Bloody end to Russia school siege

Redleslie2

bananayoghurt wrote:

i endorse any action to put an end to the premeditated and targeted murder of children which you appear to attempt to justify,

Would a few more operations like the one in some place called Katyr Yurt do the trick? Should the females be raped before being liquidated, in order to, I dunno, send a message to the rest of them or something?

You did say any action.

LegacyUser

Redleslie2 wrote:

Would a few more operations like the one in some place called Katyr Yurt do the trick? Should the females be raped before being liquidated, in order to, I dunno, send a message to the rest of them or something?

You did say any action.

hmm, i wonder why they would do something like that, it's not like 200 kids just got butchered by these guys ?

LegacyUser

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Okay then. Can you explain what you mean by "ending it"? Sounds kinda sinister.

ending the murder of kids sounds sinister, indeed

Rew

Poblachtach wrote:

From looking at TV,the Russians had no control of the scene did they?

It was a mess. Pretty much how not to run a counter terror operation like that. They didnt have a contingency plan to storm the building, no proper secrity cordon around the area, not enough medical staff on site to do triage, not enough ambulances, hostages wernt contaied as they came out and the soldiers were treating the whole thing like a regular military operation instead of a hostage rescue.

elivsvonchiaing

Putin has been getting a hammering here from many. Just one thought that has occured to me is how worse it would be if Zhirinovski was in charge - or worse takes charge (though highly unlikely).

We would be looking at lake Chechnya imho

LegacyUser

Redleslie2 wrote:

I don't think he's being racist, sort of fascist maybe, but condoning fascism is acceptable I was informed. I dunno why making a racist comment is not deemed to be acceptable while condoning fascism, which incorporates murder torture and rape, is.

by the way, though i don't in any way condone fascism, it does not incorporate murder torture and rape

chewy

it was strange how the news kept saying they have their top men from moscow on this... and then the commander explain how things started/ended said well we heard explosions then hostages started running out so we and "locals with firearms" started shooting back?

locals with firearms wtf?

i wonder how many regions are that want indepedence from old russia?

how many new countries di russia spurt out over the last few years?

arcadegame2004

hmm, i wonder why they would do something like that, it's not like 200 kids just got butchered by these guys ?

By "these guys" do you mean the hostage-takers or the Russian military? I think both qualify for that categorisation, except that maybe the number "200" should be replaced with "tens of thousands" in the latter case.

You seem to be implying that a Russian life is of greater value to a Chechen life. Is that your meaning? It sounds like it, and that IS fascism.

elivsvonchiaing

Redleslie2 wrote:

I don't think he's being racist, sort of fascist maybe, but condoning fascism is acceptable I was informed. I dunno why making a racist comment is not deemed to be acceptable while condoning fascism, which incorporates murder torture and rape, is.

There was an an Italian fascist who featured on rightious among the nations here: www.yad-vashem.org.il. Can't find the link anymore probably because of irresponisble posts such as forums like this. Will say no more - apart from fascism is different from racism.

PS. don't even dream of posting it if you found it. It used to be (well one of them) yadvashem.com - (to prevent the nazis from registering it - and to create awareness).

Yes Racist is not the same as Fascist.

{Edit} I really liked the visual art they used to explain themselves in 1996 (Could be early/mid 1997). Can only guess why they dropped it - too religious - not so imho - that was stunning stuff. I concede survivors have the vote on this. Suspect that was what happened}

LegacyUser

arcadegame2004 wrote:

By "these guys" do you mean the hostage-takers or the Russian military? I think both qualify for that categorisation, except that maybe the number "200" should be replaced with "tens of thousands" in the latter case.

You seem to be implying that a Russian life is of greater value to a Chechen life. Is that your meaning? It sounds like it, and that IS fascism.

and why tens of thousands ?, how many countries have seceded from the former ussr without a bother ?,

chechnya was nothing but a warlord haven, and a real threat to surrounding countries, the place has to be sorted out, hopefully those kids won't have died in vain and it will let putin take the gloves off and go in HARD

arcadegame2004

chechnya was nothing but a warlord haven, and a real threat to surrounding countries, the place has to be sorted out, hopefully those kids won't have died in vain and it will let putin take the gloves off and go in HARD

What about the thousands of Chechen children killed in the past 5 years by Putin's army of psychopaths? Russia started this. It is ultimately they who will decide if this ends.

