Bujin Kan

Nichololas

Does anyone know anything about Bujin Kan (not sure if thats how you spell it, source is frequently unreliable)? I've done four years of Shotokan (purple belt). Three years then a break of three then took it up again. I've also done Judo and gotten to yellow belt at it. Unfortunately i'm finding it difficult to keep going to Shotokan lessons (keep getting further away) and was wondering if this would be a good alternative. From what I've been told it's a mixture of nine martial arts and focuses a lot on (aggressive) defence such as how to break an arm, etc. Also my friend was very enthusiastic about sword practice he saw while spectating a training session. Thoughts?

Colm_OReilly

Paul Moran runs a good club near you. Details of it are on the Kung Fu thread.

cartman

hi,
i was just about to post a thread about it.. i really want to take it up [no experience], and wondering would it take longer as im starting a bit late [19] and also anywhere in galway/clare region do it... anyhelp appreciated, i was told it is one of the dearer martial arts and its not that common

pearsquasher

The full name of the art is Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

There's this thing called "Google"

But seriously, check out www.bujinkan.ie for a list of clubs around the country.

I recommend the South African website for a very nice description of what we do: http://www.bujinkan.co.za/H4.html

pearsquasher

If you went to watch a class you would see:

Striking - with hands, feet, and everything in between propelled by efficient, natural body movement. Nothing like karate, apparently. We use a different sort of power generation.

Grappling - throws, "locks", joint-reversals, sweeps, balance-taking etc. Your judo expereince will make you recognise an idea or two in there. Afterall, judo's roots lie in some of the same roots as 9 schools.

Weapons - used mainly to enhance overall body movement, awareness, distance and timing, and power. The sword-work your friend saw is very unlike kendo or iaido and comes from battlefield combat, not sport or peacetime artistry - although there is an art to actual fighting really i think, inside the chaos.

Sparring - only really done as a movement excersise and not really done for practicing head-to-head fighting. We learn to fight, not to spar. Very different.

Pressure testing - imbedded in the overall study of body/physchological dynamics we engage in. Everything we do technique-wise has an inherent "aliveness" and as such it doesn't generally tend or need to be isolated out.

Self-defence - a natural result of studying fighting the way we do is the abailtiy to be able to physical protect oneself and more importantly, to be able to recognise how not to need to.

Competition - Zero.

Excericise: Different clubs have different approaches to the fitness required and trained in in the dojo. Basically, if you want to keep fit, go to a gym, if you want to study budo - japanese martial arts - go to the dojo. Any questions about how to improve felibility, stamina etc etc can be asked of course.

Cartwheels, sommersaults etc. - we do excersises that promote the abilty of an individual to respond to being off balance, whether that means being knocked down, being thrown, falling or needing to move strategically. So we do a lot of rolling, breakfalls, jumping etc.


Ritual/formality?
- Theres a shell of traditional japanese etiquette that isn't rigid at all and basically mirrors the schema in Japan as a mark of respect. Anyone who is
"into" Japaneseness soon realises they'll get nowhere pursuing it vehemently. Training comes first.

columok

The sword-work your friend saw is very unlike kendo or iaido and comes from battlefield combat, not sport or peacetime artistry

A little derisive towards Iaido and Kendo. They were born on the battlefield and Kendo regularily spars. Id have more faith in a Kendoka or Iaidoka in a sword duel than I would in a Taijitsuka.

We learn to fight, not to spar. Very different.

Same skills. Same timing. Sparring is fighting with different rules. The delivery system is the same.

Pressure testing - imbedded in the overall study of body/physchological dynamics we engage in. Everything we do technique-wise has an inherent "aliveness" and as such it doesn't generally tend or need to be isolated out.

Explain the inherent aliveness.

pearsquasher

Id have more faith in a Kendoka or Iaidoka in a sword duel than I would in a Taijitsuka

Our sword work isn't geared toward's dueling, though. Battlefield combat or medieval life/death situations aren't about dueling/fencing - same way sparring isn't about fighting.

