Remember that bus accident.

Victor

Remember that bus accident? Five people killed. Nine people ahve been killed so far this weekend.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0905/rta.html

Nine die on Irish roads in 24 hours

05 September 2004 17:12
Another road accident has brought the number of people killed on Irish roads in the past 24 hours to nine.

In the latest incident a male cyclist died after being hit by a truck near Askeaton in Co Limerick.

Earlier, a 23-year-old man died when the car he was driving left the road and hit a fence at Tawnytaskin in Boyle at about 10.40am this morning.




Elsewhere, a 64-year-old man died in hospital after being injured in a collision between his car and a coach near Stradbally in Co Laois yesterday.

In Co Tipperary, two cars crashed near Templemore early this morning.

Two men travelling in one of the cars were killed and a third was injured. All three are said to be non-Irish. A woman in the other vehicle also died and two other people were injured.

In Co Wexford, a 60-year-old woman driver and a male motorcyclist in his 30s died when their vehicles collided at Farmleigh, between Enniscorthy and Bunclody.

And in Cork city a 22-year-old Frenchman was killed when his motorcycle hit a tree on the North Mall. His pillion passenger, who is also French, was critically injured.

Gardaí say the number of people killed on the roads so far this year is 271, compared to 233 for the corresponding period last year.

BrianD

I was expecting a link from one event to the events. The carnage is getting worse and Mr. Brennan can implement all 62 offences that attract penalty points and it won't make a difference! Why? Because our so called police force won't get out and do their work. Funny how you drive from Dublin to Cork without seeing a Garda but there's always loads on duty INSIDE a rock concert arene, a stadium or a racecourse. Funny that.

cormie

Would it not just work to put speed cameras on every stretch of road in the country so nobody would ever break the limit or it would result in them being disqualified.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

John R

cormie wrote:

Would it not just work to put speed cameras on every stretch of road in the country so nobody would ever break the limit or it would result in them being disqualified.

You are labouring under the misconception that above the limit speeding is the problem.
Bad driving is the problem and that includes a whole range of things including inappropriate speeding below the set limits.

sliabh

I saw the stats for accident causes before and I think the three largest factors in Ireland where:
- Excessive speed
- Driver under the influence of alcohol
- Driving on the wrong side of the road (i.e. aggressive overtaking)

Most accidents features a combination of 2 of these. And of course there was a disproportionate number of accidents featuring males under 28.

I have often thought that part of hte problem is that people hear about accidents but it's only later that you may hear about what caused them. So a name and shame campaign might be effective. Show pictures of the wreckage, tell how many people were killed and show "this is John Smith who caused the crash as he was was driving 15mph over the speed limit and tried to overtake on a bend. He was subsequently convicted of dangerous driving causing death and jailed for 3 years".

It might bring it home to more people the consequences of their poor driving.

Crossley

I saw the stats for accident causes before and I think the three largest factors in Ireland where:
- Excessive speed
- Driver under the influence of alcohol
- Driving on the wrong side of the road (i.e. aggressive overtaking)

Given that the Garda, unlike virtually every UK force, have no accident investigation branch, these figures are effectively based on hearsay and as such are meaningless.

sliabh

Crossley wrote:

Given that the Garda, unlike virtually every UK force, have no accident investigation branch, these figures are effectively based on hearsay and as such are meaningless.

The Gardai don't need a seperate investigation branch to carry out an investigation of accidents.

All accidents involving loss of life or personal injury are investigated as a matter of course for legal and insurance purposes. And the fact that the investigations have legal weight (or how else could they get convictions) means that the data is totally reputable and meaningful.

LFCFan

It's so obvious that what Ireland needs is a dedicated road traffic force that is properly trained and able to do the job of policing the roads. I've only ever gone through 5 Garda checkpoints in my 6 years of driving and 4 of these were for Tax and Insurance and the other was for drink drivers. Other than that you see the odd Garda car on the roads and they are usually just working for the revenue of a safe stretch of road with a radar gun.

