Future Of IOFFL - Where's the Debate?

DonegalMan

In only 9 days time, IOFFL is holding an EGM to decide if the organisation has a future and, if so, what shape that future should be.

The debate about this is totally ... underwhelming

I'm sure the committee are beavering away on their proposals in the background but are we, the ordinary members, not prepared to step up to the line and give our input?

C'mon people, lets get as many views and ideas as possible - I've already posted some from the North West in another thread.

Martin

Mr_Man

Hi Martin,

if I were not planning to attend the EGM I'd certainly be taking the opportunity to provide my input via the boards. Since I am going to attend I believe that its more efficient for me to put my views forward at the meeting.

Perhaps others feel the same way and that is why there is a lack of online debate ?

M.

Ripwave

DonegalMan wrote:

In only 9 daytime, IOFFL is holding an EGM to decide if the organisation has a future and, if so, what shape that future should be.

The debate about this is totally ... underwhelming

What is there to debate? There doesn't seem to be anyone proposing that IOFFL go away anymore. (The proposal seems to come entirely from the old committee).

The question of what IOFFL should do and be in the future is valid, but it seems that that debate should probably be lead by the interim committee, especially if they really do intend to be an interim commitee, and don't become the new committee by default.

C Fodder

New committee, new ideas, new gripes, new reinforcements to the battle cause the war has yet to be won. What's there to debate about except how to win.

damien

Why not use your notes from the North West meeting and use that as something to start a debate here. I posted them below.

People should list out what they want IrelandOffline to tackle and possibly areas they think IrelandOffline should not tackle. There are many many issues that need to be tackled but I'm not sure a voluntary organisation can cover everything. Maybe people should list the 5 most important issues (in order of priority) and then suggest additional areas.


The Survey results will be presented on the day too which hopefully if the workaholic JWT has done out will show what the 1200ish respondents think are the major areas to look into.

I'm going to try and have the committee post an agenda tomorrow evening at the latest so people can see what is going to get covered at the EGM.

DonegalMan wrote:

A) OVERALL VIEW OF IOFFL

Should IOFFL Remain in Business?
Yes. A lot has been achieved but there is still much to be done. IOFFL has achieved an almost unbelievable profile with and level of respect from the media, the politicians and the general IT industry in Ireland. It has provided a mechanism where the ordinary user can bring forward their problems and their opinions. The organisation is too important to be allowed to fade away at this vital time when Internet access in Ireland is drifting further and further behind the rest of the world.

Should IOFFL become a 'Watchdog' type organisation?
No - at least not at this stage. The original objective of IOFFL was "Affordable Internet access for all " - this has still not been achieved an and should remain the objective.

Whilst IOFFL have been successful in achieving FRIACO, this is now yesterdy's technology. Broadband is now the only acceptable form of Internet Access, yet only a tiny minority of Irish Users have access to Broadband.

How should IOFFL go forward?
There are a number of ways that IOFFL can go about its objectives. The exact methods to be used will be determined largely by the IOFFL committee and will be influenced by their own ideas and aspirations.

The fundamental structure of IOFFL as a cyber organisation means that the IOFFL membership has always left a significant level of freedom to the committee and this is likely to continue. The most important thing at the EGM, therefore, is to get a committee in place that will put in the time and effort and will work towards the objectives in a way that is broadly acceptable to the membership.

Our collective views on areas the new committee should tackle are given below.


SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS

• The Media
  Our profile with the media seems to have slipped a bit, we need to get it restored. In the early days of IOFFL, the mainstream media were not greatly interested in Ireland's 'Internet story'. Now they are and we have to milk this for all it's worth. It is ridiculous that the radio stations have let Eircom get away with their policy of not appearing on any show where IOFFL have a representative, this must exposed and stopped. It was great to see the coverage on RTE News the other night but we need to get the story moved on from a late night filler to a prime time slot.
  
  
• The Politicians
  We need to restore our relationships with the politicians and - perhaps even more important - the people who advise them.
  
  Whilst we might criticise individual aspects of Government action, they have shown a greater awareness of and willingness to address the problems. The recent Dáil report has a few holes in it but, overall, its script could have been written by IOFFL - it is a realistic assesment of how bad the current situation is and is a damning indictment of the Telco's, particularly Eircom.
  
