School taken Hostage by Chechen Terrorists

Sand

We have a situation here people who have been turned into Psycho Killers by what's happened personally to them in Chechnya. As was the case at the theatre siege in Moscow, Id say most if not all of the hostage takers have had their families wiped out by the Russian massacres in Grozny and now think the only good Russian no matter what age is a dead one.

I dont think its worth the effort of trying to determine whose least vicious, or least responsible for their own actions, Those terrorists and those Russian war crinimals deserve each other. Unfotunately they both keep tormenting easy victims rather than tackling each other.

Redleslie2

dathi1 wrote:

We have a situation here people who have been turned into Psycho Killers by what's happened personally to them in Chechnya. As was the case at the theatre siege in Moscow, Id say most if not all of the hostage takers have had their families wiped out by the Russian massacres in Grozny and now think the only good Russian no matter what age is a dead one.

Yeah I read somewhere that this generation of Chechens has grown up mostly illiterate and 8 out of 10 children have psychological problems due to trauma from all the war and stuff.

SkepticOne

Victor wrote:

Of course wasn't it Stalin who started all this?

Goes back a little further than that apparently:

This is not the first time that Russian leaders have had problems with people in the Caucus region. Back in 1817, the Czar's armies needed almost 50 years to subdue the Chechens, in which they finally succeeded in 1864. General Aleksei Yermolov, who fought the Chechens at that time, said, "These people can never be pacified. They can only be annihilated." The General was right. In the 19th century, the only thing that the Czars succeeded in doing was killing half the population in the area. When Stalin had problems with the Chechens almost a hundred years later, he simply deported them en masse. Unfortunately for Yeltsin, he has no such option. [source]

Hobbes

Poblachtach wrote:

Gimme time and ill show you links to pictures of what the russian army done to women over there.

I am well aware of what happens over there, and "slaughtering children" I haven't seen or heard about. Certainly children have been killed or other effects, but slaughtering.. no.

Yeah I read somewhere that this generation of Chechens has grown up mostly illiterate and 8 out of 10 children have psychological problems due to trauma from all the war and stuff.

Which sounds like what I have read.

Sparks

Hobbes, does it count as slaughtering children if they're killed when FAEs are used on cities?

Hobbes

First up all this "Russia deserves it" sh!t is extremly tasteless. Especially when it was going on.

Second, "slaughtering children" term defines that Russia is rounding up large numbers of Children and killing them. I assume that AG2004 was just using the term "slaughtering" to help hype up his posts as usual .

arcadegame2004

Well Hobbes, here is some evidenece for my contention:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3184161.stm

Rape and death in Chechnya
The family of a Chechen girl killed by a Russian officer accepted political asylum in Norway last month. Before they left, Sapiet Dakhshukaeva talked to them about their ordeal, and their views on the jailing of the culprit.

On 26 March 2000 Russia went to the polls to elect a president, but the Chechen village of Tangi-Chu was under military blockade, as it had been for more than a month.


THE TANGI-CHU BLOCKADE
Aim: to 'cleanse' the village of rebels and block a key road
In 'cleansing operations' troops surround a village and take men away for interrogation
Human rights groups link them with torture, disappearances, and summary execution
Soldiers of the 160th Russian tank division prevented anyone entering or leaving the village, cutting it off entirely from the outside world.

Meanwhile, three armed personnel carriers drove around, spreading terror among the local residents.

Mounted on one of the armed cars was an officer, whose face was well known, even though almost no-one knew his name.

The Kungayev family lived on the very edge of the village. Like other families they usually put their children to bed in their clothes, to be ready for any emergency.


Rosa Bashaeva
I have suffered, my daughter has suffered, and tomorrow it will be someone else - no-one can insure themselves against it
Rosa Kungayeva
They had three daughters - Elsa, Khava and Larisa - and two sons - Khavazhi and Khassi - all of whom were all asleep when a military vehicle rolled up to the house at 1am in the morning.

The father, Visa, heard automatic rifles being loaded outside the door, and assumed the soldiers had come for him - it did not occur to him that they might want his children.