Sparring is fighting with different rules.

Ah ha... and its the rules that change everything - delivery system, tactics, strategy, adrenilin, mentality, survival instinct etc. No rules - i.e. actual combat, makes the entire interaction open to the principals of the universe, not the judge or umpire at the clock.

Explain the inherent aliveness.

Each person engaged in studying the principals of a technique is active in the engagement. The offender is really trying to attack you, the defender is really trying to apply the principlas under study to thwart the attack.

We really study the underlying mechanics of the human mind driving the human body. Combat happens to be an extreme and usefull way of studying this in depth.

Colm_OReilly

Sparring - only really done as a movement excersise and not really done for practicing head-to-head fighting. We learn to fight, not to spar. Very different.

I'm sorry, I find this statement very confusing. If it's a movement exercise and not done for "practicing...fighting" how do you "learn to fight"?

Ah ha... and its the rules that change everything - delivery system, tactics, strategy, adrenilin, mentality, survival instinct etc. No rules - i.e. actual combat

How is the delivery system changed? Perhaps we are not defining 'delivery system' the same as you?

Fighting: be it a street fight, a wrestling match, Thai fight, or Sport BJJ competition, is a skill based activity. That means it has restrictions in terms of space/movement, time to make a decision and execute a technique, and an opponent not only trying to stop you exectue a technique but actively trying techniques against you. In any skill based activity, those are the considerations.

You are correct to state that the rules change everything, or to paraphrase, the rules will dictate the way the game is played and how the activity/sport will evolve. Wrestling was originally about getting your opponent on to his back. But people started bridging on their necks and turning to their stomachs. So rules were added to award rolls and exposing someone's back. So the sport evolved and then the rules were tweeked again etc etc.

In the US they have a style of wrestling called 'Folkstyle' or 'Collegiate' wrestling which is similar to Freestyle, an International style. People are able to transition from folkstyle to freestyle because a high percentage of the fundamental skills and movements transfer across.

Now in "unlimited" sparring, where all three ranges are allowed, and most techniques are permitted, self defence skills are learnt and developed. Nasty stuff, like bites and eye gouges are taken out, for enjoyment and so that people can practice safely and repeatedly. But that does not exclude a proficient wrestler, who spends everyday training against guys to tie their arms up whilst leaving them free, from sticking his finger in your eye if you pick a fight with him. The fundamentals of controlling someone in that range do not change when we transition from sport to street.

Obviously, in high level competition, a practioner of Thai, Judo, Wrestling or Boxing may change his tactics, and look for a draw. But if that competitor was put in a street fight, against a thug, I'm quite confident that they would look for a way to end the situation there and then, and utilisse the skills they have acquired by training their art/sport.

makes the entire interaction open to the principals of the universe, not the judge or umpire at the clock

I'm sorry I don't understand this? By "principals of the universe" all I'm thinking of is physics and biology etc. Can you please explain? Thanks!

Take Care,
Colm

Colm_OReilly

Also, if it seems that we're hijacking every thread we apologise profusely. Myself and Colum have both have had our lives change for the better as a result of the type of training we do, and we're always anxious to tell people about this.

I also find that by interacting with people who'll challenge my believes I'll be able to re-evaluate them and grow.

Thanks Guys!

cartman

and you can only do this in dublin ,
jesus why dont they move to galway, not feckin fair
really REALLY want to learn this[have no previous experience in any martial art or fighting]

pearsquasher

There's a Dojo in

Athlone: http://www.bujinkanathlonedojo.org/

and there is one in

Tullamore and Portarlington: http://www.bujinkan.ie/clubs.htm

.. perhaps the guys there know of a group near Galway?

