Carear polititions

MucFluck

I don't think it's possible to have a good politition, how can they be looking out for our best interests when it could damage their carear? I think the hole damn system is one big, "evil fat bastard machine". Even if I find a politition I like I know that voting for him is going to turn him into another one of them because if he wants to make a difference he has to play the game for a while and by the time he's in a position to make a change he's gone to far down that road and wouldn't risk what he has for the better good.

Polititions are now out of the reach of the common person now anyway they hang around the rich, go to dinner with them and end up becoming their friends of course the polititions will look out for them at the expense of the general public.


IMO ministers should be hired by the elected government to do the important jobs. They would be trained and good at what they do and the whole system wouldn't be in chaos with a change of leadership. It would also be easier to fire a bad employee.

grumpytrousers

I've said it before, I'll say it again - Benevolent Dictatorship is the only way to go. I can see there would be one or two problems with it that would need to be ironed out, but honestly, if you thought you could trust one person (maybe with a few advisors) who weren't in hock to ANYBODY, wouldn't it be better.

Mind you, dunno who'd I'd trust to do it. Anybody who voices a desire to go for it sort of marks themselves as a power hungry megalomaniac. Where's ol' space_invaders2004 when you need him...

MucFluck

So there is no point in me voting. I'll ether be voting for a nob or creating a nob.

mycroft

I don't think it's possible to have a good politition, how can they be looking out for our best interests when it could damage their carear? I think the hole damn system is one big, "evil fat bastard machine". Even if I find a politition I like I know that voting for him is going to turn him into another one of them because if he wants to make a difference he has to play the game for a while and by the time he's in a position to make a change he's gone to far down that road and wouldn't risk what he has for the better good.

Thats a nice broad sweeping generalisation.

Polititions are now out of the reach of the common person now anyway they hang around the rich, go to dinner with them and end up becoming their friends of course the polititions will look out for them at the expense of the general public.

One could point out Joe Higgins, who gives everything barring €19,000 of his TD salary to his party and donated his government car and driver to his consituents where it ferries around eldery and disabled members of the community.

Or how about Jimmy Carter. The last decent US president, when he's not building homes for the homeless, he's supervising elections for the UN.

IMO ministers should be hired by the elected government to do the important jobs. They would be trained and good at what they do and the whole system wouldn't be in chaos with a change of leadership. It would also be easier to fire a bad employee.

We already do, sort of. We call them civil servants, bloody difficult to fire though.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - Benevolent Dictatorship is the only way to go. I can see there would be one or two problems with it that would need to be ironed out, but honestly, if you thought you could trust one person (maybe with a few advisors) who weren't in hock to ANYBODY, wouldn't it be better.

The phrase "Benevolent Dictatorship" is an oxymoron.

It's impossible to have a dictatorship which does not suffer from cyronism, corruption, and waste. To suggest that a dictator could be selected who will be alturistic and impartial and wise and fair is as far fetched and Sci Fi as a true Anarcho Syndicalist society.

grumpytrousers

The phrase "Benevolent Dictatorship" is an oxymoron.

I'm sorry - perhaps from where you're seated you couldn't see my tongue semi-planted in cheek...:D i.e if I thought such a thing *could* work, I'd seriously advocate it, but as I don't, I only advocate it for the larf...

Good points you make, and indeed honorable mentions for Jimmy C (building homes, nobel Prize, rarely called a c***) and Joe H, but I think that they're both minorities. I mean - for the love of God, I don't think in this day and age we can talk about political integrity and look to the American system where companies are unashamed of their 'donations'

Re Civil Servants. Erm - I'm no expert, and I realise you shouldn't believe everything you see on the Telly, but from Yes Minister I'd think that civil servants have their own vested interests and like to look after their own as well. (Btw, Margaret Thatcher said it was one of the most accurate programmes on telly ever; I'm not one to normally agree with the mad evil bitch, but in this case, I make an exception)#

true Anarcho Syndicalist society.