  Where the Government seems to struggle is coming up with realistic solutions rather than throwing yet more money at yet more fibre.
  
  Dermot Aherne has put a lot of work into improving Internet access, he is likely to move in the Autumn reshuffle so IOFFL should get in and meet with him before that so that we have an entrée into the next Minister.
  
  
• ComReg
  We are totally dissatisfied with the role and performance of ComReg. This body is needed, however, and we can't just whine and moan about it. We need to determine what the real problem is - do Comreg not have the teeth they need or do they just not effecively use the ones they have have? - and work on this with both the Media and the Politicians.
  
  
• The Telco's
  Trying to get anywhere with the major telco's is a waste of time. Eircom have shown no appetite for accepting the changes that are happening in the world of communications, they are only interested in holding on as long as possible to current revenue generating activities. EsatBT seem to have lost any desire to try to change the situation and have settled into the role of picking up the crumbs from Eircom's table.
  
  We believe that IOFFL has to base its forward strategy on the assessment that Eircom is in a state of terminal decline and we should plan for its eventual demise. This assessment impacts two areas of activity:
  
  a) We must make a public outcry about any deterioration in the national infrastructure cause by Eircom's lack of investment.
  
  b) We should encourage other forms of Internet access
  .In regard to the latter, we feel that IOFFL has probably concentrated too much over the last year on local wireless groups as a single issue but we should not overreact by dropping it as an issue. These groups have now shown that they can work and that there is a real alternative to Eircom. We should do everything we can to make the media and the politicians more aware of this.
  
  One area we need to be careful about is that IOFFL does not leave itself open to any accusation of vested interest. We suggest therefore that anyone likely to be involved in any commercial way with the provision of wireless services to local groups should not be directly involved in the IOFFL committee.

jwt

damien.m wrote:

Why not use your notes from the North West meeting and use that as something to start a debate here. I posted them below.

People should list out what they want IrelandOffline to tackle and possibly areas they think IrelandOffline should not tackle. There are many many issues that need to be tackled but I'm not sure a voluntary organisation can cover everything. Maybe people should list the 5 most important issues (in order of priority) and then suggest additional areas.


The Survey results will be presented on the day too which hopefully if the workaholic JWT has done out will show what the 1200ish respondents think are the major areas to look into.

I'm going to try and have the committee post an agenda tomorrow evening at the latest so people can see what is going to get covered at the EGM.

I think I'm looking pretty relaxed and laid back in relation to Damien, however the agenda does need to be posted so we'll sort that out tomorrow morning and post here in the afternoon?

One thing people need to do rapidly is post here or mail IOFFL if they want someone to act as their proxy vote. If we don't have a record of your wish for a proxy someone claiming they represent 10 people will only get counted as one vote.

Committee members or well known poster/members preferred as proxies just for security reasons (don't want eircom employees turning up with a 1000 proxy vote do we?) but obviously we'll take it on a case by case basis. Please ensure you use or supply your email address that you used to register/join the mailing list if emailing IOFFL.

People who joined in from Monday 30th onwards cannot be or appoint a proxy. This may sound unfair, but its to stop someone acting the magot and registering 100 times under different names and email addresses and putting themselves forward as a proxy as well

On the day we can either use a spreadsheet to account for proxies or proxies will be given a card with the number of votes they represent to hold up and vote with. (will Elana score a perfect 10 we wonder)

Some of this stuff will be addressed at the meeting under the formalisation motion I am putting forward


Comments suggestions or put downs welcomed on the above, be nice
John

damien

jwt wrote:

One thing people need to do rapidly is post here or mail IOFFL if they want someone to act as their proxy vote. If we don't have a record of your wish for a proxy someone claiming they represent 10 people will only get counted as one vote.

Yeah once we get the EGM agenda put tomorrow we'll start another thread asking for people to nominate themselves for the committee. This thread will be linked on the EGM Agenda thread. Maybe another thread then for people saying who their proxy will be, people might post in the proxy thread too that they are going if people want them to be their proxy.

People who joined in from Monday 30th onwards cannot be or appoint a proxy.