Crossley

All accidents involving loss of life or personal injury are investigated as a matter of course for legal and insurance purposes

True, but as the officers doing the investigating only have general investigative skills I don't share your faith in their accuracy. Why, for example, aren't the same officers used to investigate air or rail accidents then?

mackerski

sliabh wrote:

I saw the stats for accident causes before and I think the three largest factors in Ireland where:
- Excessive speed
- Driver under the influence of alcohol
- Driving on the wrong side of the road (i.e. aggressive overtaking)

Do the stats also indicate the correlation between excessive speed and speeds in excess of the posted limit? I have to weigh in on the side of the "bad driving" analysis. I have driven widely in Europe and in different parts of the US and have never seen such uniformly poor driving as here in Ireland. The national safety council seems intent on selling us the myth that it doesn't matter how crap your driving is as long as you go slowly enough. The points system reinforces the message that speed limit=correct speed.

In the late 70s and early 80s there were public-info ads on the telly, that went into excruciating detail on such things as:

* What seat belts are for and how to don them
* How to use a roundabout, complete with indicator etiquette (could we ever do with a rerun of this one...)
* How to negotiate (I'm not making this up) an automatic level-crossing
* Why your tyres need to be correctly inflated and still have some profile.
* The importance of reading the road ahead

These days it's more like "people keep spinning out of control and creaming themselves on back roads, or on main roads when it's slippy - we'd better enforce the speed limits a bit better".

When did you last see a speed trap that made you think "hmm, this spot is a bit dangerous right enough? When did you last see a safety campaign that encouraged drivers to use their noggins or analyse the driving conditions? When did a new law, brought in under the guise of road-saftey, every threaten to make offenders go to traffic school or [re-]sit the test? Know anybody who was ever prosecuted for tailgating?

In Germany I could legally do 250km/h and did - but the other half of the deal was damn-well knowing how to control a vehicle and understand when to do 80, 60 or even 30 instead.

So let's have fair speed limits, honestly enforced - and prosecutions for unsafe but within-limit speeds. Let's transfer some Garda energy away from catching folks doing 90 on an empty motorway and instead have them look to more dangerous offences:

* Tailgating
* Failure to keep left
* wrong-side overtaking
* roundabout muppetry (like going right out of the left lane)

And let's shift the ad campaigns away from the gore-fests - there's no point trying to scare us straight if half of us don't know what straight is anyway. Let's see ad campaigns on some of these subjects:

* Look where you're bloody going
* Can you stop from that speed?
* Can you stop if the guy in front does?
* What those orange flashy light thingies are for.
* Look in the mirror
* Clear the overtaking lane
* Roundabouts - the director's cut

Fact is, as long as the safety message remains "slow down" while the enforcement stays confined to the safest roads in the state, people will ignore the message.

Dermot

sliabh

mackerski wrote:

When did you last see a speed trap that made you think "hmm, this spot is a bit dangerous right enough?

The NRA stats show that the most dangerous roads are the straight single lane ones with big hard shoulders. People assume they are safe and then make dangerous overtaking moves. And not surprisingly this is where you find a load of speed checks.

I was on just such a stretch of the N4 at the weekend when a suicidal loon in a white company van doing what seemed like a fair fraction of the speed of light nearly caused a pile up on my side of the road as he was approaching our column of cars in the right hand lane. And we have all seem that sort of thing. A driver tearing along at 70 or 80 meets a line of cars pottering at 60, and the first chance they get they attempt to overtake.

If the guards are not out trying to bust them, then who should the be after. I see more of that (and its considerably more dangerous) than people entering a roundabout the wrong way.

mackerski

sliabh wrote:

I was on just such a stretch of the N4 at the weekend when a suicidal loon in a white company van doing what seemed like a fair fraction of the speed of light nearly caused a pile up on my side of the road[...]

If the guards are not out trying to bust them, then who should the be after. I see more of that (and its considerably more dangerous) than people entering a roundabout the wrong way.

They should be after people like that - and that is considerably more dangerous than bad roundabout use. It's also more dangerous than 90 on a motorway (where speed tax amounts to quite a bit of revenue) - and, crucially, it's almost equally dangerous even if the loon is staying within the speed limit - in this case, the guards will have to nobble him for crossing a solid line (if he did) or (dangerous|careless|without due care etc) driving.

My point is that in a country where people have been given poor guidance on what is dangerous, enforcement and public campaigns should be focussed on just that. Firing a laser at your overtaking friend may happen to pin an easily enforcable offence on him, but in many cases it's just shooting fish in order to be able to demonstrate "progress". But the actual safety message is still taking a back seat.

Dermot

mike65

from unison

THE Government is to hold an emergency summit within the next fortnight - on the soaring road deaths crisis.

Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy is also to be formally asked to deploy more gardai at weekends, now the main killing period on our roads, the Irish Independent has also learned.

The moves are being spearheaded by Transport Minister, Seamus Brennan, in the wake of the worst weekend for road deaths in years.

The crisis summit is timed to co-incide with the launch of a major new offensive with the publication at the end of this month of the long overdue Government Road Safety Strategy 2004-2006.

The last strategy expired in 2002 and its replacement was dogged by delays, including the last minute requirement to have it translated into Irish before it could be published. It aims to dramatically increase the number of speed and drink driving checks when speed cameras are privatised.

Blame for the rise in road deaths has been directed by senior road safety officials at the lack of properly resourced garda enforcement, particularly on dangerous country back roads.

The initial "fear factor", which saw road deaths fall dramatically during the first four months of penalty points, has worn off as motorists believe they stand very little chance of being caught by gardai for drink or drug driving or dangerous overtaking.

This is because Ireland lacks the highly visible police presence found in other countries where governments and civil servants accepted that dramatically beefed up enforcement was the key to bringing down road deaths.

New but unpublished figures reveal there is now "a crisis" over the number of road deaths at weekends.

More than half of all those killed in crashes are losing their lives in the early hours of Friday, Saturday and Sundays, mainly in single vehicle accidents.

Official figures for the first eight months of the year until the end of August reveal 93 people were killed in 85 crashes involving just one car. This compares with 76 lives lost in 66 smashes for the corresponding period in 2003.

Alarmed by the death spiral, Mr Brennan is to convene the summit of all of the main road safety agencies and authorities. Those attending will include Mr Brennan, Justice Minister Michael McDowell, Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy and the heads of the National Safety Council, Medical Bureau of Road Safety, the National Roads Authority and the Automobile Association.

In the meantime, Mr Brennan is to ask the justice minister to request Commissioner Conroy to deploy more gardai at high risk weekends. And the minister has also asked Prof Denis Cusack, head of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety, to carry out a review of single vehicle road deaths at weekends to determine if there are common factors such as drink, drugs falling asleep at the wheel or reckless behaviour by young, inexperienced male drivers.

Last night, a spokesperson for Mr Brennan said the minister was very concerned at the fact that more than half of those killed were in single vehicle accidents in the early hours from Friday night to Monday morning. The spokesperson added that penalty points were still working with motorists taking heed and slowing down. Hundreds were coming close to losing their licences.

Long-awaited measures in the Road Traffic Bill and Government strategy include compulsory training for motorbike riders, full random breath testing, legislation to allow privately operated speed cameras nationwide and a total ban on mobile phones while driving.

Maybe when those hundreds finally tip over and are banned in quick succession ppl will finally belive that poor driving = points = ban = loss of income.

Mike.

mackerski

mike65 wrote:

from unison
Maybe when those hundreds finally tip over and are banned in quick succession ppl will finally belive that poor driving = points = ban = loss of income.

Things that won't earn you points:

* tailgating
* Doing 60 on an open road that's full of snow/ice/grease/wet leaves
* Doing 60 through a pea soup fog
* Overtaking where forbidden or dangerous
* Running a red light
* Failure to watch where you're going
* Wrong-side overtaking

Things that will:

* Using a hand-held phone (fair enough, though possibly not the most pressing need, obvious crowd-pleaser)
* Failure to belt up yourself or a minor (utterly fair)
* Any speed limit infraction however slight.

Let's be clear - inappropriate speed is a problem. However, it disturbs me that most of the biggest muppetry on the road goes largely unchecked and can't attract points at all - while, simultaneously, the points we _do_ give out are zero-tolerance and have no regard to the severity of the offence.

To once again bring Germany into the equation, they've had a points system for years, and it's a big deterrent. However, it's quite different to ours (18 points = ban). Firstly, there's a sliding scale for most offences, including speeding. A speeding offence will earn you a minimum of 1 right up to 4 plus the possibility of an instant ban (for a ban, 31km/h too fast in a town or 41km/h outside). Also, speeding is very much more frowned upon in built-up areas, and this is reflected in the enforcement. So, instead of building suspension-busting, expensive ramps in their 30km/h residential zones, they just park estate-cars with speed cameras in them.

Most tellingly of all, plenty of offences will earn you more points than the straightforward speed - getting within 20m of the car in front at 100km/h will get you 4 points, cost EUR100 and your licence (for a month, I think).

