Should "Vodka in a Sachet" be banned?

shurl

vinnyfitz wrote:

Not sure if this qualifies but its all Google offered me:

http://www.anewdrink.com/

sort of wierd....

SORT of wierd? :eek:

If that is the company, whoever wrote that was "sampling the merchandise".
:-)

seamus

Flukey wrote:

This is a dangerous development. It would be much easier for teenagers to conceal these and bring them into discos and nightclubs. They could also be used to spike drinks.

If people are running nightclubs, there are 3 groups with responsibility for ensuring that they do not bring them in - The Off-Licence Owner, The nightclub, and the parents. By the same logic, we should ban naggins of vodka, since they're easily concealed in a purse, or a big jacket. It would also be way way way way easier to buy a shot of vodka at a bar, and plop into into someone's drink, than carefully manouver a sachet into position inconspicuously and drop it cleanly into a drink, with no spillage.

This of course would not help that. You are no more likely to remember how many of these that you have drunk than you are any form of drink. It would be harder to keep count of how many of these you have taken. Wehn people are out on the piss they don't keep a record of how many drinks they have had.

I disagree, but I don't think it will make it any easier to count. Excepting that someone might buy 8, and go to a house party, they can say they drank 5 of them, rather than making a vague measurment with two fingers and saying "I drank this much of a bottle".

If anything they are more likely to lead to more dangerous drinking than his claims. This is all to do with profit and nothing to do with safety.

Yep, all to do with profit. The VFI's profit. If these things actually take off, the VFI will be out of all that massive markup they stick on spirits, so they've taken to bullying our Government in the interests of "public order". It's a disgrace.

If they even attempt to ban these, then they'll have to ban all alcoholic drinks.

Gurgle

Its a non-issue.
Back in my day*, boys drank beer, girls drank ritz. If you didn't like beer or ritz, there was vodka & orange or cider. I've never heard anyone suggesting that these be banned.

If it means less broken glass on the street, thats good enough for me.
Actually, if the vinters cartel is against it, I'm for it.

*Not really all that long ago.

joe_chicken

syke wrote:

As for the issue of kids getting hold of the sachets? Well if you ask me thats a matter for the Gardai and Off Licences to deal with and also, to no small degree, the parents.
I love the way this countries answer to avoiding extra responsability to key groups is to ban something.

agreed!

we should give them all guns too and when kids start shooting themselves we can blame the gardai.. o yeah and the parents too!

(p.s. im not against the sachets, i just think thats a stupid argument)

Hagar

Cheap? At €1.50 for 30ml thats 25 measures per standard bottle.
That puts the bottle at €37.50 !!!
Shag that, I'm off to LIDL for a bottle of their best p!ss at about 12 eurons a lash.

seamus

joe_chicken wrote:

agreed!

we should give them all guns too and when kids start shooting themselves we can blame the gardai.. o yeah and the parents too!

(p.s. im not against the sachets, i just think thats a stupid argument)

Um, how is that relevant. If guns were sold like alcohol was, then yes it would be an issue for Gardai and parents....

Hagar wrote:

Cheap? At €1.50 for 30ml thats 25 measures per standard bottle.
That puts the bottle at €37.50 !!!
Shag that, I'm off to LIDL for a bottle of their best p!ss at about 12 eurons a lash.

More cheap from the POV of bars. If they were sold over the bar, they work out €3 cheaper than a normal shot.

GuanYin

joe_chicken wrote:

agreed!

we should give them all guns too and when kids start shooting themselves we can blame the gardai.. o yeah and the parents too!

(p.s. im not against the sachets, i just think thats a stupid argument)

I see Seamus got my answer in ahead of me so I'll ask you this...

Who exactly is "giving" kids alcohol? (seeing as your analogy has people "giving" kids guns).

Who is responsible for the behaviour of the kids and ensuring that alcohol (or indeed guns, as both are illegal for distribution to minors) isn't "given" (or even "sold") to kids.

Lemme see, that'd be the drinks company?...No...who could it be? Hrmmm

Oh wait, its the Off Licence's...... the Gardai and ...... the parents.....

:rolleyes:

joe_chicken

seamus wrote:

Um, how is that relevant. If guns were sold like alcohol was, then yes it would be an issue for Gardai and parents....

so what your sayin is: if something is dangerous to children let the parents or the gardai worry about it!

bullsh1t!

seamus

joe_chicken wrote:

so what your sayin is: if something is dangerous to children let the parents or the gardai worry about it!

bullsh1t!

