Bloody end to Russia school siege

Deesy

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The Russian soldiers massacring Chechen civilians are also jackals.

All who kill are jackals. But one of them defend civilians who don't have weapons, another shouts "we are freedom fighters" and take a hostages. Last are CRIMINALS!!! As a bin laden.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Russia must stop oppressing the Chechens or there will be endless episodes like this. And NO I do not condone it. But Russia is killing far more people in Chechnya and sources for this have already been posted earlier in this thread.

Russia is killing far more criminals on there territory, protecting peoples who would like to live in peace (let them fix it themselfs). But some of terrorists outside Russia, support jackals by money and weapons.
Tell me if yo accept all criminals 11/9, Nord-Ost, Beslan... Was that ok?
and again: why ppl in Beslan kick jackals, not f@cking russian army?
I don't like politic, I don't like politics, but I hate those kind of ways to resolver conflicts.

BattleBoar

Redleslie2 wrote:

Like I asked earlier, should the females be raped and so on (not all of them obviously) as part of the plan? It worked for the Serbs and in Pinochet's Chile.

Anyway, unfortunately for you, the Russian military is rubbish, they can't fight wars properly and they aren't even capable of handling a hostage situation, so I fail to see how they could manage a huge complex ethnic cleansing operation.

I don't see how I remotely suggested the females be raped?? Anyway, if you think you know of a better path for Russia without appearing to appease terrorists given the recent attacks, lets here it.

Redleslie2

BattleBoar wrote:

I don't see how I remotely suggested the females be raped??

So you favour half arsed ethnic cleansing then. :rolleyes: Why not rape them? And don't go spewing some politically correct rubbish about how it's 'wrong'. If you're out to batter a people into total submission, (and that is what you're suggesting should be done isn't it?) it's a very effective instrument with a powerful psychological effect. It'd probably be good for Russian troop morale too.

arcadegame2004

I don't see how I remotely suggested the females be raped?? Anyway, if you think you know of a better path for Russia without appearing to appease terrorists given the recent attacks, lets here it.

Define terrorism. In your definition, please make it clear whether you consider deiberate killings of innocent civilians to be terrorism when the State carries it out too. I do, and that is why I accuse the Russian army of being a terrorist organisation. It's crimes make the hostage-killings in North Ossetia look like a picnic, and THATS something.

All who kill are jackals. But one of them defend civilians who don't have weapons, a

There is no rebellion in Inguishetia yet Putin has already started a reign of terror there with reports of disappearances and mass executions. He seems deliberately to use repression in the HOPE of causing rebellion and terrorism that he can then use to his own advantage by claiming he is "attacking terrorism".

Deesy, I have a suspicion you are Russian from your staunch defence of Putin. Why are you so unwilling to admit the massacres being carried out in Chechnya by your army? Could it be that Soviet-brainwashing has not quite worne-off?

RUSSIA IS OPPRESSING THE CHECHENS. That has gotten us where we are now. Putin MUST talk to Maskhadov. He must also stop tarring all the Chechen rebels with the brush of terrorism. Basayev may have been behind the hostage-taking in North Ossetia, but Maskhadov has condemned it. Maskhadov's representative in London even says that NO Chechens took part in the hostage-taking. Is this true? Or are facts being twisted to suit Putin's political convenience?

Deesy

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Deesy, I have a suspicion you are Russian from your staunch defence of Putin. Why are you so unwilling to admit the massacres being carried out in Chechnya by your army? Could it be that Soviet-brainwashing has not quite worne-off?

I don't defend Putin. I defend people who I saw on TV. I didn't see any program on euro tv where putin's army took hostages, but I saw where "f.f.fighter" got hostages. And probably you saw vise versa.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

RUSSIA IS OPPRESSING THE CHECHENS. That has gotten us where we are now. Putin MUST talk to Maskhadov. He must also stop tarring all the Chechen rebels with the brush of terrorism. Basayev may have been behind the hostage-taking in North Ossetia, but Maskhadov has condemned it. Maskhadov's representative in London even says that NO Chechens took part in the hostage-taking. Is this true? Or are facts being twisted to suit Putin's political convenience?

