Planetside - Who's still playing ?

Moriarty

Ivan wrote:

Well it used to be $24.99 when I played so

Feh! Shows how much you know!


I paid 20 for it

Ivan

ExoduS 18.11 wrote:

Of course you have to but core combat, i mean its like any other expansion for a game. When games bring out new stuff you usually need the expansion anyways? No-one "misses" out on cc [its naff anyways], its like any other game, you need to buy it to get the extra features

Sure, but usually with game expansions they wont let you play them across with each other.

So take starcraft for example, you cant use the medic vs. someone who cant use the medic unit. Whereas in Planetside, thats exactly what they allow.
Its forcing people to buy the expansion and thats a bit unfair, imho
Sure, its good marketing but that isnt really the issue...

ExoduS 18.11

I dont know much about the hgame your on about but, nobody is forcing you to do anything, if u want to get some extra stuff to help you in the game, you buy the expansion. Otherwise just dont. Ultima Online have released 2 expansions in the past 2 years, and you cannot access the Necromancer or Paladin skills if you haven't bought the game , but they can still kill you using that skill. Same with planetside

Memnoch

ExoduS 18.11 wrote:

I dont know much about the hgame your on about but, nobody is forcing you to do anything, if u want to get some extra stuff to help you in the game, you buy the expansion. Otherwise just dont. Ultima Online have released 2 expansions in the past 2 years, and you cannot access the Necromancer or Paladin skills if you haven't bought the game , but they can still kill you using that skill. Same with planetside

to be fair the way most expansions in MMORPGs work is that players are kinda FORCED into buying them. Because you need to get the new "things" that the expansion includes if you want to stay competitive, and on a level playing field, especially in PvP, otherwise be prepared to fight with a huge disadvantage.

A good example of this is Dark age of camelot. When Shrouded Isles came out, you had to get it, because without it you would be unable to get the uber items that everyone else got from relatively easy quests, not to mention the ability to farm cash easily in a safe environment, even if your side didn't have Darkness Falls. In fact in the first couple of Months after SI was released there was a place where you got INSANE loot drops and made money like silly, this was totally unbalancing and they knew it from the start, but they left it in game for a couple of months so everyone would get SI to take "advantage of this feature". Once most ppl had bought the expansion they nerfed it, pretty clever really.

Then Trials of Atlantis came out. This one was even worse. before a non-si char could still sort of compete with a SI charecter. But after TOA, if you didn't have all the master levels and items and abilities, you wouldn't stand a chance in hell in RvR, you would be wiped without the other player even really trying. I even tested it myself a month ago, where I had pretty much the best kind of equip and set up on my Nightshade and I fought against another TOA'd NS, who was RES SICK (meaning they had just been killed and would be doing HALF damage), I got so badly owned it wasn't even funny. So it was clear to me that if I wanted to have fun RvRing in DAOC again I would have to buy TOA and spend a lot of time getting all the stuff in it. I decided to give it a miss.

Its kinda similar with planetside, everyone is talking about how overpowered BFR's are and you need the expansion to get them. So it should be intersting to see how things pan out in that respect, once BFR's go live on monday

Ivan

I had a go at them today in VR. They are insane.
I just used the NC one and only with one guy, myself, as pilot. The NC version is basically a shotgun effect. Dual heavy machine. 20mm I think, pretty nasty. The gunnar seat has alot more weapons to play around with, including a rockpod the equivalent of a reaver. There is also a NTU siphon and Armour siphon but I'm not sure what they do. Considering its 2 points to get them they basically make the lightning tank & co. redundant. Although they are alot slower.

These things are the equivalent of ED-209 running around the place with equal firepower. Now compare poor robocop who got slightly fooked over by good ol' ED. Now consider that your average infantry is ALOT weaker in terms of firepower & Armour than Robocop. I think you see where I'm going with this.

I dont think there is any doubt that the reduction in price to $8 is coincidental. Or the fact you can DL the CC patch online. There is even a web link to buy it directly in the patch menu under the patch changes menu, ffs.

Masterful tbh.

ExoduS 18.11

But with Core Combat, there wasn't really a big improvement with the game. You got about 4 new weapons and 3 new vehicles and a really quite bad fighting space. If anything SOE are trying to improve the experience for people who bothered to buy the expansion, even tho it didn't have much to offer. And its still only 9E anyways .
Go and check out the tr double miniguns. It a proper laugh so it is.