Good idear that. But what about non boards people that are on the mailing list ?

jwt

We send them a mail stating the above

John

DonegalMan

jwt wrote:

One thing people need to do rapidly is post here or mail IOFFL if they want someone to act as their proxy vote. If we don't have a record of your wish for a proxy someone claiming they represent 10 people will only get counted as one vote.

Will it be specified in advance exactly what issues are going to be put to a vote on the day, or will people be asked to give a general power of proxy?

I'm thinking that there will probably be issues that arise on the day where it may be enough to have a consensus of the people actually present rather than having to count proxies for every single item.

jwt

I think, don't hold me to this, that the major motions that are announced today as part of the EGM agenda will be dealt with through the proxy system.

Smaller issues that arise on the day we'll deal with through a straight vote.

John

damien

DonegalMan wrote:

Will it be specified in advance exactly what issues are going to be put to a vote on the day, or will people be asked to give a general power of proxy?

The running order of the EGM will be posted later today and it will outline what the the voting will be on. But this is a blueprint. If people post what they'd like to see here we'll do our best to incorporate them. At the end of the day we serve you.

My own personal views about voting for our future directions is that we should not go into great details and have a vote for every area we want to cover or we'll never get out of Buswells. We need to pick areas to cover and also be thinking of areas where goals can be achieved. We need to show the members that we are making progress, even if the forward steps are small so a list of things we can achieve in the short to medium term are necessary..

The mechanics and nitty gritty of the areas to be covered can be fleshed out by the committee later. I know the existing committees handover will provide enough information for the new committee to make a detailed plan quickly. The plan can be posted on the forum and in a newsletter (apart from bits the committee feels should not be disclosed for a while in order to have advantage over certain groups )

So I think we should agree on a list, Martin the one you posted pretty much covers my thinking too. Have an option for the committee to expand or modify them if it is needed since things will crop up that we will not envision. The changes and additions will be communicated to the membership who will be asked to comment on them in the forum.

We shouldn't bog down the committee too much with what they can and cannot cover and make them ridgidly adhere to it. Besides if the committee remains as transparent as it has been of late and keeps getting the feedback from the membership I think they'll keep on track.

Anyway, we can always call for their heads if they don't cop on. I'm pretty positive this won't happen though.

vinnyfitz

It seems to me the biggest challenge at the EGM will be working out how to get and maintain peoples involvement after people leave Buswells.
Yes, the interim committee have been very good at reaching out to the membership over the last few weeks. This is essential if non committee people are going to have a clue about how they can help.
I'd suggest an agenda item on Saturday should be "How can we do more of this member involvement stuff, better, throughout the year?".

A second issue that IOFFL has avoided until now (rightly in my opinion) is what exactly is a "member"? But time has moved on and maybe the committee should make a proposal next weekend about real membership - rights and obligations e.g.:
a (low) annual membership fee,
a commitment to regular member updates from the committee and
an understanding that members will agree to help out in at least one part of the organisation's work.

jwt

It's a motion I will be proposing, formalising IOFFl.

Perhaps a leaf out of the HAM radio clubs?

John

damien

vinnyfitz wrote:

It seems to me the biggest challenge at the EGM will be working out how to get and maintain peoples involvement after people leave Buswells.

I think this is something that the new committee needs to work on, I'm not so sure it should be discussed at the EGM. There's a lot that needs to be covered. The running time already I'm guessing will be at least 2 hours.

If this was an open discussion we will be there for hours and that's just from me giving my views. I'm not negating the validity of this. It needs to be a major area for IrelandOffline. Without member interaction we'll lose.

Much like the way the Dept of Comms sends policy directives to ComReg I think the membership should direct the committee do enact this.

Then the committee can come up with how they are going to do this and inform the membership and get feedback.

Unlike ComReg the IOFFL committee will do it and make a good job of it.

But time has moved on and maybe the committee should make a proposal next weekend about real membership - rights and obligations e.g.:
a (low) annual membership fee,
a commitment to regular member updates from the committee and
an understanding that members will agree to help out in at least one part of the organisation's work.

It's definetly worthwhile discussing this. But like the other point above, time contraints will mean the discussion is rushed or we simply won't have it.