For folks starting out, travelling far to train is probably asking a lot. But in the 70's/80's when Westeners discovered the art, they travelled thousands of miles just to train. Even now, one of the master teachers in Japan travels 3 hours each way to train with the grandmaster and to teach. The current Grandmaster himself travelled 100's of kilometeres each week for 15 years to train with his teacher.

A Lithuanian living in Wexford used to come to Dublin every week by train, just to practice.

We are very lucky in Ireland that there are so many clubs in such a small place and most of the teachers regularily go to Japan to continue their study.
Even England doesn't have that much accessability. I guarantee you there are people travelling far an wide weekly to study all accross Europe.

Me? I walk about 10 mins from work to the Dojo

Kev

pearsquasher could you explain what you do during training to learn how to fight, is it punching and kicking the air like in some schools, if so does that not make you better only at punching air rather than fighting if sparring only teaches you how to spar.

There are a lot of threads about which art or training method is the best and the differences between sport and fighting but i still don't have an idea of what you guys actually do to learn how to fight so i would appreciate it if you could be as detailed as possible.

Seion

I'm sure Pearsquasher won't mind if I add my two yen here. The training method we use in the Bujinkan Dojo is the same one used in all styles of Japanese jujutsu. In fact, if you are categorising what we do, it would best be described as a stylised form of jujutsu.

(It’s probably worth saying that in Ireland and the UK, most people don’t really know what Jujutsu is – as there is a long history here of people mixing judo and karate/aikido and calling the result ‘jiujitsu’ and such like. There’s nothing necessarily wrong with that, it’s just a bit confusing when people start talking about jujutsu. Things have recently become more confusing with people practicing Brazilian Jiujitsu – so the term is used in three ways).

We don’t punch the air. Instead training is based around kata and henka. Again, it’s also worth mentioning that we mean something different by the word kata than most Irish martial artists would understand. In the more common arts found in Ireland, the term kata is used to describe preset routines performed by a single person in response to imaginary opponents. However, the term kata is used by older jujutsu schools almost exclusively to describe preset techniques performed by at least two and sometimes more people. Probably two man drills would better convey the idea. Henka is a term used to describe variations.

Kata training starts out at a basic level with learning the technicalities of where to put your feet and hands etc - basically how to perform the movement. The next stage in this is developing some confidence in the movement, and learning the principle behind the kata and performing it more fluidly.

Each kata teaches a specific thing, and what’s important is the principle being taught, not the movement as such used to teach it. Next, the practitioner should be able to up the speed and intensity of the kata and at an advanced stage the kata can be broken, or changed and adapted. Again, what’s important is the principle contained in the kata, not the kata itself, so we will change the attack or add a weapon and explore the principle in that context.

This method is not unique to us by any means, all old style jujutsu and weapons arts use it, as do the majority of close quarter battle military style unarmed combat training. It does incorporate resisting attackers – if you can’t do it to someone who doesn’t want you to, it’s not budo – but we don’t do this at the outset of training.

We do some sparring, but not much, basically because we believe that real fighting involves committed attacks which are not suited to sparring type situations. Other people and arts have different ideas and that’s important - vive le difference!

Sparring can be useful for isolating specific skill sets, but by its nature what we practice is dangerous and in order to make it safe to spar you would have to remove a lot of it. We do some weapon sparring because that can lend itself more readily to that practice with the use of padded weapons. There you go, that’s our training methodology. We do it and enjoy it, but you’ll notice I’m not commenting on anyone else’s .

Kev

As the definition of dangerous techniques varies from art to art could you give some examples of techniques that are to dangerous to use in sparing, are they things like eye gouges and groin strikes or are there any techniques that you consider too dangerous but would be used in sparring in other arts like mma.
For moves like eye gouges, how are these trained in kata.

Could you explain what you mean by commited attacks, when a boxer tries to punch his sparring partner in the face is that not a commited attack or are you reffering to the dangerous techniques which cant be used in sparring.