Is this a good time to post that picture of the Monty Python lads taking on King Arthur and pointing out that 'some watery tart chucking swords is no sound basis for a system of government'..

mycroft

I'm sorry - perhaps from where you're seated you couldn't see my tongue semi-planted in cheek... i.e if I thought such a thing *could* work, I'd seriously advocate it, but as I don't, I only advocate it for the larf...

Sorry, I couldn't get the image of "all hail our benevolent general Krull" out of my head.

Good points you make, and indeed honorable mentions for Jimmy C (building homes, nobel Prize, rarely called a c***) and Joe H, but I think that they're both minorities. I mean - for the love of God, I don't think in this day and age we can talk about political integrity and look to the American system where companies are unashamed of their 'donations'

Yeah although I once apologises to Liz O Donnell, after some remarks I made to her on my doorstep when she was first standing for election. The concept of a PD with ethics was inconcievable, but she proved me wrong. Pity about the lack of spine though.

Is this a good time to post that picture of the Monty Python lads taking on King Arthur and pointing out that 'some watery tart chucking swords is no sound basis for a system of government'

COME AND WATCH THE OPPRESSING OF THE MASSES.

Redleslie2

grumpytrousers wrote:

Is this a good time to post that picture of the Monty Python lads taking on King Arthur and pointing out that 'some watery tart chucking swords is no sound basis for a system of government'..

Rofl. That scene in full.

sliabh

Perhaps a more interesting debate would be how would you reform Democracy? In the west we have been working with the parliamentary and presidential versions for about 200 years now and they generally work pretty well. It's certainly demonstrated that it's the least worst of all the systems of government tried so far (dictatorship, anarchy, monarchy, etc. generally have not lasted as well). In fact I think falling voter turn out is partially a symptom of people being satisfied and not feeling the need to have to go out and express themselves through the ballot box. All the parties are broadly similar in what they want and how it should be achieved (compared let's say with 100 years ago, today even the left wing parties won't argue for nationalising all industry and the right wing ones don't believe in a totally unfettered market).

The flaws that are there are relatively minor, such as low levels of corruption, pandering to sectional interests of the electorate rather than the greater good and possibly excessive influence by some vested minority and commercial interests.

The largest change that has happened really in that 200 years of popular democracy is that everyone get's the vote these days rather than just a select male elite. So maybe it's time for a more radical look at how democracy should be working in the 21st century? Is it time for a root and branch reform. Maybe use technology to give people more say and politicians less, maybe eliminate parties in favour of lists of technocrats? (just making stuff up on the fly here).

MucFluck

Thats a nice broad sweeping generalisation.

tis, but it's the way it looks to me, I trust the ones who try to be good guys even less. Thats sounds unfair but I never see a politican unless their begging at my door. They do nothing but make promises, their to far removed from the people. I'd like to see more local government because if you keep the politicians close to the people they won't be so inclinde to **** them over. I don't really care what "system" we use as long as stuff gets done and laws are fair.

The flaws that are there are relatively minor, such as low levels of corruption, pandering to sectional interests of the electorate rather than the greater good and possibly excessive influence by some vested minority and commercial interests.

They may be minor but it's still causing people to go trough their whole lifes in missery. It's not right and shouldn't be alowed. I know some will say theres little that can be done about and it's not as bad as it used to be but it still happens and we let it by being complacent.

mycroft

The flaws that are there are relatively minor, such as low levels of corruption, pandering to sectional interests of the electorate rather than the greater good and possibly excessive influence by some vested minority and commercial interests.

Sorry but corruption and pandering to lobbyists has reached pandemic proportions.

For starts we need a cap on donations to political parties, and total disclosure of all TD earnings.

I'd like to see a more referendum based system similiar to the swiss. Getting people more involved in the process.

tis, but it's the way it looks to me, I trust the ones who try to be good guys even less. Thats sounds unfair but I never see a politican unless their begging at my door.

