something too. WS calling my raise and my 800 bet led me to believe that he had a bigger hand then he did and I out-thought myself...

DeV.

karlh

laugh.

Hyzepher

I think he probably has Kx with the way he is betting - your check on the turn left it open for him to think he had the best hand - maybe he had a flush draw to boot but I would of thought he would have raised your 800 if he did. Of course there is also the possibility of him have a small pocket pair that hit or gave him the impression that he was winning. But I would again thought a reraise on the flop would have been his play there.

Once that turn card came and the diamonds missed you should have went all-in or at least bet big - your check was the turning point

Hyzepher

GoneShootin

Its a tough one alright, because your always worrying about that flush. It would seem that when you called the 800, and he called it, that he was chasing diamonds, seeing as how there was 2 in the flop. Then when the 2nd heart popped out you checked and he tried to force it his way. All in on a suit V suit situation is risky. What suits were your aces ?

Anyway, I think I would have gone for it. I wouldnt mind loosing it as long as there was still time to "top up".

Great game is Texas Holdem

karlh

seriously though. was thinking about it....

honestly, if i had AA and that flop came down and he'd called an 800 bet, I'd be all in on the turn.

very unlikely he would flat call with 2 pair, which is what you were afraid of on the turn (KJ)

i'd probalby put him on top pair with a decent kicker. unless he has played KJ strangely, you're ok.

Should be a big enough bet to scare off flush draws too

gerire

He's playing with kx as Hyzepher says, he thinks he is miles ahead, prob putting you on a high numbered pair

DapperGent

I'd call. It looks like a bluff on a pair of jacks or less possibly a bet on paired king.

I think the check on the turn is poor. It's saying to your opponent that you are no longer happy with your hand and that a good bet from him will take it. If you were still happy with your hand you'd be betting to get value or to make a flush draw prohibitively expensive. In a lot of ways you are intimating that you believe your opponent could have called the preflop raise with a six in his hand and also that he could have called your flop bet with bottom pair. He's obliged your suspicions by going all in.

I'd be thinking that he can't have a six. He can't have called a preflop raise of 5x the BB with x6, maybe not even 66. Maybe, just maybe A6 suited perhaps diamonds or hearts.

The hand I'd really be afraid of is KJ, but I think he'd have reraised you on the flop with obvious flush and straight draws. In this eventuality you have him over a barrel anyway as you now have a bigger two-pair.

Yeah I'd call. You checked on the turn to trap I think (still a poor move I reckon, the pots big enough to be worth taking down then and there) and you got what you wanted. Bang those chips in!

Marq

I'm all in on the turn, no matter what. He doesn't have trips (only a fool would play an unpaired six to a 5xBlinds raise. His calling suggests a king with a medium kicker but even if he has Kojac now you've got him beat. Get rid of those flush draws, get your chips in. Why check? checking in this situation is just asking your opponent to put the (tough) decision back on you. Remember: even if he has a pair if you were both all-in before the flop comes down you'd be miles ahead. The odds don't change just cos the cards aren't turned over - there's still an eighty percent chance that you're ahead. There is only plausible hand that's beating you (jacks) -GET THOSE FÚCKING CHIPS IN THE CENTRE!

Spiritus

I'd tell Karl to stop laughing (and or goading me to drop the hand).

And then I'd fold. I mean call.

DapperGent

karlh wrote:

very unlikely he would flat call with 2 pair, which is what you were afraid of on the turn (KJ)

i'd probalby put him on top pair with a decent kicker. unless he has played KJ strangely, you're ok.

The turn has him beating KJ.

DeVore

I hated this hand, I really really hated it. I was under a lot of pressure and felt I had played it wrong. I couldnt stop thinking of JJ or KK... though mostly JJ. I too didnt put him on anything with a 6 in it after he calls my pre flop raise and post flop raise. I honestly played poorly because of the fact that I wanted to do well in the BSOP.
(it didnt help that later on Norman came by and stood behind me to heckle me. Thanks, thats all I needed but if I'd snapped at him or ordered him to get lost I would have been more flustered then just turning a deaf ear to him!).
Looking back I should have called but that early on in the competition (and with an empty chair still in ) I wanted to play conservatively to get as many points as I could (4 in the end which isnt great but isnt too bad either).

DeV.

karlh

DapperGent wrote:

The turn has him beating KJ.

Holy crap you're right! Tom what the HELL were you thinking!?

seriously didnt think bout that.

6 not a possibility so as it was pointed out, only JJJ to be afraid of......even tho i'd imagine a reraise with those preflop would be likely since they are so hard to play.

Hectorjelly

DapperGent wrote:

I think the check on the turn is poor

I actually think the check on the turn is a good move, provided you call the bet! Remember, if you induce a bluff, you need to be prepared to call. JJ is the only hand you would be worried about here, but why would he go all in once he just turned trips into a full house!