As the mother, Rosa, was not at home that night, he woke the eldest daughter, Elsa (also known as Kheda), and told her to rouse the others quickly, before he slipped out to get help.

The children recalled later that the soldiers spent only five to seven minutes in the house.

There was no search. They seized Khava first, who was then only 13 years old, but let her go when they saw her elder sister, 18-year-old Elsa.

As they grabbed her by the hands and led her away, she cried to her younger brothers and sisters to defend her.

Her father's younger brother, Adlan, ran over from a neighbouring house - but the officer, Budanov, showered him with obscenities and struck him with the butt of his rifle, leaving the children in shock.

In the hallway Elsa lost consciousness. Then the visitors wrapped her in a rug and took her away.

'Quiet night'

What happened next, the whole world now knows, from the trial that continued on and off for more than two years in the North Caucasus district military court, in Rostov-on-Don: Elsa was raped and strangled.

Budanov checking documents in Tangi-Chu in March 2000
Blockade: Budanov checking documents in Tangi-Chu
But when Budanov reported to his chiefs the next morning he said the night in Tangi-Chu had passed quietly, and without incident.

Elsa's case is not an isolated one. Human rights organisations have documented hundreds of disappearances since 1999 - of women as well as men.

The frequency of rape and sexual assault is unknown and unknowable, though rumours abound in Chechen villages.

There have been few official complaints, partly because of the risk of reprisals, and partly because of local taboos. A woman who is known to have been raped is unlikely to find a husband, and a married woman may well be divorced.

Colonel Yuri Budanov
In court: Convicted of murder, never tried for rape
"This, obviously, is to the advantage of the soldiers," says Eliza Musaeva, a representative of the human rights organisation, Memorial, in the neighbouring republic of Ingushetia.

"If something happened, it is considered shameful... People try to hide the fact because they have to somehow continue living in this society."

Sexual assault is also notoriously unprovable, because of the lack of witnesses - but in Elsa's case, her dead body bore clear evidence of rape.

At first Budanov was charged with it, but then another young soldier admitted responsibility. He was later pardoned in an amnesty.

No consolation

According to a study by Memorial of 51 soldiers convicted of crimes in Chechnya, two found guilty of rape were given suspended sentences.

Elsa's brothers and sisters in Ingushetia tent camp
The family moved to a refugee camp in Ingushetia after the killing
Budanov himself almost avoided jail for murder, when his lawyers persuaded judges he was temporarily insane at the time of the killing. He was only convicted after a higher court ordered a re-trial.

When I met Elsa's mother, Rosa, in a refugee camp in the Ingush village of Karabulak, officials of Russia's ultranationalist Liberal Democratic Party were talking about naming Budanov as a candidate in this year's parliamentary elections.

"We are afraid that he might be put forward for parliament," she said, as the cheerful squeaking of chicks resting around our feet broke the gloomy silence of the tidily kept tent.

Rosa, in her grief, seemed oblivious to the surroundings. Wiping away tears, she said: "It makes no difference what sentence they give Budanov, it won't give us any consolation. Our daughter will never come home..."

She was convinced that while Budanov has been jailed, many like him have gone unpunished.

"The most awful thing is that such people (when they leave Chechnya) then travel all over Russia in all directions. I have suffered, my daughter has suffered, and tomorrow it will be someone else. No-one can insure themselves against it."

There are many other similar stories too. Can they all be wrong?

First up all this "Russia deserves it" sh!t is extremly tasteless.

Of course the children and their families don't "deserve" it. But it is a predictable reaction to years of genocide in Chechnya in which many have become desperate. Putin has driven people to extremes by his own extreme Nazi repression. He has just installed his latest Vichy-regime under the puppet president Alu Alkhanov - a Marshall Petain-type. We should not give any credence to it because those elections were a sham with more popualr candidates disqualified. At least Vichy did not pretend to be democratic.

Hobbes

I was complaining about your use of "Slaughtering Children". As I said, I am well aware of what goes on there, and nothing you have posted so far supports your accusation of slaughtering.