No....
What I'm saying is, if something is dangerous to kids, then we legislate to protect those children from obtaining it, but allowing adults to obtain it. At that point its up to the parents, retailers and Gardai to enforce the law and ensure the child cannot bypass the law.

Society should not be limited because some people fail in their duty of care.

GuanYin

joe_chicken wrote:

so what your sayin is: if something is dangerous to children let the parents or the gardai worry about it!

bullsh1t!

Just about everything could be dangerous to children if mis-used. Thats why we have laws restricting the sale of certain substances to minors.

Of course, is you are arguing that these laws don't or shouldn't be there to protects us, then the case you make applies to all alcohol, drugs, medications, weapons, cigarettes etc etc

Children being allowed to sit in a pub drinking all night is dangerous to children, but you don't ban alcohol? You ensure that the publicans, parents and gardai stop children drinking in pubs.

Off Sale alcohol is the same, only off licence holders replace publicans in the equation.

Unless you are suggesting we ban all alcohol, your argument makes no sense as it ignores th elaws in place to regulate the sale of alcohol to minors.

joe_chicken

syke wrote:

I see Seamus got my answer in ahead of me so I'll ask you this...

Who exactly is "giving" kids alcohol? (seeing as your analogy has people "giving" kids guns).

Who is responsible for the behaviour of the kids and ensuring that alcohol (or indeed guns, as both are illegal for distribution to minors) isn't "given" (or even "sold") to kids.

Lemme see, that'd be the drinks company?...No...who could it be? Hrmmm

Oh wait, its the Off Licence's...... the Gardai and ...... the parents.....

:rolleyes:

if something is potentially dangerous for children, as some people believe these sachets are, then i think its everyones concern

seamus

joe_chicken wrote:

if something is potentially dangerous for children, as some people believe these sachets are, then i think its everyones concern

The necessary controls are already in place. The. Sachets. Are. Alcoholic. Drinks. They. Will. Be. Sold. Only. In. Off-Licences. To. Adults.

What's the difference?

GuanYin

joe_chicken wrote:

if something is potentially dangerous for children, as some people believe these sachets are, then i think its everyones concern

Dammit, seamus is quicker than me again.

I'm not sure I can figure out which part of the legislation involving the prohibition of the sale of alcohol to minors that you don't understand.

Or to put a finer point on it, which part of the legislation you seem to think relates to the companies choice of packaging and its effect in allowing the sale of alcohol to minors.

Gurgle

joe_chicken wrote:

if something is potentially dangerous for children, as some people believe these sachets are, then i think its everyones concern

Are you worried that kids experimenting with alcohol are going to choke on the sachets ?

I think they come with instructions.

joe_chicken

syke wrote:

Dammit, seamus is quicker than me again.

I'm not sure I can figure out which part of the legislation involving the prohibition of the sale of alcohol to minors that you don't understand.

Or to put a finer point on it, which part of the legislation you seem to think relates to the companies choice of packaging and its effect in allowing the sale of alcohol to minors.

no no no...

you miss my point... so i'll repeat

if something is potentially dangerous for children, as some people believe these sachets are, then i think its everyones concern

Boggle

joe_chicken wrote:

so what your sayin is: if something is dangerous to children let the parents or the gardai worry about it!

This is a behavioural problem and should be treated as such. Changing the wrapper doesn't create the problem ... IT WAS ALREADY THERE!

Anyway these things would be bloody awkward to carry around in any large quantity and not to forget when you get too drunk they'll prob spill when opened. Unlike a bottle which they can share - ending up in a drinking competition and which can then be readily used as a weapon when pissed.

Which wraper is more dangerous: glass or plastic????

GuanYin

joe_chicken wrote:

no no no...

you miss my point... so i'll repeat

if something is potentially dangerous for children, as some people believe these sachets are, then i think its everyones concern

So you think over the counter medicines should be banned I take it.

If a child takes excessive amounts they are potentially dangerous and of course there is no prohibition on their purchase.

Sale of cigarettes should be banned too, prescription pharmaceuticals, solvent spray cans, glue, alco-pops, alcohol in containers less than 1 litre in size (also appealing to kids apparently). Maybe even soft drinks as kids use them as mixers so they encourage alcoholic consumption?

If you make tha arguement for vodka in a sachet it applies to all the other stuff too (except maybe the soft drinks, I was just taking the piss outta you there).

Or maybe, we can avoid imposing some drachonian prohibitionist state and just expect alcohol retailers, law enforcers and parents to do their jobs?

Corben Dallas

NO

these will still be sold in Offies and not to under 18's etc.