Edited for clarity!

Iago

DeVore wrote:

I honestly played poorly because of the fact that I wanted to do well in the BSOP.
I wanted to play conservatively to get as many points as I could (4 in the end which isnt great but isnt too bad either).

DeV.

and there's your problem, you remember your story about the 5 guys from cork "just pieces on a board" you were more concerned with not going out to an empty seat than playing the hand as you normally would...

Personally I just viewed the seat as a very tight player, we've all had nights were we've spent half an hour or an hour mucking cards and waiting for an opportunity, there was no difference..

I'd of gone all-in on the turn and forced him to make a decision...

DeVore

yeah, yer probably right Iago. I havent played anything like I can in the BSOP's simply because I feel heavily under pressure (ie: if I dont make the final or I go out first etc...). Its weird because I've won a decent number of home games with the regulars here so I guess I'm not a muppet player but damn it if I dont seem to have cursed myself when it comes to the BSOP. Typical...lol!!
After that hand I tightened up and played my dwindling stack better I thought, but it was always going to be in the lap of the gods and only a case of outlasting a few people (sorry Muso, but I figured you for a pair and needed your chips and the extra point you represented to me!!).

DeV.

Iago

you have to wonder as well as to what he has...

If I have KK and I'm facing a raise of 250 preflop, I'm reraising. If you have Ax I don't want to give you the chance to hit that A, same if you're raising with a low pair, all you can be ahead with is AA..

If I have JJ I'm doing the exact same, and for the same reasons, if you call my reraise then I'm worried about what the flop is going to bring, but in neither case is calling a good move...

If I have 66 I might call, 250 isn't a great deal early on in comparison to my stack and I can afford to see the flop. Odds are that I would probably throw it away though, depends on the night.

When the flop comes down and you bet 800 and he only calls, I rule out 66 because if you've hit your set you have to bet big, again calling does you no favours, if your chasing a flush draw or have a higher pair or even AQ for the straight then I'm just giving you a chance to hit. If I reraise it should take you off the pot or confirm that you've hit a set as well..

If I have the 66 and hit the turn then I'm giving you a free card in the hope of trapping you on the river...I'm not betting all-in with quads!

That's what I was thinking at the time, might not make a lot sense but then nothing I say ever does

Hectorjelly

Iago wrote:

I'd of gone all-in on the turn and forced him to make a decision...

This is terrible advice

Iago

Hectorjelly wrote:

This is terrible advice

Cheers

my point is that I couldn't see him having better than my 2 pair A's high, maybe all-in is too big a bet, but Dev's stack was quite small (about 1,825) and whiteshadow had already commited over 1,000 to the pot, the only bet likely to take him off if he's on a flush draw is all-in...and if he has 2 pair then you're ahead anyway..

DeVore

If I made a mistake (and I'm not sure that I did, hindsight is 20-20 afterall) it was not betting more on the flop. However it just seemed to me to be too mechanical: You get aces, you make a multiple of the BB bet, when the flop comes down you go all in. You are a robot. You do not consider the flop. All flesh must die. etc etc

That just seems like too unthinking a way to play AA... I agree with HJ that it would have been a nice move to check-reraise on the turn but frankly I bottled it and decided that discretion was the better part of valour and live to fight another day...

DeV.

mewso

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but even Whitesdhadow will admit this. He called raises with some very dodgy hands during the game. Unfortunately Tom wasn't to know this as it was early on but if he had then A6 for example would not be out of the question meaning WS could have hit trips.

DapperGent

Hectorjelly wrote:

I actually think the check on the turn is a good move, provided you call the bet! Remember, if you induce a bluff, you need to be prepared to call. JJ is the only hand you would be worried about here, but why would he go all in once he just turned trips into a full house!

If it's check to trap he has to call.

Personally I wouldn't be checking here. I'd be putting myself ahead for sure but I would be worried about an open ended straight draw, perhaps with a flush draw to call the original 800. Qd10d would need to bet into heavily to fold it and I'd be glad for it to be gone.

The pot is good enough for me as it stands, I'd bet it heavy and be happy with the fold. Gives me a more than healthy stack early in a SST.

Hectorjelly

Iago wrote:

Cheers

my point is that I couldn't see him having better than my 2 pair A's high, maybe all-in is too big a bet, but Dev's stack was quite small (about 1,825) and whiteshadow had already commited over 1,000 to the pot, the only bet likely to take him off if he's on a flush draw is all-in...and if he has 2 pair then you're ahead anyway..

There are several reasons why its terrible,

Tom here is obviously worried about a monster hand, & if hes right then his opponent isnt going to fold it. If Tom has decided that he is committed to the hand, then raising all in here gives his opponent a chance to fold all hands that Tom beats, but will call with all hands that are beating him. Checking, or betting small (ish) gives the opponent a chance to make a significant mistake, (for example bluffing, or betting a K).