Basayev is a friend of Maskhadov. Otherwise there are dosen of different freedom fighters in chechnya who are looking for different freedom.
I don't have desire to continue this thread. I'm leaving. Sorry.

arcadegame2004

I don't defend Putin. I defend people who I saw on TV. I didn't see any program on euro tv where putin's army took hostages, but I saw where "f.f.fighter" got hostages. And probably you saw vise versa.

The Western media are BANNED from Chechnya except when the Russian military stagemanage something. But Human Rights organsiations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have made widespread reports of mass-executions, tortures, and "disappearances" in Chechnya.

Basayev is a friend of Maskhadov. Otherwise there are dosen of different freedom fighters in chechnya who are looking for different freedom.
I don't have desire to continue this thread. I'm leaving. Sorry.

And no doubt lots of IRA terrorists in NI had friends too who happened to be law-abiding. You are ascribing guilt-by-association but then in Soviet Russia you could be tried for being "the wife/etc. of a traitor".

Yes, there are separate factions within the Chechen separatist movement, some secular and others Islamic-fundamentalist. By tarring even the moderates with the brush of "terrorism", Putin has kept this conflict going. There is no consent in Chechnya for the country to remain part of Russia, rigged elections and referendums notwithstanding.

Russia started this by its policy of slaughter and butchery in Chechnya. Russia has the power to stop it. May I add that the violence in NI didn't largely end until the British negotiated with the political arm of the IRA, Sinn Fein. Lessons need to be learned.

pork99

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Russia started this by its policy of slaughter and butchery in Chechnya. Russia has the power to stop it. May I add that the violence in NI didn't largely end until the British negotiated with the political arm of the IRA, Sinn Fein. Lessons need to be learned.

Fair enough but who do you negotiate with? Those savages who murdered and raped schoolchildren are obviously not interested in negotiations. I very much doubt if those particular terrorists have any associated wing which you could identify as a political party.

Did Russia start this? It's only partly true to say that they did. As I understand it, and I'm certainly no expert, in 1995 they attempted to crush the seperatist movement in Chechenya in a very clumsy and brutal manner and this turned into a humiliating military fiasco for the Russian military. The Chechens effectively drove out the Russians. Had they been more politicaly smart at this stage they could have had peace and independence. They could have got a deal from the Russians which recognised the facts on the ground, set up a government, established law and order.

But this did not happen. Chechenya turned into a rogue bandit statelet where kidnapping and smuggling were rife. Russians were regularily treated to videos of Russian hostages being brutally murdered. They attempted to export this anarchy by invading neighbouring Dagestan with the aim of establishing an Islamic Republic in Southern Russia in 2000. What else could the Russians do but fight back?

For sure the manner in which the Russians fought back when they went back into Chechenya in 2000 was again clumsy and brutal. The Russian military is a bit chaotic, poorly equipped, badly trained and incompetently lead. It's not surprising that young conscript soldiers in the circumstances fighting a ruthless and brutal enemy will take it out on innocent bystanders.

We saw some of the poor organisation of the Russian military in the live video of the school siege. They seemed to be running around in circles, anyone who showed up with a gun could join in the assault. In a western country civilians would be kept blocks away from the siege so if the special forces have to storm the building they know there are only 2 types of people there, hostages and terrorists.

But in Beslan there was a lynch mob storming the school. At least one terrorist was captured and beaten to death by the crowd and there are reports that 2 or 3 more were simply lynched when they were caught. While I feel they got what they deserved, good riddance to them, it might have been useful to take some of them alive for interrogation, intelligence gathering being one of the cornerstones of counter-terrorist operations.

arcadegame2004

Pork99, the descent into banitry in independent-Chechnya was partly the usual anarchy that often engulfs a newly formed state at its birth - e.g. Ireland had a civil war too. The fact that it last for years can be put down largely to the international community's refusal from the start to invest in Chechnya. Russia pressed them not to invest. It suited Russia for Chechnya to become a failed State, since it would later give them a pretext for coming back in.