I think the VFI are against them because there no way in hell that u'll get it € 1.50 a shot (theres no mark up in them)

unless the publicans charge €1.50 for the sachet and €2 for the glass of water, Result!
(* Im assuming that u mix it with water or maybe u get a red lolly to dip it into?)
MMMmmmmm Vodka Shebert!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Stark

Back to Puritism I say. Out with stained glass windows in churches and what the hell are those tall thin things with the little flames on top and coloured to attract children doing there? Oh and prohibition too, for God's sake think of the children!!

Scruff

if underage kids are going to start drinking with drink from an offie its not because there is vodka avaliable in sachets. Its because either
a) they know someone of the legal age who will buy them alcohol
b) the person behind the counter doesnt ask for id or deliberitely breaks the law by selling to underage kids
c) they've got a fake id that the person in the offie accepts
(ahh the memories....)

the fact its in a sachet is not the problem. the problem is if they have access to alcohol that they shouldnt.

sceptre

joe_chicken wrote:

no no no...

you miss my point... so i'll repeat

if something is potentially dangerous for children, as some people believe these sachets are, then i think its everyones concern

Everyone's concern? Yup. let's make sure these are only sold in off-licences to those who are over 18 and of legal age to drink then.


Hold on, isn't that what we're doing?

vinnyfitz

From RTE this evening
Govt may look at tax move against vodka drink

02 September 2004 17:59

The Minister for Health Micheál Martin has said that the Government may look at taxation measures to try to deal with a vodka-in-a-sachet product introduced into the Irish market.

Mr Martin said that trying to ban such products posed problems but, as in the case of alcopops, increased taxation on these drinks have had an impact.

He said he would encourage publicans not to stock the product and he expressed concern about how easily young people could conceal the sachets.

The Vodka Bullseye Baggies contain a 30ml shot of vodka and have been put on the market by US businessman Dr Joe Elia through his Dublin firm, the Little Drinks Company.

Separately, the National Off-Licence Association, which represents independent off-licences nationwide, has asked its members to refuse to stock or sell the sachets.

The association says it is committed to responsible marketing of alcoholic products and considers the sachets to be an inappropriate addition to its product range.

Earlier, the Vintners' Federation of Ireland urged its members not to stock the new product.

The chairman of the Vintners' Federation in Galway, Paul O'Grady, called on the Minister for Justice Michael McDowell to make an immediate order banning its sale before it gets into off-licences around the country.

Mr McDowell has already said he has 'serious concerns' about the introduction of such a product to the market.

The Little Drinks Company says it is targeting women in their 20s and 30s who might like to use the new product for home entertainment.

flogen

I havent read the entire thread, but I would like to point something out.

newstalk just had someone on their news bullitten from MEAS giving out about the drink, and encouraging publicans not to stock it.
Is it because they care about young people, and see this as a way for them to get their hands on drink?
Well, look at this:http://www.meas.ie/about3.php, the details of the backers of the group and see what you think. Would it be completely obscene of me to suggest that they are pissing themselves at the idea of a low cost product coming into the market and causing them hastle? Surely not!!

As for young people being able to drink more, I think we can all understand how its a sad fact of Ireland that you dont need sachets to get drink. Be it on tap, in can, bottle, bag, bucket, keg, Young people will get their hands on drink, some of the blame falls in the companies hands, and the way they sell and market their drinks, but a lot of it falls in the hands of off licences and pubs you sell it to children.
I find it a tad bit hypocritical to see a contingent of drinks companies complaining about a drink that may be used by children, when most of their ad's are angled at the youth market.
I'll wait until I see the ad campaigns and the way the company handles itself, then I'll decide if they are exploiting the underage market or not. Until then, its a novel idea, and MEAS and the PD's are just giving it free publicity.

flogen

passive

hmm... as far underage drinking is concerned it really is a non issue. since it's considerably more expensive than buying the vodka in bulk, teens (like myself) won't buy it for drinking out and, since they're not allowed into pubs anyway, they won't be sneaking it in there and causing the barmen financial concern.possibly a slight concern for discos etc but if they have no trouble buying the drink then the medium of the drink is almost completely irellevant!

it may be a concern where 18+'s are concerned re: sneaking it into pubs but that's purely a financial worry so shut up about the children

sceptre

flogen wrote:

Well, look at this:http://www.meas.ie/about3.php, the details of the backers of the group and see what you think. Would it be completely obscene of me to suggest that they are pissing themselves at the idea of a low cost product coming into the market and causing them hastle? Surely not!!