So post the facts, not sensationalism.

I also your posts are in poor taste for a reason. Lets take bashing American issues which has always gone on, but you will be hard pressed to find posts of "Yous deserved it" while 9/11 was happening.

Redleslie2

Well this is how a BBC journalist described a 1999 rocket attack on Grozny which hit a market and maternity hospital.

Thursday's slaughter of civilians at Grozny's market and maternity hospital is probably just a taste of worse to come.

Human Rights Watch also has a report called "FEBRUARY 5: A DAY OF SLAUGHTER IN NOVYE ALDI" here.

See? Sllllllaughter.


Ultimately, who is responsible for this type of thing, the grunts, the military hierarchy or Putin himself?

Hobbes

Redleslie2 wrote:

Well this is how a BBC journalist described a 1999 rocket attack on Grozny which hit a market and maternity hospital.

Yes but does it say "Russians slaughtering children"?

Ultimately, who is responsible for this type of thing, the grunts, the military hierarchy or Putin himself?

Which is more the point I am trying to drive.

arcadegame2004

I also your posts are in poor taste for a reason. Lets take bashing American issues which has always gone on, but you will be hard pressed to find posts of "Yous deserved it" while 9/11 was happening.

I'm not saying that Russian civilians "deserve" it. They don't. But if those being held hostage were the Russian soldiers who had taken part in massacres of Chechen civilians, then yes, I feel THEY would have deserved it, as it would just be them getting a little taste of the avalanche of barbaric cruelty they have been meating out for the last 5 years and during the 1994 war.

And I never said that the US deserved 911. Please do not misrepresent me.

Redleslie2

Hobbes wrote:

Yes but does it say "Russians slaughtering children"?

Well if you bomb a maternity hospital it's odds on that you're going to bag a few kiddies.

A reporter for the French news agency, AFP, counted 27 bodies at the maternity hospital - most of them women and new-born babies.

Does killing civilians including kiddies with aerial and artillery bombardment count as slaughter?

Cork

Terrorists believe they are fighting a war. But when the army or police force stoop to the same level of these terrorists their is outcry.

Taking civialians hostage and making demands on elected governments is barbaric.

We see this in Iraq with the taking of journalists and business men.


Do the Chechens think they are doing they "cause" any good?

dathi1

Do the Chechens think they are doing they "cause" any good?

I don't think they care about international opinion since International opinion doesn't really care much about them. They probably realise they are a lost cause and so they're out on a revenge attack. Speaking of killing children...those cowardly stratospheric fighters are at it again in Fallujah today. Talk about psychotic terrorists.

arcadegame2004

Do the Chechens think they are doing they "cause" any good?

You use the definite article "the". It is important to recognise that the deposed (and elected democratically) Chechen Government of Aslan Maskhadov has condemned the kidnappings.

The Russian military in Chechnya are also terrorists.

Russia should clear off out of Chechnya and learn civilised behaviour. It needs to be housetrained in democracy and human-rights.

seamus

Cork wrote:

Terrorists believe they are fighting a war. But when the army or police force stoop to the same level of these terrorists their is outcry.

Yep. "Eye for an eye" doesn't cut it anymore, mainly because we've found that attempts to give as good as we got, end up hurting people who had nothing to do with it, those that we thought we were trying to save.

Taking civialians hostage and making demands on elected governments is barbaric.

It sure is. What would drive a person to such a thing? I mean, can you imagine yourself doing something like that? Can you comprehend what it would take to make you so desperate to stoop to that barbarism? This is why attacking the problem will never work - "cleansing" of terrorist camps, waging war on those who would support the terrorists, or who would be suspected of being terrorists, will never work. It will never remove the terrorists. It's the same old story. One terrorists is killed, fighting for what he believes in, and another takes his place - his brother, his son, his nephew, his sister, whoever.

You need to attack the cause. These people are at barbaric levels. You hardly think that fighting barbarism with barbarism will work. You need to address the cause, you need to find out why people become terrorists in the first place, what is driving them, and deal with that.