Overtaking without significantly higher speed is 1 point. Doing so without certainty of a clear run is 3. So is wrong-side overtaking.

2 points for using the hard shoulder to gain speed. 3 points for running a red light and thereby causing danger to another road user.

http://www.kba.de/Stabsstelle/Punktsystem/Punkte_Katalog/Punktekatalog.htm

You'll see from the link above that all kinds of things will earn you points, though in many cases only one at a time. These are all things you shouldn't be doing, but you have 18 points to play with - most people get some points, even the ones that think they're careful (and remember, in this country of the only three pointable offences, it's easy to think that). The good news for the fallen is that, AFAIK, there are no insurance penalties for having points (my insurance companies never wanted to know, so I'm assuming that). The good news for the other road users is that, on reaching a certain points count, you were invited to attend a "refresher course", a few more and you were forced to. When you get really close, you're compelled to visit the "traffic shrink" to have your attitude examined (ultimately, he can deem you unworthy of a licence).

By contrast with the German system, our points system is:

* Half-arsed in terms of its ability to cut accidents - there are too many serious offences you can still have "in the sale".

* Poorly prioritised. Cellphones before dangerous overtaking?

* Overly punitive for people with a low points count - why should insurance companies be allowed to penalise drivers with otherwise good records over points whose seriousness cannot be known? (besides, up till now we've all been charged top dollar on the assumption that we were crap, so a further penalty is a double one.)

* Arguably too quick to ban, if you consider the potential to rack up a few small speeds. That said, I think I'd get very cautious indeed once in the zone.

And FWIW, my points collection currently stands at zero, and I'm intending to keep it that way.

Cheers,
Dermot

seamus

mackerski wrote:

Things that won't earn you points:

* tailgating
* Doing 60 on an open road that's full of snow/ice/grease/wet leaves
* Doing 60 through a pea soup fog
* Overtaking where forbidden or dangerous
* Running a red light
* Failure to watch where you're going
* Wrong-side overtaking

Most of which fall under the category of "dangerous driving". If the Gardai were encouraged to charge more people with dangerous driving for dangerous manouvers that aren't specifically covered by the points scheme, it would work.

Victor

mackerski wrote:

also more dangerous than 90 on a motorway (where speed tax amounts to quite a bit of revenue)

Actually do a search on this board. Disproportionately few checkpoints are on motorways.

THE Government is to hold an emergency summit within the next fortnight.

jesus_thats_gre

There is not enough Gardai full stop... There is no point criticising something that is severely understaffed..

elivsvonchiaing

The ridiculous differential on speed limits imposed on country roads as opposed to city roads is the problem. E.g. R132 (I think) Dublin Airport to Malahide - Baldoyle - as you hit Baldoyle speed limit is 30MPH :eek: .

Athlone to Ballinasloe - 60Mph. Now that's ridiculous. The problem isn't only the lack of Gardai - it's more one of a lack of decent roads as well!

So what exactly happened those EU structural funds anyhow - now we're asking questions

cormie

so who gave me a bad reputation point for this thread and why didn't you leave a comment or at least your username?

sliabh

cormie wrote:

so who gave me a bad reputation point for this thread and why didn't you leave a comment or at least your username?

Got the same thing myself for a post that seemed quite reasonable further up.

If you are going to mark someone done have the guts to say why!

mackerski

seamus wrote:

Most of which fall under the category of "dangerous driving". If the Gardai were encouraged to charge more people with dangerous driving for dangerous manouvers that aren't specifically covered by the points scheme, it would work.

I'd have to agree - having said that, this option (or the related offences of careless or due care and attention) always applied to speeding too. If it was considered ineffective in combatting speeding, then the same will apply to the other offences. More importantly, confining the points system to a select few token offences risks giving the impression that point-free offences are less serious.

Dermot

sliabh

mackerski wrote:

More importantly, confining the points system to a select few token offences risks giving the impression that point-free offences are
less serious.

The plan has always been to extend the points system to cover additional offences (I think there will be around 60 in total eventually). The rolling approach is being taken because of the need for a computerised system and also for road user education. Hence the big deal whenever they add a new points offence to the list (e.g. seat belts)

Bee

Victor wrote:

Actually do a search on this board. Disproportionately few checkpoints are on motorways.

Next thing you will be stating that the Garda "Pulse" computer system is an accurate representation of crime stats... :rolleyes:

Bee