While I condemn the killing of the Russian children, it is dwarfed in scale by the slaughter instigated by the Russians in Chechnya. It's just that Putin won't let us see what his minions are up to in Chechnya. Western media-access to Chechnya is almost impossible outside of stage-managed broadcasts managed by the bloodthirsty Russian army.

The deliberate killing of innocent civilians is always terrorism, INCLUDING when national armies carry it out. I therefore consider the Russians to be engaged in terrorism.

and why tens of thousands ?, how many countries have seceded from the former ussr without a bother ?,

How many countries have secede from the British Empire without a bother? Are you saying we asked for it?

LegacyUser

arcadegame2004 wrote:

What about the thousands of Chechen children killed in the past 5 years by Putin's army of psychopaths? Russia started this. It is ultimately they who will decide if this ends.

While I condemn the killing of the Russian children, it is dwarfed in scale by the slaughter instigated by the Russians in Chechnya. It's just that Putin won't let us see what his minions are up to in Chechnya. Western media-access to Chechnya is almost impossible outside of stage-managed broadcasts managed by the bloodthirsty Russian army.

The deliberate killing of innocent civilians is always terrorism, INCLUDING when national armies carry it out. I therefore consider the Russians to be engaged in terrorism

well thats great so, I'm happy for you that you can choose one terrorist over another, happy terrorising :rolleyes:

chewy

one man terrorist is another mans freedon fighter!

LegacyUser

chewy wrote:

one man terrorist is another mans freedon fighter!

well any man who considers ppl who set out to kill hundred of children freedom fighters deserves one in the head himself

arcadegame2004

well any man who considers ppl who set out to kill hundred of children freedom fighters deserves one in the head himself

I heard on Newsnight yesterday that it is possible that NONE of the hostage-takers were actually Chechen, but rather were Russian Muslims, and Ingush. Hmmm. If that is true then some people will have apologies to make I think.

therecklessone

bananayoghurt wrote:

Stalin had the right idea with these ppl, and another Stalin is required,

Stalin perpetrated genocide against the Chechen people, so you're suggesting genocide as the answer to terrorism? When you do you sums, how many innocent chechens does it take to balance the books for a couple of hundred innocent Russian children?

bananayoghurt wrote:

someone with the balls to put an end to this nonsense, they should send an army into that ****hole with the simple order of end it, no repercussions, no court martials, nothing, just put them down

Just put them down? Will you draw the line anywhere? Carpet bombing? Chemical weapons? Hell, why not unleash a few nukes on the fuc*ers, eh?

therecklessone

bananayoghurt wrote:

i endorse any action to put an end to the premeditated and targeted murder of children

Again I ask, where do you draw the line (if at all)? What if the Russians act in a like manner, e.g. killing one Chechen child for every Russian child? Support that?

therecklessone

bananayoghurt wrote:

well any man who considers ppl who set out to kill hundred of children freedom fighters deserves one in the head himself

The same could be said for those who support genocide.

arcadegame2004

The silence of Western governments on Russia's barbarity in Chechnya is utterly outrageous.

BattleBoar

There's only one way I can think of to end the situtation without killing millions of Chechyns: Forced relocation of 90% or more of the Chechyn people to all the four corners of Russia. Scatter them out, separate them from each other, and ban them from travelling beyond a certain radius from that point without official permission.

arcadegame2004

There's only one way I can think of to end the situtation without killing millions of Chechyns: Forced relocation of 90% or more of the Chechyn people to all the four corners of Russia. Scatter them out, separate them from each other, and ban them from travelling beyond a certain radius from that point without official permission.

No. The only way to resolve the situation is for Russia to stop its imperial hangover and clear off. Russia is a troublemaker and foments trouble wherever it goes, e.g the former Eastern Bloc.

BattleBoar

arcadegame2004 wrote:

No. The only way to resolve the situation is for Russia to stop its imperial hangover and clear off. Russia is a troublemaker and foments trouble wherever it goes, e.g the former Eastern Bloc.

Unfortunately, that actually would do more harm than good in the long run after recent events. Before the plane bombings and the school massacre, Russia might have been able to do that and it might have been a viable and even preferable option.

But now, if they take that course of action, it will be seen as a victory for terrorism and will serve to embolden Islamic extremists and terrorist organizations. The western world has a very strong interest in seeing that Russia does not capitulate to the Chechyns in any way after this, lest they want more terrorism inflicted on themselves in the future.

Forced relocation...the sooner, the better.

(Note this assumes the plane bombings will be shown to have been caused by terrorism, which seems likely with the explosive traces finding)

therecklessone

BattleBoar wrote:

Forced relocation...the sooner, the better.

To hell or to Connaught, eh?

arcadegame2004

But now, if they take that course of action, it will be seen as a victory for terrorism and will serve to embolden Islamic extremists and terrorist organizations. The western world has a very strong interest in seeing that Russia does not capitulate to the Chechyns in any way after this, lest they want more terrorism inflicted on themselves in the future.

Again, you are tarring everyone with the same brush. The vast majority of Chechens disapproved of the hostage-taking. All the kidnappings were by a splinter-group led by Shamil Basayev, and opposed by Aslan Maskhadov, the leader of the majority of Chechens (and the deposed democratically-elected President of Chechnya in the days of FAIR elections).

You are also assuming that anyone in Chechnya wanting independence is a terrorist.

You're attitude was used by the Unionists to block progress for years, i.e. we cannot compromise with Irish Nationalists as it would be a "capitulation" to terrorists. The fact that terrorists claim a goal does not make the goal terrorist, but rather the methodology used. I support a United Ireland. That does NOT mean that the IRA represent me.

Redleslie2

BattleBoar wrote:

There's only one way I can think of to end the situtation without killing millions of Chechyns: Forced relocation of 90% or more of the Chechyn people to all the four corners of Russia. Scatter them out, separate them from each other, and ban them from travelling beyond a certain radius from that point without official permission.

Like I asked earlier, should the females be raped and so on (not all of them obviously) as part of the plan? It worked for the Serbs and in Pinochet's Chile.

Anyway, unfortunately for you, the Russian military is rubbish, they can't fight wars properly and they aren't even capable of handling a hostage situation, so I fail to see how they could manage a huge complex ethnic cleansing operation.

chewy

somebody gave me bad karma for using the quote

"one man terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!"

god i _HATE_ the reputation thing...

firstly i was only playing devils adovcate but i believe theres alot of truth behind the saying...

i was looking at the map they have on the front of the indo today with terrorist attacks of 2004 and each country that had a terrorist attack prehaps a suicide bomb or car bomb has a government who probably killed and/or imprisoned as many as those guys killed the other day.. who's creating terror

stas

Hello all,

There's a special bank account in Beslan opened specifically for donations and we are trying to collect some money among us Russian-speaking people living in Ireland. I know we can not return those who have died, but at least we can help those who still alive and support grieving relatives.

All the money collected will be sent to this account and bank receipt will be available, we're making a list of people with the names and amounts donated so it will be easy to see how much we've collected and what did we send. We'll also try to make sure that this is a genuine account.
If anyone interested in donating any amount (even 1-2 euro) or if you have any queries or suggestions - please contact me at 087 9356760 or at webmaster@virtualireland.ru. My name is Stas. Thank you.

Best regards.

Deesy

arcadegame2004 wrote:

What about the thousands of Chechen children killed in the past 5 years by Putin's army of psychopaths? Russia started this. It is ultimately they who will decide if this ends.
[skipped]
How many countries have secede from the British Empire without a bother? Are you saying we asked for it?

Who are the children? Those who got guns and went fight for "independency", or those who are in school? Do you realy know who are those "fighters"? Guys from a prisons who sent there kids to kill. Why ppl in Beslan kicks those animals themselfs? People in Beslan would like to be independent as all of any people around the world, but nobody is taking guns and goes to school to take hostages.
They are not people. They are not fighters. They are jackals!!!
dixi.

arcadegame2004

Who are the children? Those who got guns and went fight for "independency", or those who are in school? Do you realy know who are those "fighters"? Guys from a prisons who sent there kids to kill. Why ppl in Beslan kicks those animals themselfs? People in Beslan would like to be independent as all of any people around the world, but nobody is taking guns and goes to school to take hostages.
They are not people. They are not fighters. They are jackals!!!
dixi.

The Russian soldiers massacring Chechen civilians are also jackals.

Russia must stop oppressing the Chechens or there will be endless episodes like this. And NO I do not condone it. But Russia is killing far more people in Chechnya and sources for this have already been posted earlier in this thread.

Redleslie2

bananayoghurt wrote:

hmm, i wonder why they would do something like that,

Because they're crap fascist cowardly cúnts that's why, and like you they appear to want every Chechen dead. So answer the question, should the females be raped to humiliate and degrade Chechens and make them easier to destroy? Or not.