Memnoch

ExoduS 18.11 wrote:

But with Core Combat, there wasn't really a big improvement with the game. You got about 4 new weapons and 3 new vehicles and a really quite bad fighting space. If anything SOE are trying to improve the experience for people who bothered to buy the expansion, even tho it didn't have much to offer. And its still only 9E anyways .
Go and check out the tr double miniguns. It a proper laugh so it is.

bah TR are overpowered already, they have by far the best infantry in game, with their spam kill chain gain for anti infantry and the lock on infantry held missle launcher.

Not to mention their AA Max is scary, i mean u can't even see on your radar where it is shooting you from. Though I think over all the game is probably well balanced, and i'm sure i'd find that TR isn't as "easy mode" as I think it is, if I played it for a good amount of time.

Ave

Memnoch wrote:

bah TR are overpowered already, they have by far the best infantry in game, with their spam kill chain gain for anti infantry and the lock on infantry held missle launcher.

Not to mention their AA Max is scary, i mean u can't even see on your radar where it is shooting you from. Though I think over all the game is probably well balanced, and i'm sure i'd find that TR isn't as "easy mode" as I think it is, if I played it for a good amount of time.

I was NC and TR, TR had best basic rifle, NC were average, but always found BS to have uber infantry and uber tank.

ExoduS 18.11

Its insane trying to keep tr out of a base. They just storm down stairs with the mingun and anialate anything in its path. BTW wouldn't mind squading up with a few irish ps operatives for some green ownage?

Dr_Teeth

NC is easy mode, TR medium and VS is hard. I have a feeling things are going to get a lot worse for VS when the BFRs come out..

Teeth.

Ivan

Personally I'd rank it as :

NC EASY
VS Easy/Medium
TR Medium/Hard

NC have the shotgun weapons which usually make mincemeat of anything you can hit. VS have the lasher/energy weapons which usually do decent damage even if you dont hit.
TR, while they have a nice chain gun it just does pathetic damage by comparision. The difference is the rate of fire and the accuracy. Which in a veteran player's hands is pretty formidable.

I think the VS tank is the best out of the lot of them. The drivers laser cannon is rather scary.

THe maxes have to go to the NC. Just greater armour, greater firepower and shields baby.

Tbh, I'd say thats how the BFR's will go too. NC's will be the more powerful.
Only time will tell.

Moriarty

If NC troops are caught in the open, they're usually nailed. The jackhammer is only of use when you're close enough to smell their breath, the lack of range on it is just incredible. The vanguard/thunderer aren't bad mind.

Ivan

Moriarty wrote:

If NC troops are caught in the open, they're usually nailed. The jackhammer is only of use when you're close enough to smell their breath, the lack of range on it is just incredible. The vanguard/thunderer aren't bad mind.

Thats what grenade launchers with plasma grenades are for. You hide behind a tree and pop out every so often and lob a few at the guy. They think you just have grenades and try and get closer. Then you jump out and ambush them with the jackhammer.

Lol.
RE:What we were talking about earlier, about marketing.

See what happens after you've updated. We get a nice splash screen with the option to buy Core Combat

Dr_Teeth

Ivan wrote:

NC have the shotgun weapons which usually make mincemeat of anything you can hit. VS have the lasher/energy weapons which usually do decent damage even if you dont hit.

The MCG is vastly superior to the Lasher in most situations, the only time I'd pick a Lasher over the MCG is when defending a back door where you just spam it to keep them from coming in - but of course in that case what you really want is a Maelstrom.

In the standard 10-20m circle-strafing fights that happen all the time, the MCG wins hands-down.

Ivan wrote:

I think the VS tank is the best out of the lot of them. The drivers laser cannon is rather scary.

The Magrider is the best *tank killer* but it isn't the best tank. It's absolutely hopeless verses infantry. The Vanguard is better armoured, and has a far better gun - it can actually do some useful supression whereas the Mag just drives around being AV fodder and getting nothing done.

In addition most tank battles happen at close range, and in rough terrain where the Mag's speed and its railgun don't give it much of an advantage.

Ivan wrote:

THe maxes have to go to the NC. Just greater armour, greater firepower and shields baby.

The Scattermax is lethal yup, but the VS have the best AV and AA maxes - it's the only area they dominate in. This is why I think the BFR introduction is going to screw the VS badly. Their main advantage was in great AA, and the ability to take courtyards by jumping over the walls - both of these are in the domain of the BFRs now.

Teeth.

Ivan

Dr_Teeth wrote:

The MCG is vastly superior to the Lasher in most situations, the only time I'd pick a Lasher over the MCG is when defending a back door where you just spam it to keep them from coming in - but of course in that case what you really want is a Maelstrom.