You seem to be implying that Russian massacres in Chechnya are due to ill-discipline. I disagree. Russian history in that region strongly implies that the genocide is being directed from the top. Western Governments need to speak out.

MrPudding

arcadegame2004 wrote:

So please research your facts in future.

Advice you would do well to follow yourself. Coming from you this comment is more than insulting.

MrP

MrPudding

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Again, you are tarring everyone with the same brush.

Are you serious? How can you accuse anyone of this after your Muslim comments in another thread? Do you have any recolection of your comments from thread to thread?

MrP

bonkey

BattleBoar wrote:

Anyway, if you think you know of a better path for Russia without appearing to appease terrorists given the recent attacks, lets here it.

I'm pretty sure this si the first time I've seen someone here suggest genocide (and yes, if you research what qualifies as genocide, your "split them up" solution qualifies) as the best option to solve a problem....

jc

arcadegame2004

Are you serious? How can you accuse anyone of this after your Muslim comments in another thread? Do you have any recolection of your comments from thread to thread?

Mr.Pudding, nothing I said in a previous thread called for the genocide of Muslim peoples. I see no contradiction.

pork99

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Pork99, the descent into banitry in independent-Chechnya was partly the usual anarchy that often engulfs a newly formed state at its birth - e.g. Ireland had a civil war too. The fact that it last for years can be put down largely to the international community's refusal from the start to invest in Chechnya. Russia pressed them not to invest. It suited Russia for Chechnya to become a failed State, since it would later give them a pretext for coming back in.

There's more to this than seperatism - look at the involvement of Arab Wahhabists in this. Their ultimate aim is the establishment of a universal Islamic Caliphate. If you have a nest of vipers in your house do you feed those vipers or allow anyone else to feed them?

arcadegame2004 wrote:

You seem to be implying that Russian massacres in Chechnya are due to ill-discipline. I disagree. Russian history in that region strongly implies that the genocide is being directed from the top. Western Governments need to speak out.

I'm not defending Putin, his policies are obviously a disasterous failure. What worries me is how Putin is accountable to the Russian people for these failures - it seems he can get away with it.

Their war against terrorism is a neccessary one - Russia is under attack. But simply going into Chechenya and blowing the rubble into smaller fragments of rubble & killing everything that moves is not going to be more successful this time than when it has been tried in the past.

One day they will have to realise that military measures can only be one part of a counter-terrorism strategy. It's an important part but it must be integrated with campaigns against the political, economic and cultural causes of terrorism. If they are to beat the terrorists they will need to become much more subtle and sophisticated in their stategies and tactics.

Good op-ed piece in the Telegraph (subscription)

The situation is not helped by the Russian government's mendacious attitude to the war, which President Putin declared "over" long ago. Yet not only is it not over, its underlying causes have never been addressed. Instead of carrying out negotiations with genuine, moderate Chechen leaders - some admittedly separatist - the Russian authorities have preferred to impose a series of puppet leaders on Chechnya, none of whom have had the authority or the public support needed to destroy the extremists. On the contrary, three of Chechnya's four previous presidents have died violent deaths, the last one in May. The current president, like his predecessor, holds his job thanks to a rigged election, and may not last long either.

Difficult though it may be for President Putin to admit, it is useless to pretend that Chechen terror can be defeated without the achievement of a comprehensive peace settlement in Chechnya. It is equally useless to pretend that a comprehensive peace settlement can be achieved if the Russians refuse to negotiate with any Chechens other than the ones they have appointed themselves.

Thanks to the failed policies of the past decade, the Russians now have a zone of utter lawlessness right on their border. Unless the rule of law is returned to Chechnya, and some form of accommodation is reached, no amount of bravado or tough talk from the Russian president will prevent tragedies such as the school siege in Beslan from happening again.

bonkey

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Mr.Pudding, nothing I said in a previous thread called for the genocide of Muslim peoples. I see no contradiction.

Did you even read the comment he was referring to? The one about tarring all people with the same brush?

Letrs make it clearer....