Again I'd point to the membership sending a directive to the new committee to formulate a consultation with the existing membership about routes to take.

DonegalMan

vinnyfitz wrote:

It seems to me the biggest challenge at the EGM will be working out how to get and maintain peoples involvement after people leave Buswells

I think we need to define exactly what we mean by involvement.

If we're talking about communications then that is not difficult to achieve, a regular newsletter or consultative document is all it takes (and it is vital that we get back to this practice).

Active involvement from the membership, however, is harder to achieve, most of them don't want to do too much, they are happier to just elect a committee they feel they can trust and let them get on with it. They will help out when asked to do something specific like the survey - or even put their hands in their pockets as they did at the time of the seminar - but very few of them want to get involved in committees or attend meetings. Out of 2000 members, how many will attend the EGM when the very existence of IOFFL is under threat? I suspect less than 50.

These comments are not meant in any critical or negative way, I'm just pointing out reality as I've experienced it over many years with IOFFL and other voluntary bodies, and the organisation can work fine as long as it understands this reality. Personally, I'd rather have it like this so that the committee can react to events quickly without having to go through a long-winded - if we hadn't had this sort of flexibility, we would never have achieved the success that IOFFL did in its first year of operation.

Most people who join voluntary bodies do so to give it moral support, what they want is a committee who will take on board the general views of the membership and get on with the job of achieving those views in whatever way they see fit, as long as the methods used are not too controversial.

DonegalMan

damien.m wrote:

I think this is something that the new committee needs to work on, I'm not so sure it should be discussed at the EGM.

I agree 100% with you.

IMO, there are only a few key issues to be decided at the EGM, the time should be spent debating these and getting on with the business of appointing a committee to act on them.

Paddy20

Yes, DonegalMan.

It is a sad fact of life. That most 'Apolitical i.e. Non-political ' voluntary not for profit campaigning organisations always suffer from a lack of pro-active mass membership action.

However, as long as an official democratically elected Committee exists, it is there to act on behalf of the membership and organisation:- 'as a whole'. 'A legal constitution is pretty vital in this respect'.

IMO people should be encouraged to register as official members and perhaps individual numbered membership cards issued to those who are willing to be listed as members. This helps develop a feeling of belonging to the organisation even though someone may not be able to become pro-active publicly for any number of reasons.

In the end, as long as the Committee has the support of say 1500 + members with the right to 'speak and act', on behalf of that membership. Then they have real power. As no media or state quango, or political party can afford to ignore this type of legally constituted and well established, highly respected, 'apolitical' voluntary organisation.

No member need then feel guilty in any way, if they can not be as pro-active as they would like. Just registering as a member is 'Empowering IrelandOffline's Committee', with the mass membership support it need's now, and into the foreseeable future.

jwt

The mailing list supposedly covers the membership part.

Card carrying members of the IOFFL party .........

Well I am happy enough to amend my motion to "The IOFFL committe will look to formalise IOFFL in the coming weeks with the result to be publicy announced for debate by the membership"

That leaves the nitty gritty bits to later. However I believe in this and will put the above motion forward. And if it is accepted I will be pushing the matter later.

Fair enough ?

John

damien

jwt wrote:

However I believe in this and will put the above motion forward. And if it is accepted I will be pushing the matter later.

I'll back ya.

Paddy20

JWT,

Fair enough with me, thanks.

Although, Quote: " The mailing list supposedly cover's the membership part " end quote.

AFAIK the mailing list use's 'anonymous* handle's', instead of 'Real' names, and I believe in the interest of credibility. Genuine member's should not be afraid to register using genuine real life name's, and if the official IOFFL numbered membership card motion is approved. Then at least member's will have the satisfaction of carrying their own personal card, and also knowing that they contributed in their own way to the future success of IOFFL's campaign's ?...

DonegalMan

jwt wrote:

Well I am happy enough to amend my motion to "The IOFFL committe will look to formalise IOFFL in the coming weeks with the result to be publicy announced for debate by the membership"

Fair enough with me too, John, I'll back that motion.

I have some opinions on this (surprise, surprise ) but we don't need that a distracting debate on that right now, and certainly not at the EGM.