I didn't realise that MEAS was set up by/backed by the breweries. As always, when you want to examine whether an organisation has hidden motives, look at their funding. Now I'm not accusing MEAS of being a group set up by the drinks companies so that the government wouldn't set up their own group. It may even be true that MEAs was set up by companies actually determined to make sure their product was enjoyed only by adults and enjoyed responsibly. However, if they're still taking money from the drinks companies (and they are) and they're actually an umbrella group for the drinks companies (and based on the page flogen posted from their site they appear to be), they've potentially got all the credibility of the Transport Users Group for me. You're not really independent if you're beholden to someone with a vested interest for your cash.

flogen

sceptre wrote:

I didn't realise that MEAS was set up by/backed by the breweries. As always, when you want to examine whether an organisation has hidden motives, look at their funding. Now I'm not accusing MEAS of being a group set up by the drinks companies so that the government wouldn't set up their own group. It may even be true that MEAs was set up by companies actually determined to make sure their product was enjoyed only by adults and enjoyed responsibly. However, if they're still taking money from the drinks companies (and they are) and they're actually an umbrella group for the drinks companies (and based on the page flogen posted from their site they appear to be), they've potentially got all the credibility of the Transport Users Group for me. You're not really independent if you're beholden to someone with a vested interest for your cash.

without taking things off topic, there was a bit of uproar when they appeared first, supposedly their booklet (which was given to school children) blatently encourages drinking, but "maturely". Its all in the name, Mature Enjoyment of Alcohol in Society, certaintly not an anti-alcohol group (not that I would be looking for that).
I think the booklet is on their site, must read it some time. What always makes me suspicious of orgs. like this is how you have to do the looking to find out their motives. I would have just assumed they were a pressure group until I checked it out. At least the "Dont see a great night wasted" ad's let you know a large drinks company are behind it, this isn't so clear cut.

flogen

K!LL!@N

The main thing that gets me about this product is the attitude of Dr. Elia.
Let's drop the act here, who does he think he's kidding?
In no way is he out to help people with their alcohol consumption.
He's out to make money.

He's worked in casualty wards here, he's seen the state people get themselves into and he thinks popping the booze in a satchet is going to stop this?
The kind of people that end up in hospitals after a night on the booze are gonna end up there whether they've gotten their drink from a bottle or from a sachet.
They'd be hard set to count the fingers on their hands never mind the amount of sachets they've consumed during the night.

As for the warnings on the sachet, they're really going to remind people to drink sensibly.
Yeah right!
They'll be ignored in the same way that warnings are ignored on cigarettes.
They're there as a token gesture at the most, let's show the people we really care about them, blah, blah, blah.

As for the argument about kids getting it.
Well kids will always get alcohol, that's just a fact in this country.
If they want it, they'll get it.
Whether it comes from a bottle or a sachet is irrelevent.
I don't know that that will ever change in this country.

As for smuggling it into pubs/clubs etc.
Well it serves the publicans right.
Let them lower their prices and stop ripping people off.
Competition is a good thing.
I doubt very much that off-licences will pass on this product, there's such a market for it.
Off-licence sales have grown substantially in recent times what with the price of drink in pubs and the smoking ban.

Selling this in pubs wouldn't be a bad thing either.
It'd make the bar staff's jobs easier, someone orders vodka and coke - here's your sachet of vodka, here's your coke.
No messing about with measures and bottles etc.

This Elia guy must be loving all this attention.
Free advertising, everyone talking about it, nice one!
No better way to launch a product.
You only have to look back to the furore about alcopops and now look in any fridge in any pub in the country.
The only thing the vintners and publicans care about are their bank balances.

Killian

Cabaal

"Won't anyone please think of the children?"

In fairness this is a joke, most kids that start drinking use Bullmers & other Ciders, yes some use Vodka but as ever-one's said already its cheaper to buy in bulk.

The Gov and VFI would have been better off to ignore this whole thing and nothing would have come of it.

Jetpilot

I havent read every post here, but have gathered a kinda feeling that people think this will create an atmosphere of underage drinking or people bringing in drinks into pubs. As someone who works in an off licence I would like to say that, firstly these sachets would be only sold in offys (afaik) and therefore minors shouldnt get served these, and if a minor looks old enough to get served i doubt he's gonna buy a few sachets as opposed to a bottle, or 14 cans of tuborg! Secondly baby vodka's have been available for years, starting at 1.85 for a baby smirnoff, which is just as easy to sneak into a pub, and as they range from 50ml to 71ml so they would be on par with the sachets, the only difference is that these sachets somehow seem marketed towards sneaking them into the pub which seems to be causing all the trouble.