When sparring do you limited the type of attacks and counters i.e. sparring striking only, then sparring throwing or is it all together, what happen if one or both of you go to the ground, do you continue or start again standing, does each person have a goal, a way to "win".

Seion

It would be probably be better for the purposes of this conversation to say that the Bujinkan doesn’t practice sparring. Occasionally, in my club we play around with it, but we don’t pursue it in the way your queries imply.

As for dangerous techniques, they are things designed to use gravity or body weight to damage the opponent. We also don’t separate weapon use from unarmed practice and that brings with it a host of safety related difficulties. In relation to things like eye gouges, in kata form they are practiced carefully, (but they don’t appear that often).

I understand where you are going with the line of argument presented in your queries, and to an extent I respect it, but you must also respect that different arts have different ideas about training methodologies and that can be a good rather than a bad thing. I am more than happy to answer sincere questions relating to how we do things in the Bujinkan Dojo, but I am less interested in taking part in a tired debate that really boils down to a difference of opinion.

Kev

Do you think some sparring could be beneficial in addition to the kata, although you would have to restrict some of the more dangerous moves the ones you can use should see some improvement, or do you think it would just be a waste of time.

Colm_OReilly

Seion,

Thanks for the definitions of what you mean by Kata etc. It realy helps as I've found 99% of the time internet discussions fall down because of different definitions. A few questions please to clarify:

However, the term kata is used by older jujutsu schools almost exclusively to describe preset techniques performed by at least two and sometimes more people. Probably two man drills would better convey the idea.

If they are preset drills how can there be a resisting opponent? You mentioned:

It does incorporate resisting attackers – if you can’t do it to someone who doesn’t want you to, it’s not budo – but we don’t do this at the outset of training.

When do you add the resistance? Is this after 5-10 minutes of compliant practicing or after a few years? Thanks. What specifically do you mean by resistance? Again, not trying to get picky but I just want to make sure we're on the same wavelength. I'm sure you won't mind.

As for dangerous techniques, they are things designed to use gravity or body weight to damage the opponent.

Can you clarify please? To me an armbar, a takedown etc would use gravity and bodyweight?

I understand where you are going with the line of argument presented in your queries, and to an extent I respect it, but you must also respect that different arts have different ideas about training methodologies and that can be a good rather than a bad thing. I am more than happy to answer sincere questions relating to how we do things in the Bujinkan Dojo, but I am less interested in taking part in a tired debate that really boils down to a difference of opinion.

Seion, your posts are very very clear and thank you for that. I find that by learning about different styles and training methods, we can improve ours, learn and grow, and get some friends out of this board. So I want to once again say thanks for taking the time to answer.

Krispie,

I strongly advise to take a trip to Point Blank Submissions. They train in NUI Galway. Mark Leonard, head coach there, is a great guy and I'm sure you'd enjoy the training environment.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

Walsingham

What I have found interesting in the years that I have messing around in martial arts is the amount of times I have seen this or a similar argument between different martial arts.

When I was young I did Aikido (I was really young at the time) but after "The Karate Kid" came out everybody and their dog wanted to do Karate. Brief and onesided discussion with my old man ( I was only about 6,7) ended with him going there are no good arts just good people but if you want to do something good take up Judo.

Dropped Aikido, as who the hell had heard of it anyway, and tried to find a Karate club, unsuccessfully. Years passed and I fluted around with everything that I could find. Never found one that I thought was particularly good. By the time I hit my teens I started looking in earnest again. At the time Tae Kwon Do was all the rage. It was being advertised as "deadly" and it looked really cool. Everybody in my school was doing Tae Kwon do and spent a lot of time trying to kick each other in increasing spectacular ways.

Steven Segal appeared on the scene and he did the mysterious art of "Aikido" (Damn ! Should have stayed at that!) Then came kick boxing and I just had to have a go at that. Spent a few months at that and ended up with a (thankfully) non permanent injury to my knee. This and the leving cert but and end to my martial arts pursuits and any other sporting endeavour bar playing Street Fighter 2 and Mortal Kombat. For a while anyway.