Do the Chechens think they are doing they "cause" any good?

Do the PIRA think they're doing their cause any good? Do you think they care? Terrorist groups aren't at the mercy of the public in general. Governments need the approval of a country as a whole. Terrorists don't. They only need the approval of a small amount of people who will support and sustain them.

sapat

I don't understand why the term colateral damage is used when NATO bombs a civilian serbs' train, TV station or a hospital in Iraq, while the same action from the Russian military is condemned as terrorism?
The main diffrence between the military and the terrorists is the latter target specifically civilians because the lack the capabilities or the courage(or both) to target the enemy. Having said that I believe both wars in Iraq and in Chechnya are wrong (there is a long list of reasons). But from this point on I wouldn't say Chechen cause has a chance. These guys made Putin a huge present, even if most people do not realize this yet.
By the way these pictures (the mass graves) show mostly man, who may have been militants. So they prove little to substabtiate arcadegame2004 point.

arcadegame2004

I don't understand why the term colateral damage is used when NATO bombs a civilian serbs' train, TV station or a hospital in Iraq, while the same action from the Russian military is condemned as terrorism?

The Russian military IS deliberately targeting innocent civilians in Chechnya, according to all the major human-rights groups. That is why they wont let the Western media into Chechnya. Russia is a genocidal Nazi state and the Russophiles on this forum had better wake up and realise that, instead of this pathetic Vichyite mindset some of you seem to have.

sapat

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The Russian military IS deliberately targeting innocent civilians in Chechnya, according to all the major human-rights groups. That is why they wont let the Western media into Chechnya. Russia is a genocidal Nazi state and the Russophiles on this forum had better wake up and realise that, instead of this pathetic Vichyite mindset some of you seem to have.

Wow, hold your horses! If you just hate the Russians this is one thing- then there is no sense talking to you.
But the Western media is not in Chechnya, because hostage taking is a good bussiness there and some times it goes wrong - like when a hostage is found with his throat slit.
In a summary Russia does not do anything different to Chechnya than England to Ireland/Scotland, Irish/Scotts to Indians, Turks to Armenians/Bulgarians etc.
And if you are here for name calling it means you just don't have facts to work with.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

arcadegame2004

sapat wrote:

Wow, hold your horses! If you just hate the Russians this is one thing- then there is no sense talking to you.
But the Western media is not in Chechnya, because hostage taking is a good bussiness there and some times it goes wrong - like when a hostage is found with his throat slit.
In a summary Russia does not do anything different to Chechnya than England to Ireland/Scotland, Irish/Scotts to Indians, Turks to Armenians/Bulgarians etc.
And if you are here for name calling it means you just don't have facts to work with.

The fact that Russia is repeating the genocide by Cromwell, etc. does not justify it.

sapat

arcadegame2004,
Certainly not. One could argue if this is a genocide or not and to what extent civilians were targeted specifically (I don't think this was a policy and there are no proofs of this). However occupying a foreign land is always a bad thing and a struggle for independance is imminent and justified. Chechens had their freedom at 95/96. What did they do? Attack Ingushetia an year after they got their independance. So in a way they brought it upon themselves.
Now taking children as hostages is also a precedent. I can't recall any movement for independance doing something like this so far. This is beyond any limits and cannot be tolerated in any way. This damages the Chechen cause beyond repair at least in the next 5-10 years.

arcadegame2004

Chechens had their freedom at 95/96. What did they do? Attack Ingushetia an year after they got their independance. So in a way they brought it upon themselves.

Here you go again! "They" :rolleyes:

The Chechen President at the time, Aslan Maskhadov, made it clear he had no hand, act or part in the invasion of Dagestan by Shamil Basayev and his gang of Islamist extremists. But thre you go again, tarring everyone with the same brush!

You might as well say that Britain would have been within its rights to invade us in response to Omagh and other attrocities by Republic paramilitaries as they were attacks by "the Irish". Could you please stop tarring an entire people with the same brush as a few extremists.

It is genocide. I have already quoted numerous sources on this earlier in this or the previous Chechnya thread. But then, like the Nazi dictatorship, I suppose the Putin regime also has its admirers in some Western countries...

therecklessone

sapat wrote:

One could argue if this is a genocide or not and to what extent civilians were targeted specifically (I don't think this was a policy and there are no proofs of this).

Amnesty International disagree.

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/chechnya/

Amnesty International is concerned that the way in which the Russian forces are waging war in Chechnya -- that is, in apparent disregard of international humanitarian law -- and the discriminatory manner in which Chechens have been targeted by the authorities in Moscow, suggest that the government has been involved in a campaign to punish an entire ethnic group. "Fighting crime and terrorism" is no justification for violating human rights.

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Could you please stop tarring an entire people with the same brush as a few extremists.

Eh pot, kettle tells me you said he has a black arse...

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

sapat

therecklessone wrote:

Amnesty International disagree.

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/chechnya/

Guys, you probably don't know what a genocide is... While I believe indiscriminate killing during war is a war crime (and we could put here Nagasaki/Hiroshima, Vietnam, Russia in Afganistan, Iraq and other countless examples in virtually any country in the world) it doesnot constitute genocide. Genocide is wiping out whole population as a part of state policy. Like Rwanda, Osman empire, the Spanish in America, etc. We are talking about everyone being killed on the spot. I don't think even Stalin did that. And he had a good excuse that was well accepted by the West- Chechens were helping the Nazis during the war.
Anyway, I don't say everyone in Chechnya is guilty for the invasion, but I doubt it could have proceeded without the silent backing of Mashadov. Even if this is not the case (which I strongly doubt) he should have known better.

arcadegame2004

And he had a good excuse that was well accepted by the West- Chechens were helping the Nazis during the war.

Prove it. Evidence please. I feel that this accusation at the time was just part of Stalin's total paranoia.

Genocide is wiping out whole population as a part of state policy.

Even the Spanish genocide in South America did not kill ALL of the Indians, and there are still 20 million speakers of Indian languages and that doesnt include millions more Indians. The legal definition of genocide is:

rticle II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide. "

It is a crime to plan or incite genocide, even before killing starts, and to aid or abet genocide: Criminal acts include conspiracy, direct and public incitement, attempts to commit genocide, and complicity in genocide.

Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:

Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death.

Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation.

Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.

Prevention of births includes involuntary sterilization, forced abortion, prohibition of marriage, and long-term separation of men and women intended to prevent procreation.

Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years.

Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and transfer of children are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence.

The law protects four groups - national, ethnical, racial or religious groups.

A national group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by a common country of nationality or national origin.

An ethnical group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common cultural traditions, language or heritage.

A racial group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by physical characteristics.

A religious group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common religious creeds, beliefs, doctrines, practices, or rituals.

Key Terms

The crime of genocide has two elements: intent and action. “Intentional” means purposeful. Intent can be proven directly from statements or orders. But more often, it must be inferred from a systematic pattern of coordinated acts.

Intent is different from motive. Whatever may be the motive for the crime (land expropriation, national security, territorrial integrity, etc.), if the perpetrators commit acts intended to destroy a group, even part of a group, it is genocide.

The phrase "in whole or in part" is important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of only part of a group (such as its educated members, or members living in one region) is also genocide. Most authorities require intent to destroy a substantial number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be guilty of genocide even if he kills only one person, so long as he knew he was participating in a larger plan to destroy the group.

So slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent civilians in Chechnya does constitute genocide. And anyway, if genocide is not going on, why has Putin barred the Western media from Chechnya? What has he got to hide?

bonkey

arcadegame2004 wrote:

and the Russophiles on this forum had better wake up and realise that, instead of this pathetic Vichyite mindset some of you seem to have.

I've warned you about making generalised insults like this against other posters on the forum. Just because it isn't targetted at single, named individuals doesn't make it acceptable.

Final warning.

jc

bonkey

arcadegame2004 wrote:

So slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent civilians in Chechnya does constitute genocide.

...may constitute genocide.

jc