Tell me do you make any attempt to engage with politicans or any of the parties outside of election time, are you expecting politicans to stand outside your gaff waiting on you hand and foot.

I'd like to see more local government because if you keep the politicians close to the people they won't be so inclinde to **** them over. I don't really care what "system" we use as long as stuff gets done and laws are fair.

No the problem with Irish TDs is they are too involved in local politics. Witness the hassle we had getting them to give up the County Council seats. My TD is supposed to represent me on matters of national and international importance. Too much of electioneering in this country is of the "Getting Ms O Dwyers driveway tarmac'd" and the TD making sure he gets a round in at the local before the election.

If you want more local government I'd suggest you pick a party and get involved and maybe become a candiate for the CC.

Remember you get the government you deserve.

Victor

Germany created a class of professional politicians by using a mix of first past the post and a list system in their elections. The list system stops individual politicians and party leaders from engaging in "all politics is local" type behavior. A nice balance to this is the ancient greek system of picking people by lottery(?) and giving them only a short term in power. One complaint by members of the Lords is that the Commons is full of politicians that have never had a real job in their lives.

mycroft

One complaint by members of the Lords is that the Commons is full of politicians that have never had a real job in their lives.

Sure you got that the right way round? :eek:

therecklessone

mycroft wrote:

One could point out Joe Higgins, who gives everything barring €19,000 of his TD salary to his party and donated his government car and driver to his consituents where it ferries around eldery and disabled members of the community.

I've a lot of time for Joe Higgins, but I wasn't aware ordinary TDs were given a state car and driver. Is this true?

I believe poor old Tony Gregory's been getting awful stick off government TDs after his jaunt to Oz, with whistles of "Skippie the bush kangaroo" as he struts the corriders of Dail Eireann. Would he still be considered a decent skin after the media scrum that followed his holiday in the sun?

mycroft

I've a lot of time for Joe Higgins, but I wasn't aware ordinary TDs were given a state car and driver. Is this true?

Yup, he's also the best TD for expenses (he claims the least) Mind you it's really all he can do in the Dail, raise annoying questions, and be morally superior.

Victor

therecklessone wrote:

I've a lot of time for Joe Higgins, but I wasn't aware ordinary TDs were given a state car and driver. Is this true?

Not a state car, not a state driver. They can employ their own civilian driver / assistant and constituency staff and get allowances towards this. Separately they get travel (including hotel) *or* accommmodation allowances which go to pay for the car.

therecklessone

Victor wrote:

Not a state car, not a state driver. They can employ their own civilian driver / assistant and constituency staff and get allowances towards this.

Original post had me confused, thanks for clearing that up.

Leaves me wondering whether its kosher or not. Whether his intentions are pure or not, is that not abusing the system for allowances?

sliabh

MucFluck wrote:

Thats sounds unfair but I never see a politican unless their begging at my door. They do nothing but make promises, their to far removed from the people.

To echo mycroft try talking to them. I have emailed my TDs and local councillors on various issues and it's good to see who takes the time to even acknowledge these things (Hey! Fianna Fail people, do you ever check any of those mail addresses you publish?). At the last Euro/Local election I emailed candiates looking for their position on some of the issues I was concerned about. I had to as I live in an apartment and they don't do door calls. I ended up making my decision on who to vote for based on these interactions rather than the bunk coming through the letter box.

As an example Mary Freehil is one of my local Labour councillors (Rathmines ward). I have mailed her a few times on various issues. She has an email list that she occasionally sends out information on council business. Most recently she gave details of the planned changes to some planning stuff along the dodder and asked for submissions on it.

In general I find politicans will listen and take on board comments and feedback provided they believe you are a reasonable person. They do tend to see a load of irate people with a bee in their bonnet about one pet issue. These they tend to be VERY wary of e.g. "Why don't you people do something about people that don't clean up after their dogs. It's about time we started locking people up for that!"