Consider when you said the Irish government needed to do something with respect to Arabic people in order to protect ourselves from Muslim Terrorists. You know - one of your reasons why we needed tighter asylum / immigration / citizenship laws.

Now you want to complain that someone is unfairly tarring a people because of the actions of a minority of extremists within said group?

jc

arcadegame2004

bonkey wrote:

Did you even read the comment he was referring to? The one about tarring all people with the same brush?

Letrs make it clearer....

Consider when you said the Irish government needed to do something with respect to Arabic people in order to protect ourselves from Muslim Terrorists. You know - one of your reasons why we needed tighter asylum / immigration / citizenship laws.

Now you want to complain that someone is unfairly tarring a people because of the actions of a minority of extremists within said group?

jc

But I specifically pointed out a number of times that I did not consider ALL Muslims to be of that ilk. It's just that it seems pretty clear in the modern world that terrorism now mostly comes from fanatical interpretations of Islam, that carry substantial but not majority support in many Muslim countries, e.g. polls in Arab countries showing Osama Bin Laden to be the most admired world leader (!). I used this to help bolster my case for implementation of an immgration policy based on the old Dublin Convention.

I definitely do not think it justifies genocide though!

vovus

.. all right guys. For those defending chechen "rebels", "fighters", whatever and blaming "russian army" want to put several points - espesially it conserns postings of <arcadegame2004> and similar (by spirit) ..

A little bit statistics: in 1989 there was almost 300.000 russians on territory of Chechnya-Ingushetiya (23% of population). In 2002 only 20.000 left according to census. So, how many have been killed? How many thrown out of their homes by "locals" ? How many have been turned into slavery ? Did your Western media tell you that ? And where have you been before even "first chechen war" when it was genocide of russian population there ?

In 1995 the first Chechen war have began. Russian army - mostly 17-18 years old boys just after secondary school. Chechen army - immediately joined by different scams from all around the world - sniper-women from Baltic (now your EU) states who came to kill that boys just for money, afganistan fighters came to continue their "holy war". Cutting heads of living flesh and crucifixion with cheering is not russian army inventions.

In 1996 in Stavropol region of Russia (not Chechnya), city Budenovsk. Basaev with 100 of armed "rebels_as_your_media_preffer_to_call_them" taken hospital into hostage - almost 2000 poeople. Around
200 have been killed as result.

In 1996 Kizlyar (republic of Dagestan). 300 "so_called_rebels" leading by Raduev have taken into hostage another clinic. Around 100 have been killed, hondreds of injured.

In 1996 Chechnya got independance, war have stopped, they elected their president Mashadov. Till 1999
that was period of massive kidnapings in neighbouring regions (not russians only) and in Chechnya itself and slave market rapid development. Different criminal chechen clans continue to fight with each other and sell and kill innocent people. Did your media showed you kids with cut fingers because parents was unable to pay ransom ? That continued untill 1999 when Basaev made raid on neighbouring state of Dagestan (there are evidance that Berezovskij, now living legally in London under protection of UK low sponsored Basaev that time). The plan was simple - to set to fire of war the whole region.

Then followed building blowings up in Moscow and Volgodonsk - 200/300 dead and other endless blowings up in South of Russia, Chechnya and Moscow. They like to blow up something/someone on dates like 22 of June (when Hitler started war with USSR in 1941) or 9 of May (when russians, ukraininans - all former USSR - celebrate the end of that terrible war with Nazi cost us 30 millions of lives. All that was before the start of "second chechen war". Where was your media that time ? Showed you pictures of bombardment of Yugoslaviya ? - another shame of current EU history.

And you still continue to say about russian army as "terrorist group" - have you seen any evidance of
this or this is just "blah-blah-blah" of what your "human rights goups" don't stop to say you? and call that another bastards as "rebels", "fighters" and give refuge to scams like Zakaev, Berezovskij and similar. I agree, that Russia is far away now from what you call a "democracy", but I think it is much better then follow to double standart policy what Europe does - you like that chechen stories, but don't want to see the problems of that Alban development in Yugoslaviya and abuse of Ortodox churches and Serbs or abuse of rights of russian population in Baltic states - do you know they have already built nazi monuments there ?

So, learn the history and start to think by your own mind.

bonkey

arcadegame2004 wrote:

But I specifically pointed out a number of times that I did not consider ALL Muslims to be of that ilk.

Yes, but you also specifically pointed out a number of times why we needed to target Muslims and/or Arabs as a group because of the actions of a few.

Whether or not you recognise that all are not the same, you still want all treated discriminatly because of the actions of a few.

I definitely do not think it justifies genocide though!

Again with the isdirection.

You were complaining about ppl "tarring everyone with the same brush", not about ppl suggesting genocide.

jc

arcadegame2004

Hello Vovus. Here is my reply to your comments.

Firstly, Maskadov has REPEATEDLY said that he did NOT support the Budenovsk kidnappings, or the Moscow theatre-hostage-taking, or the school-hostage-taking. You are tarring all the Chechens with the same brush. To accuse all Chechens of being in league with Basayev is like accusing all Irish people of supporting the IRA. We don't, and neither do the Chechens all support Basayev.

n 1989 there was almost 300.000 russians on territory of Chechnya-Ingushetiya (23% of population). In 2002 only 20.000 left according to census. So, how many have been killed? How many thrown out of their homes by "locals" ? How many have been turned into slavery ? Did your Western media tell you that ? And where have you been before even "first chechen war" when it was genocide of russian population there ?

Stalin deported 100% of the Chechen population. What is your view on that? Was that right? Two wrongs do not make a right you know. If you are going to condemn terrorism, then you should be consistent and not use the same methods as terrorism. Naturally I condemn what happened to the Russian of Chechnya in 1989, but 2 wrongs do NOT make a right.

What is the solution? Look at Northern Ireland. For years Britain said "we will not talk to terrorists etc.". And they DID talk to them. As a result, there is now peace in Northern Ireland and the killings have stopped. You may say that for Putin to compromise with the Chechens would be surrendering to terrorism, but do you really consider the Maskhadov to be a terrorist? he was democratically elected as you yourself admit and Putin was calling him a terrorist since 1999 when Russia invaded Chechnya - long before the Moscow theatre siege and the Beslan school-siege. Maskhadov has repeatedly said that he was NOT involved in Beslan, or in the Moscow theatre-siege. So why demonise this man? He had nothing to do with any of this and his only crime is leading the resistance to the occupation and invasion of his country. It is surely the duty of a national leader to defend his/her country from invasion? You may reply that legally, Chechnya is part of Russia. But should it be? They clearly don't want to be part of Russia. Ireland did not want to be part of Britain either, and Southern Ireland became independent in 1920. Whatever the cries of "terrorism", you will not peacefully rule in a country if the people there are against you. That was shown in the American war of Independence, and similar wars of independence around the world, including in Ireland. Ethnic-conflicts should not be considered purely as "security/terrorist problems". It is more complex than that.

If Russia wanted to gain the loyalty of the local Chechen population, then massacring them is NOT the way of going about it. You have challenged me to provide evidence of the war-crimes by Russia. Very well! Read the following!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3831913.stm

Chechnya abuses 'go unpunished'
Boris Ozdoev holding a picture of his son, Rashid Ozdoev, who 'disappeared' on 11 March 2004. Picture courtesy Amnesty International
Boris Ozdoev's son Rashid "disappeared" this year. (Picture courtesy Amnesty International)
Human rights violations continue to go unpunished in Chechnya, rights group Amnesty International says in a report.

The group says Russian security services in the republic are responsible for extrajudicial killings, "disappearances", torture and rape.

The report says the great majority of such crimes are carried out with impunity, and abuses are now spreading across the border to Ingushetia. (rest of article can be read in the link)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3611629.stm

Rights groups condemn Chechen abuses
By Steve Rosenberg
BBC Moscow correspondent

Human rights organisations have issued a joint statement condemning what they say are widespread abuses in the Russian republics of Chechnya and Ingushetia.

The groups - including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch - say that despite Moscow's claims to have normalised the situation in the north Caucasus, the cycle of violence there continues.

Human rights groups say there have been attacks against civilians
The Kremlin says that life in Chechnya is gradually returning to normal, but human rights organisations tell a very different story.

They have provided new evidence of rape, torture and summary execution of Chechen civilians by Russian troops and an increasingly powerful militia commanded by the son of Chechnya's pro-Moscow president, Ahmad Kadyrov.

Since you also wish to "see" evidence very well. I must warn users of the forum that you may be distubed by these photos:

http://www.hrvc.net/htmls/graves.htm

Convinced yet?

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Mr.Pudding
Are you serious? How can you accuse anyone of this after your Muslim comments in another thread? Do you have any recolection of your comments from thread to thread?

My comments in the previous thread should be seen in proper context. I pointed out the significant support in many Muslim countries for AQ. Opinion-polls have been carried out demonstrating this. Of course, the vast majority of Muslim immigrants to Europe etc. have no truck with that sort of behaviour. But as Sept.11th has shown, it only takes a small number to wreak death upon thousands. Does that mean we should introduce special-limits on immigration specifically from the Muslim world without applying similar restrictions on immigration from other states generally? No. However, it is a powerful case for rigourous enforcement of the spirit of the Dublin Convention, by preventing asylum-seekers from claiming asylum in more than one EU state. After all, some in the Christian world have secretly joined AQ, e.g. Richard Reed. An immigration-policy that is too liberal will only help some undesirable elements sympathetic to terrorism to break through the net. My comments should be seen In the same context as the true assertion that the fact that gun-ownership is largely banned in this country is not to say that most owning them (if they were widely available) would turn to criminal violence using them. Yet it only takes a small number to create chaos by abusing the system for their own ends? See now? I am not tarring everyone with the same brush.

BTW Vovus, my reference to you tarring with the same brush is a reference to your Government, really, rather than you specifically. Even so, I believe I have supplied plentiful evidence to back my assertions of terrorism by the Russian military. It seems that in Putin's eyes, some lives are worth more than others.

BattleBoar

bonkey wrote:

I'm pretty sure this si the first time I've seen someone here suggest genocide (and yes, if you research what qualifies as genocide, your "split them up" solution qualifies) as the best option to solve a problem....

jc

And yet, amazingly enough, no takers; perhaps it could be the only solution fitting those criteria? If Russia were to do it, they'd have to live with the huge expense and public outcry, although they would create what could end up being a better life for the Chechyn people (albeit away from their homeland), as well as greater security for the Russian people. The other option is to let it continue to degrade.

I doubt that these last two incidents alone are enough to prompt such an action, but then again, I suspect that the massacre of a few hundred innocents and young school children has a way of making some of the more extreme options a little more palatable. So, at what point is inaction less preferable than action, if the only viable alternative that fits the requirements is quite unpreferable in it's own right - A somewhat rhetorical question, but valid nonetheless.

Ronan|Raven

Ah god, been out of the country/newstream for a few days now. Id consider myself a lefto leaning pinko but tbh most the people who defend these actions over "well they did it first" tbh yer playing a worn out violin. Yes Russia is guilty as hell of many attrocities in Chechnya but taking children hostage is about as brave a task as killing kittens. They are "scum" in my eyes no more than a uniformed soldier doing such things.

What these people were hoping t achieve god knows, surey they knew the russians would never bow to them?

Nuttzz

Chechnya needs a kosovo type solution with a UN type peace enforcement force however I cant see a permanent member of the UNSC allowing a Internation force in to sort "an interal issue"

vovus

2 arcadegames2004 and others involved:

About Stalin.
Not only Chechens suffered from that evil. A lot of russians, ukrainians, tatars of Crimea (have been also deported), population of Baltic states - many. Well, my grandpa have been condemned without judgemnt and deported to Siberia - no tracks of him sinse that time. His family hardly survived during the starvation in Ukraine in 1930 (that was organized by Stalin to "panish" ukrainians) wich cost (by the way) lives of around 10 millions of Ukrainian population. Let start another war with Russia? So don't say about Stalin
and Chechen deportation. It is the same as regard to Inquisiton while arguing about current European policy. First time Stalin have been condemned by kommunist party (by Nikita Hruschev) in 1960th and some of his followers and bloody killers have been convicted and executed by kommunist party that time. So "stalin" is completely different story.

About Mashadov.
I presume there are two major reasons why Kremlin don't will to talk to him: 1st - he had and missed his chance to gain control over Chechnya and restore the order when he was the president for several years between wars. But he could hardly control the territory around his palace. 2nd - Basaev and similar "leaders" are openly not under his control anymore. Othervise Mashadov had a lot of chances during serious hostage crises in last years to command his "comrades" and takeover the control over the situation. But all
he could say "that's not my poeple" - whos people are they then ?
Not good example but its the same as ask Amerika to "talk" to bin laden to calm down his "people"..

About war crimes.
I don't want to wash russian army - enough to compare to what americans are doing in Iraq. Every war is ugly and full of crimes espesially when personal motives may lead to lots of deaths. But I want to say that crimes are commeted by both sides and if you distinguish between "rebels" and "terrorists" I would ask you to distinguish between "army/police" and "war crime individuals". So I don't want to justify anyone. You sent me some links - very enough, I have seen lot of them myself, but belive me if you are interested you will find a lot of pictures/movies of crimes done by "rebels" (usually they film such videotapes themselfs for the "fun", for "accountings" as prove that money of their sponsors are spent "properly" and during "mashadov presidency" to blackmail relatives of kidnaped people). If you try emule of edonkey you will find such "homevideos". But why go so "deep" - just look at the latest pictures of dead child bodies of Beslan. I read in latest news one of the terrorists had its own family alive and in good health in Chechnya - wife and 5 children. So if that terrorist's family is gona to be panished (God forbit) by one of the desperate ingush father you will blame russian army ?

Solution - I don't know.
Pul out the army forces and surround Checnya by the fence (as Israel does) and leave the forces on the perimeter of that fence and after each terrorist akt do an air strike (as Israel does)?
Or give them full independance? ... But that have been already done before - result was terrible and don't forget that before "second russian invesion" it was Basaev military raid on Dagestan from territory of independent Chechnya and major terrorist akts in Moscow - not takening into account countless kidnappings of all sort of people - journalist (don't remember beheaded british journalist? or journalists of NTV who spent months in the pit - opposition media that time in Russia who always tried to present the "other" side of the war and defend chechens ?), businesmen, kids, ordinary people for ransom or slave work, even priests of Ortodox church).
Or ask for UN-forces ? - but that is still "part of Russia". So I don't know how to deal with this.
But I see that Putin is trying to handover control over Chechnya to chechens themselves. Well, under Moscow supervision and you would say that is "not democratic", but don't forget - there is still war there.

Nuttzz

The russians have paraded one of the hostage takers on TV, They didnt hold back in their treatment of him for the camera so I can only imagine what they will do to him off camera, sorry to be flippant but they will probably make him wish the yanks had him in camp x-ray or abu gaibbi.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3630128.stm

arcadegame2004

The russians have paraded one of the hostage takers on TV, They didnt hold back in their treatment of him for the camera so I can only imagine what they will do to him off camera, sorry to be flippant but they will probably make him wish the yanks had him in camp x-ray or abu gaibbi.

Abu Ghraib. Well I feel that he is so evil that we should have no sympathy with him. Our sympathies should rest both with the victims of the hostage-taking slaughter and the Chechen civilians who will no doubt be forced to endure even more criminal behaviour at the bloody hands of the Russian military, who I believe are actively involved in the planning and execution of the genocide in Chechnya. I don't accept that ill-discipline is the reason. I believe that the Russian authorities are doing it intentionally.

There is no rebellion in Inguishetia yet Putin has started his usual tricks there. On Newsnight on BBC2 a few months ago they presented the puppet Ingush President with a list of Ingush civilians who had gone "missing". His response was that the list was a lie - even though their families were televised explaining what had happened to BBC. Putin seems to be trying to provoke a second war in that area of only 250,000 people. Which would suit him of course by distracting Russians from his clampdown on democratic freedoms including the freedom of the press, the broadcast media, and the ban on public-demonstrations.