Iago

I agree with your points hector, I suppose what I'm getting at is that I wouldn't have put him on a monster hand and betting small or checking lets him keep chasing his flush or straight draw...

my raising significantly your opponent has to throw away his drawing hand, and even if he has hit two pair he has to be considering whether you have trips or better as well. He may well think you're bluffing and call you, but that's the chance you take.

I think I would have made a signifcant bet (if not an all-in bet) if I was in the same position in the same circumstances...but as Tom said hindsight is a wonderful thing...as it was I just got to sit there and watch it unfold

Lafortezza

DeVore wrote:

I havent played anything like I can in the BSOP's simply because I feel heavily under pressure (ie: if I dont make the final or I go out first etc...). Its weird because I've won a decent number of home games with the regulars here so I guess I'm not a muppet player but damn it if I dont seem to have cursed myself when it comes to the BSOP.

You think too much in the bsop compared to normal fitz games. You give too much respect to everyone elses play and you start to doubt your own hand. You start imagining that he has a monster and that you're getting sucked in.
I used to be a bit like that in the last few months, its a bit like the fear article you wrote on suited aces. You need to disrespect our play a bit more!

gerire

I used to be a bit like that in the last few months, its a bit like the fear article you wrote on suited aces. You need to disrespect our play a bit more!

/me gets ready to suck dev in next time....

DeVore

I bet 250 preflop with the BB at 50. I bet 800 (!) into a pot that *totaled* 575. He calls both of them. Flat calls. I dont put him on a drawing hand. Now, how would you play Jacks if you flopped a set and you're opponent bets into you heavily? Personally I'd put on my best De Niro outfit, go into the tank and then crying call, waiting for the next round of betting. He doesnt put me on a flush draw so I'd certainly be putting me on two big cards (either AA or AK in the situation). I mean, its classic Aces play, big-pre-flop raise, BIG bet on the flop enough to kill any drawing hand and he's still there.

What would you put him on? A flush draw when the betting is that heavy? What do you put him on when no card comes on the turn for his flush or straight and he refuses a free card in favour of an all-in? Can you honestly say those are the actions of a draw?

DeV.

Hyzepher

It depends on whether he thinks that way - not all players have that type of game. He could just as easily been on KQ, AK, AJ, KJ etc. Some people will bet on how their card interact with the board and ignore the possibilities of other hands.

I think you did the right thing - afterall staying in the tournament is priority 1

Hyzepher

whiteshadow

okay at last im going to comment on this.

Dev, i honestly don't know if i would have been able to fold the aces.
So glad obviously you did, but my actions did indicate that i had a bit of a monster. Im going to try and explain why i did what i did.

Firstly. It's early in the tournament. I can call 250 without it hurting me much.
My general tactic is that if i play loose at the start and show off a few of my 'bad' calls it will get me some callers later in the tournament when i tighten up. That's why i was there for the flop.

When it came it wan't wholey disagreable. Top pair and gutshot flush draw. It was here i made my decision to call whatever bet you made and call it quickly without hesitation*.

The fact that i called so quickly obviously got you thinking and you shut down by checking into me. There's no better way to push an skilled and experienced (would have to be) player off a flop than by flat calling, flat calling again and then going all-in.

Also because it's so early in the tournament and because survival is your number one priority at this stage i was fairly confident that an overly agressive play could work.

*Obviously had you gone all in on the turn i would have been out of there.

-but had you made a small sized bet maybe i would have stayed around to see what the river brought. Had i checked and taken the free card it would be obvious that i was drawing to something whereas i figured that if i go all in because it is so early in the tournament you've got to have the fear.

When i did go all in and you were thinking for what seemed like an age all i kept thinking to myself was 2 jacks, 2jacks, 2jacks... as if trying to send the message across! Then when i added out loud that i'd show you my cards after the hand was over gave me a bit more credibility i think. It was like i was holding something that i wanted to show off! like a made house.

All of this combined with the fact that i was going to another home game, that had already started, as soon as i finished put me on a bit of a kamikaze style of play... some buzz

It was either really bad play by me or really good.
or maybe a little bit of both!

whiteshadow.

Hectorjelly

Hyzepher wrote:

I think you did the right thing - afterall staying in the tournament is priority 1

Winning should be your no1 priority!

Hyzepher

Not at that stage of the game - priorities change - one of the main objectives of the BSOP is to gain as many points as possible, jeopardising your stack early on is just foolish.

If you were to enter every tournament with the priority of winning then you tend to take more risks as amassing chips is your goal. If your priority is to make the final table - for instance - then you will play differently. Then by reaching the final table you may change your priority to a winning one.

Hyzepher

Aces Suited

Very interesting thread guys.

Most of the strategies above are reasonable and will work in various situations. None of them will work in all situations, your opponents are always different and will always react differently.

I've never really considered how to play AA as I don't play the cards I play the people. :cool: