Legal Question - New door

][cEMAN**

Just wanted to gauge some opinion, and if possible some real concrete advice on this matter.

My parents have recently purchased a new front door from a company. Large thick wooden door. The guy who hung the door left it in such a way that it won't close right. The top half of the door is sitting out over half an inch more than where it should sit fully closed. Now on closer inspection of the door it looks like it too might be warped.

Now my parents asked them to come refit it a load of times but they've said they were going to come out over and over and didn't. So my father went to small claims as the whole thing cost them a few hundred £ to get put in.

Someone called out yesterday to check the door from the place they bought it from. Firstly he tried to say

"oh the doors not warped. Maybe you think it is from looking at it all day long but it doesn't look warped to me".

So I asked him to pull out his spirit level to check it.

"ah...I don't have it with me. But I can come back and I can bring it with me next time"

He then proceeds to ask who we paid for this as the people who sold it didn't actually fit it - they recommended a company to go through to get it fitted. And he seemed to be a bit persistant on the point of who we paid to get it fitted. I was under the impression if you recommend someone or something in regards to your product you're legally bound on this for the service if it doesn't work or causes problems?

Anyway, next he looks at the door closed. You can obviously see the top right hand corner looks like it's being bent backwards. So he pushes on it - hard, cause it takes a good hard press to get it in place. Then he looks at the upper lock on the door and says

"this needs to be moved in a bit, because the lock isn't sitting tight in place"

I asked him if it was general practice that doors needed tightly fitted locks just to hold it from being warped. He replied that doors warp naturally and that you need to hold them in place with tight locks. Now, with the lock actually closed, you can't turn the key in the door because it's pushing away from the lock so much and so tight it won't even let you turn the key.

He was talking to my mother first, but I was there, and when I overheard what he was saying to her I came out and asked those quests about the warp and needing a lock to hold it in place. He seemed to get a little edgy and said about he would need to go and come back some other time.

Basically I need to know a couple of things.

1) Is it normal for any wooden door that it should warp on 1 corner to the point that it pulls the door open on one side? And are they responsible for it if it is warped (It came like this but they might say it's happened due to heat/cold so I need to check)

2) If he recommended the third party company to fit the door they sold, if they did a shoddy job, are they still responsible for vouching for them under recommendation?

3) Is a lock needed in any instance to hold a door from warping because of the so called 'natural warp' of about nearly a full inch. Or is he just clutching at straws so he wouldn't have to replace the door itself?

Where would my parents stand in this, and what would they need to do as of now to best back their small claim?

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Sleipnir

A good door should not warp, it is defective. Depends how much it cost but if you feel it was expensive as door go, it should be replaced.
Locks are not designed to hold warped doors, that's just pants.

They did only "recommend" the 3rd party fitter (who is probably a mate)

Basically, the company your parents bought the door from is responsible for defective door.
The company who fitted the door are responsible for not fitting it properly.

grumpytrousers

Sounds like a complete chancer. FWIW our front door is a 'good heavy door' and has hung for 35 years. It still shows no signs of warping. Period. That's a guarded no to Point one that you raise!

Point 2 - tricky. I mean - if company a and company b have a formal partnership, then there could be the 'proving' of it, but if Joe just recommends Mick to do a job for you, 'cos they're pals....well - dunno really...see below

Point 3 - I am not a lawyer. Nor indeed a carpenter. However, this sounds like absolute horse****.

Get yer arse down the small claims court!! Costs a few bob to get the ball rolling, and it might focus the minds of those responsible. When it comes to 'who's responsible', check with the claims court - I'd think they'll suggest you name company a as the 'respondent' and if that company *has* good grounds not to be held responsible, they'll tell you pretty lively, at which point you just name the other company...

G'luck

stevenmu

A door shouldn't warp but sometimes they do a bit, it can depend on the wood it's made of. It's fairly standard for the fitter to have to modify the door a bit to get it to fit right. You should get the fitter back and get hime to have a look, when he says it's not his problem tell him about the small claims court and ask is he willing to go in there and say that the problem i with the door itself and not his fitting, if he says yes ask why he didn't mention that before fitting it.

Vulture

1) Doors should not warp at all so long as it was painted/varnished when you got it. If it warps it's their fault. Well unless your house is excessivly damp like a swimming pool

2) Not to sure, verbal contract not worth the paper its printed on

3) A lock is only their to lock the door. It has nothing to do with preventing warping.


Your parents should hound the guys out of it and get them to do a good job, they sound like cowboys. Small claims sounds a bit excessive.

ballooba

Vulture wrote:

Small claims sounds a bit excessive.

Small claims is never really 'excessive'.

What does it cost these days? €10?

They'll probably just give you a refund rather than have the hassle of turning up in court.

][cEMAN**

They've already hounded them now for a couple of months. Small claims court is so far the only thing that has gotten one of them to even come out and look at the door again.

If I know for certain that a door should not warp that much as to have to push the door in at the top to get it to sit properly, then I can throw that at the company who sold it.

If I know that they can not say that "if you reseat the lock to hold it in place that will sort the problem" then i'll throw that at them because they're trying to make out that reseating the lock will resolve it by holding the door in place.

As for the recommendation, if as standard they are recommending certain companies (not just individuals) to fit these doors as they don't provide the service themselves, then does this not make them responsible? I know for eg. in computer companies if 1 company recommends a third party product or part for an item or a repair, and it gets messed up, they are accountable as well for recommending them.

Ie. Go buy this s/w to make your computer to XYZ, and it messes your PC up or doesn't do what you said it would - you recommended it and by doing so gave it your approval. It's like adding "supported parts" which aren't supported in a tech list. I'm ranting on a bit here....am I wrong with this?

grumpytrousers

not too sure about the parallels between s/w recommendations and hardware, versus door selling and installation... One's a mite more complex that requires 'know-how'...

Go the small claims court...oh - and you might take a photo of how warped the door is. Run a plumbline which will show how straight the line of the door *should* be and how crooked it really is...

Kazu

the door could have been the wrong size for the door entrance a small bit two big for the door entrance and the fitter could have warped the door with excessive force using a crowbar to squeeze the door in and in that case both parties are guilty

tba

You should get an arbitrator to settle the dispute for you. Preferably one with experience with trades men and the building trade.

The small claims court will be decided by a judge, who will more than likely not know if a door should warp or if a lock has to hold a door in place.

the RIAI provide concilliation and arbitration services and can advise you better

www.riai.ie

][cEMAN**

I can double check but afaik the door is the correct size. I think my parents checked it before they bought it.

I understand that the judge probably wouldn't have a clue what he's doing so that's why I wanted to check on here for anyone who might be able to site direct and specific legal advice on the above questions. If the fact that a door can not be seen by nature to warp out of shape where a lock is needed to hold it in place, and it can be proven by reference or some documentation, then this can be used.

Victor

' wrote:

[cEMAN**']JThe top half of the door is sitting out over half an inch more than where it should sit fully closed.

Then the door is not fit for it's intended use. While timber doors are made from natural material and some defect is inevitable, this defect is well beyond reasonable or acceptable. A door should be able to sit closed unlocked by itself, you should not need to hold it closed with a lock.

For court, you will need to actually need to know the actual amount of the warp. Photos with a tape measure in frame are handy.

][cEMAN**

Just thinking on what he said as well.......if you need a lock to hold the door in place so that it won't warp, then though you can close it by applying pressure to it on the inside, you can't pull it into a locked position from the outside of the door.

grumpytrousers

' wrote:

[cEMAN**']Just thinking on what he said as well.......if you need a lock to hold the door in place so that it won't warp, then though you can close it by applying pressure to it on the inside, you can't pull it into a locked position from the outside of the door.

Well - a touch over 24 hours from the start of this thread, and this just struck me.

"A lock - to hold the ****ing door in place and stop it warping...jesus wept...."

Not having a pop at you, Iceman, you're merely quoting the doofus who'se trying to string your parents along.

Just think - for a minute - how bloody daft an excuse is that.
A door is for opening and closing. It shall lie 'flush' with its surrounds, unless otherwise designed. That is ALL a door is meant to do. It's not meant to warp, it's not meant to bend.

A lock, on the other hand, is merely a device present to prevent unauthorised use of the door. It is not meant as a device attached to a door to stop it from warping. I don't recall Yale or Chubb selling their wares with the tagline 'Now with added doo-hickey to stop your door warping'.

a sole lock on a door will tend to have a sole point of contact between itself and the doorframe. it CAN'T be intentionally used to preserve the shape of a door....not unless you have loads and loads of wee locks around the door holding it flush with the frame...

okay - i'll stop now...I'm gonna turn into 'dead parrot sketch' man in a mo...