Boggle

Nuttzz wrote:

The russians have paraded one of the hostage takers on TV, They didnt hold back in their treatment of him for the camera so I can only imagine what they will do to him off camera, sorry to be flippant but they will probably make him wish the yanks had him in camp x-ray or abu gaibbi.

They should leave his fate in the hands of the parents....

Nuttzz

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=S0UEDRAV2WOFLQFIQMFSNAGAVCBQ0JVC?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse05.xml

"There were more explosions and shooting as escaped terrorists were hunted down, with one reported to have been dragged from an ambulance and kicked to death."

vovus

Chechnya needs a kosovo type solution with a UN type peace enforcement force however I cant see a permanent member of the UNSC allowing a Internation force in to sort "an interal issue"

read this for example - but probably the presents of "neutral" force could be "less evil" anyway - but nothing is "neutral" in this world and represents interests of those who pays for such "neutrality":
http://www.balkanpeace.org/rs/archive/dec03/rs232.shtml

little quote from this link (printed in December 2003):
"...Attacks on Serbs in Kosovo, a province of two million people, have risen sharply.

According to statistics collected by the UN criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia at The Hague, 1,192 Serbs have been killed, 1,303 kidnapped and 1,305 wounded in Kosovo this year.

In June, 1999, just after the NATO bombing, 547 Serbs were killed and 932 were kidnapped.

Last summer, in one of the more grisly massacres, two Serb youths were killed and four others wounded by ethnic Albanian militants while swimming in the Bistrica River, near Pec.

The violence continues despite an 18,000-strong NATO-led peacekeeping force and an international police force of more than 4,000.

Serbs, who now make up 5% of the population of Kosovo, down from 10% before the NATO campaign, are the main targets of the paramilitary groups..."

arcadegame2004

vovus wrote:

read this for example - but probably the presents of "neutral" force could be "less evil" anyway - but nothing is "neutral" in this world and represents interests of those who pays for such "neutrality":
http://www.balkanpeace.org/rs/archive/dec03/rs232.shtml

little quote from this link (printed in December 2003):
"...Attacks on Serbs in Kosovo, a province of two million people, have risen sharply.

According to statistics collected by the UN criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia at The Hague, 1,192 Serbs have been killed, 1,303 kidnapped and 1,305 wounded in Kosovo this year.

In June, 1999, just after the NATO bombing, 547 Serbs were killed and 932 were kidnapped.

Last summer, in one of the more grisly massacres, two Serb youths were killed and four others wounded by ethnic Albanian militants while swimming in the Bistrica River, near Pec.

The violence continues despite an 18,000-strong NATO-led peacekeeping force and an international police force of more than 4,000.

Serbs, who now make up 5% of the population of Kosovo, down from 10% before the NATO campaign, are the main targets of the paramilitary groups..."

Well Vovus, Milosevic extracted the genie of ethnic-hatred and putting it back in the bottle has naturally been very difficult. But these numbers of Serb deaths are far smaller than the 11,000 Albanians Milosevic butchered in 1999, though still abhorrent of course. But the situation in Kosovo on the whole is now far more peaceful than it was before NATO enterred it.

LegacyUser

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well Vovus, Milosevic extracted the genie of ethnic-hatred and putting it back in the bottle has naturally been very difficult. But these numbers of Serb deaths are far smaller than the 11,000 Albanians Milosevic butchered in 1999, though still abhorrent of course. But the situation in Kosovo on the whole is now far more peaceful than it was before NATO enterred it.

Your hipocrisy is rank arcadegame, you talk away the deaths of those people while muttering about genies in bottle's, and from you who has been screaming about the sufferings of innocent people to simply dismiss the deaths of a thousand with well thats not as many as ... how about I say the chechans let the genie out of the bottle with their criminal and terroristic ways and they are paying the price, anyway I reckon you showed your true colours, you have no concern for the innocent civilians being killed anywhere, you just picked a team and you are supporting them, bit like a game of football, are you banned from the football forum hmmm