Partly out of desire to something martial like and partly out of a desire to rehabilitate I took up Tai Chi. Middle of the 90's Tai Chi was rapidly becoming the new kid on the block. I did Yang style by myself for a while which helped me to recover fully and get mobility into my leg again and then went to look for a training group. Found a chinese martial arts group that seemed to do just about everything,(Kung fu, Tai Chi, Chi kung, and the rest) an treid that for about 5 years. But left as although the guys from England were hell on wheels (or seemed to be to me at the time) the guy in charge in Ireland was not the best. So while still training at this, began looking around again.

All the time when I was a kid and a teen tried stuff out on the old man and ended up on my ass as I got thrown by some kind of Judo throw.

At this point I found a book on Bujinkan. It was one that was actually by Hatsumi. So I got it out and like all enterprising young men a friend and I tried to do the techniques on one another from what we saw in the book. Then being a real ass hole I went down to my Tai Chi club and did some stuff on my instructor. And by and large they worked, even from my primitive understanding of them. Except on my old man who still dumped me on my ass. What was interesting for me as well was the overall approach the bujinkan seemed to have they took a big view and adapted like hell. I knew and still know a lot of military types and the evasions, escapes and camoflage stuff looked to me like things that were very feasible and had been advanced upon by the military today.

So of to Bujinkan I went. My first instructor was really good. When he hit you you went down even when you wer acting the dick and you just couldnt get round him. My current instructor is the same. I am taller than him and possibly stronger but even when I am throwing my fastest punch and going flat out ( I have boxed in the past and still practice the drills but have not sparred in years) he still nails me. With swords or weapons I do not stand a chance. My old man can still dump me on my ass, but He has a much harder time of it now and I have taken up Judo to sort that out.

What I have learned is that there really are no good or better arts just good people. I have been lucky that all of the instructors I have had in the past 7 years of training have been able to walk the walk. Nearly all of the established instructors in the Bujinkan have dan grades in Shotokan, Judo, Tae Kwon Do or were boxers. Any martial artist worth anything will make every effort to make their art their own. They will try stuff out with fully resisting partners and push stuff out. Nearly every technique out there works in context. I have seen guys sent flying buy guys who do push hands.

Anyone who doubts the effectiveness of Tai Chi should go and train with Dr. Yang when he is in Ireland. Anyone who doubts the effectiveness of Bujinkan could train with the guys in Ireland (I have no experience of the BBD) or if they were more adventerous go to Japan and look up a man by the name of Nagato or any of the Japanese Shihan. (Nagato was a Japanese Judo champion and a Kick boxer in of some note) (This is as far as I know). There is even a guy over there who trains fighters for K1 who regualrly trains with Hatsumi.

Mind you I have also heard that it would not be fun to mess with Gen. Choi either.

While I was in Japan. I saw a really old guy who was teaching a Shorinji Kempo class which as you may know is one of the more heavy weight styles of Karate. He was the grand master I found out later.When I left the place where I was training I passed and old man who was dressed in seventies style clothes and wore plastic sandals. I walked by him with out a second thought, but it was the same guy I saw on the mat earlier with rather a lot of speed and skill for an old man. God help the unsuspecting mugger I thought. That is what most interactions with a competent martial artist will be like. (I hope) The first indication the guy has of your skill is when he is waking up with a bemused/confused look on his face. The majority of martial artists I know have no real desire to test their skill beyond the bounds of the mat. When they hit a certain point of proficency they don't even need to test them on the mat.

The other evening I had another old man with a back injury, an arm injury who dropped 10 kg and 15 cm's to me throw me around like a rag doll for 10 mins. He didn't injure me but I don't need to fall on my face from own shoulder height to know that even on mats thats going to sting. It was not that he could not bring the techniques to their full conclusion either. As if both my feet are a foot of the ground it takes very little force to do that.