DonegalMan

jwt wrote:

One thing people need to do rapidly is post here or mail IOFFL if they want someone to act as their proxy vote. If we don't have a record of your wish for a proxy someone claiming they represent 10 people will only get counted as one vote.

Comments suggestions or put downs welcomed on the above, be nice
John

FWIW, I'm not convinced about this whole proxy thing. I understand that we want to get as representative a vote as possible but I'm wondering now if it could be more trouble than it's worth.

Do we really need it?

Personally, I intend to be there but if something happens that I can't make it then it's my problem that I don't get to say my piece, not IOFFL's problem.

I don't want to be controversial on this but I'm just worried about the meeting getting tied down in nitty gritty procedural stuff and not giving enough time to the big issues.


Martin

Paddy20

Can I just ask if IOFFL adhere's to the normal 12 Month term of office for elected Committee member's/Officer's, as is the norm in most organisation's ?...

People naturally become exhausted and sometime's 'Burnt out' doing voluntary work which can be extremely demanding, both mentally and physically.

If a new Committee is not elected every 12 Month's. Then the serving Committee can become 'dead in the water' to a certain extent.

Naturally those already on the Committee are free to put their name's in to the hat for re-election, as often happen's.

Someone may like to continue on a Committee, but they may wish to be elected in to a different role on the Committee.

DonegalMan

Paddy20 wrote:

Can I just ask if IOFFL adhere's to the normal 12 Month term of office for elected Committee member's/Officer's, as is the norm in most organisation's ?

IOFFL has never had a formal constitution; there was quite a bit of effort put into drawing up something formal at one stage but it didn't really come to anything

AGM's and committee elections, however, have taken place every 12 months:

• 13th May 2001 - Formative meeting, temporary committe appointed, Howard Brittain appointed Temporary Chairman, later replaced by Martin Harran
  
• 21st July 2001 - First public meeting, existing committee formally elected, Chairman Martin Harran
  
• 2nd July 2002 - AGM, new committee elected, Chairman David Long.
  
• 26th July 2003 - AGM, new committee elected, Chairman Christian Cooke.
  
• 17th July 2004 - AGM, interim committee appointed until EGM in September, Chairman Adam Beecher.

I agree with your point about the danger of people becoming exhausted or burnt out and IMO it's good that we have had a succession of fresh faces at the top; whilst a number of people have served more than one term on the committee, there has also been a fair level of turnover.

dahamsta

Martin, FYI the proxies have been a big topic of discussion on the committee for the last few days, most notably the serious issues involved in implementing it. When we get consensus on how to go forward, we'll post about it. Obviously that'll probably be Monday evening.

adam

Paddy20

Martin,

Thank's for that. It is a shame that IOFFL has not yet* got a legal constitution. As having personally been involved with the formation of voluntary organisations over the years.

I am fully aware how important a constitution is !. Bank's very often will not even allow a voluntary Org to open a bank account in it's offical name unless a [written signed constitution] is produced, and the Committee has a minimum of 7 (Seven) formally elected officer's, with two offical signatorie's jointly authorised to sign cheques and other document's on behalf of the Org.

I remember the last time, I used the local 'Golf Club's' Constitution which they happily handed over 'Free of charge' and then our Solicitor only had to change the name and modify a few paragraph's and we had a written constitution, free of charge - as the Solicitor supported the voluntary group's aim's and aspiration's.

DonegalMan

dahamsta wrote:

Martin, FYI the proxies have been a big topic of discussion on the committee for the last few days

That worries me

I know from personal experience the amount of time that IOFFL activities can consume, especially coming up to something as important as the EGM.

I think there are more important things for you to be spending vour valuable (and valued) time on.

Martin

DonegalMan

Paddy20 wrote:

It is a shame that IOFFL has not yet* got a legal constitution.

As I said earlier, I have opinions on this but I'd rather go with JWT's motion and debate it after the EGM as I don't think it's the most important or urgent issue right now.

dahamsta

DonegalMan wrote:

That worries me

Not that big Martin.

DonegalMan

dahamsta wrote:

Not that big Martin.

Holy Jaysus! I've just noticed that is post number 8,564 by you - you obviously have more time on your hands than I realised

Martin

dahamsta

I know, it's sad...