Why did this old guy take apart a guy who was physically better than him in all aspects? Because he was more skilled. He had practiced for over 40 years, but he has never once had what he would call a real fight. He has never had to pull out all the physical or psychological stops and he has always got something in reserve.

This has been my experience also in the Bujinkan with skilled practioners. You can go as fast and as hard as you like with and weapon or attck that you like and you still get smeared.

At the end of the day my mind has been made up. I know the stuff works. I am also big enough to say that if I was to try to prove this I may fail. The fault would lie with me not with the system the teaching method or the philisophy. The buck would stop with me. I am not above being an idiot and I have been lucky so far not to have been punished too badly for mistakes that I have made. I am also far from even an average martial artist and I know zip about fighting. (In terms of soemone going out of their way to do you real and permanent damage) My view should be percieve accordingly.

My only real lesson has been that no matter what the art you do is if you are enjoying it, continue to do it as long as you are enjoying it and it is meeting your needs. Training methods come and go in and out of fashion. Some one who is really good is just that really good and can adapt what they have to suit their situation and really punish you not matter what art they do.

(All father son interactions were/are done in good humoured spirit, no fathers or sons were permanently damaged in the making of this e-mail, neither were any old men)

Seion

When do you add the resistance? Is this after 5-10 minutes of compliant practicing or after a few years? Thanks. What specifically do you mean by resistance? Again, not trying to get picky but I just want to make sure we're on the same wavelength. I'm sure you won't mind.

The answer to this depends on the skill of the person – if they are experienced, then it can be within five or ten minutes, but if they are not, then it’s usually not very productive. (It would be more representative to say years in most cases, as it takes a long time to learn Bujinkan taijutsu well.)

By resistance I mean the person is trying not to let you do the technique on them, however, I suspect we may be using this word differently. I do not mean resistence in the context of a free sparring environment.

Kata start from a predetermined attack. The nature of the style of taijutsu (body art – this is an old term for jujutsu) is that kata tend to operate in a structured manner – in other words each segment of the technique will build on the last one and work from the perspective of structural restriction. The goal is to minimise opportunities for the other guy to defend himself, and where there are openings in the movement, to be aware of them and guarded. When the technique is done at speed, there is usually no opportunity for the other person to resist, if it’s done well. They should be off balance and robbed of a base to generate power from.

By resistance I mean the training partner will initiate the movement in a preset way, but after that they will not be compliant. If you do the movement’s right, they should be efficiently controlled – if not, it won’t work and ideally, you should be able to move into a variation smoothly.

Weapon work tends to be similar – if we are working on a sword kata for example that involves defending yourself against someone trying to cut you with a sword, then you start learning the movement slowly and looking at distancing, timing and how to maintain a guarding position through the movement. When you are comfortable with that, then you can ask the training partner to go full speed, and again if you manipulate the situation properly, there shouldn’t be openings. If you don’t, you get hit hard - usually somewhere sore. (We use padded sword for this, in case that’s not obvious ).

I don’t think sparring is a bad thing – I can see benefits – but again, I reiterate, to each their own. If you are happy with where you are and what you are doing, that’s great. Sometimes people come to my club to watch classes and if they express an interest in competitive martial arts, I tell them they should do MMA, as they would probably enjoy it. If they are looking for self defence I tell them that there are faster and better ways to learn to defend yourself – Bujinkan can of course be used for self defence and I know a lot of people who have used it in life threatening situations - but it’s a study in itself and there are faster ways to learn that.

In fact, I think if you only study martial arts for self defence, it’s quite a poor use of time. It takes time to become competent in fighting - often years and even decades – yet most average people aren’t attacked very often if at all. Most violent situations are avoidable, and if that’s all you’re worried about, then you would be better off taking the beating and spending the four or so hours a week on something more interesting. Not many people want to hear that though. Funny, eh?