Well, tbh, I dont have CC so I cant really comment on the Maelstrom, although it is a great infantry suppression weapon (i.e. spamming doors of bases so they cant get inside). Since about 60% of the game consists of this sort of combat I found the lasher more effective, tbh. That said, I do love the mini-gun but I personally would rank it below the Jackhammer & Lasher simply because the Jackhammer is the best close range weapon and the lasher is great for infantry denial. The mini-gun, while great at what it does, just isnt really required to do it, that often.

Dr_Teeth wrote:

The Magrider is the best *tank killer* but it isn't the best tank. It's absolutely hopeless verses infantry. The Vanguard is better armoured, and has a far better gun - it can actually do some useful supression whereas the Mag just drives around being AV fodder and getting nothing done.

Yes, I'll agree it is the best tank killer while the Van is better vs. infantry (although the Prowler is better still) but the maneuverability, ability to cross water, its speed. Its accuracy, both of the main cannon and the drivers weapon means it can effectively shoot down air as well. Something no other tank can claim. And at the end of the day, what good are tanks if they cant kill other tanks? Other Infantry/Apc's and Air power are for killing infantry.

Dr_Teeth wrote:

In addition most tank battles happen at close range, and in rough terrain where the Mag's speed and its railgun don't give it much of an advantage.

And that just isnt true, the Mag's speed and hover abilitys make it very formidable and basically make up a package for the best all round tank, imho.

Dr_Teeth wrote:

The Scattermax is lethal yup, but the VS have the best AV and AA maxes - it's the only area they dominate in. This is why I think the BFR introduction is going to screw the VS badly. Their main advantage was in great AA, and the ability to take courtyards by jumping over the walls - both of these are in the domain of the BFRs now.

Teeth.

I'm glad we agree on the "Scatter Max" tbh, as there cant really be much question there. Personally I would have thought the TR AA max was the best tbh, due to its great rate of fire. Although the NC AA Max is pretty nice too when it locks on... I dont really have enough experience to decide either way, I generally stay away from max's.

As for the VS max though, I basically believe they are glorified infantry. The jump-jet ability is nice and definitely allows them to regain some dignity but when it comes down to it, the average infantry is capable of taking them on if they know they are coming and/or have some cover.

I really wont be foolish enough to comment on how BFR's will affect gameplay, however I'm about to join WERNER now and see whats going on with my Outfit. I expect them all to be running around in BFR's where last night they were organising large Van Squads.

All I can say is... ick.

Ivan

Ok, here it is, the first review of BFR's.

Let me just start by saying...



Retards, Retards, Retards.
What the hell were they thinking?!

As it stands (as of some extensive testing on 19-October-2004 circa 3am GMT) BFR's are the single most ridiculous idea for any sort of FPS hoping for even a small semblance of balance.

They are walking tanks, only with self recharging shields. With the equivalent weapon choices of a very powerful AA max, a very scary looking anti-infantry laser cannon, some burst lasers, the NTU siphon (which will be pretty horrible before long, trust me) the Armour Siphon a few others I didnt get to try.

Then the 2 seater has a gunner position which can mount a napalm type weapon with a 360 degree arc and a pretty decent rate of fire.

The driver can load what weapons into his BFR he wants, so he can have a dual anti-infantry laser, a dual AA weapon or one of either if he prefers.
It is these options, combined with the fact that they are hardy as hell and have shields that make these things some scary mother fookers.

That said, there are a few specifics worth noting.

A) There is a 1 hour recharge time
You must have Core Combat & Have logged 10 captures in the caverns
C) They are prone to malfunctions.

The malfunctions bit is a bit suspect to me, tbh. They basically have made these awesome, super-powerful unit, that you can only get when you buy CC. Now, the thing is it has a 1 hour recharge timer, so you basically want to do everything in your power to prevent losing your precious BFR. This means running away from battle with 3/4 of your health left (Trust me, I've seen it ) so you can get healed back up. Now, to counter-act the fact that you could just keep the same BFR for ages, your BFR seems to suffer from malfunctions the older it is. After about 7-8 minutes in VR I lost my radar on it. Which meant I couldnt see any air units on radar.

Also, damage seems to play a factor in malfunctions. Where damage is applied is also seemingly important.

This means that eventually your BFR will become a worthless piece of junk, thus forcing you to have to get a new one and succumbing to the 1 hour recharge time.

However that said, there are a number of reasons why the BFR is a ridiculous concept (while very cool in theory, in application they represent a fundamental shift in power).

A) They can climb hills no other vehicle can, even high enough that reavers cant fly above them or even equal in height to them. In fact they can climb so high, by comparison to the height tanks & co. can get to that the tanks cant even aim their turret high enough to be able to hit them.

From what I can tell they seem to have no difficulty with water (Needs further testing)

C) The ability to carry anti-aircraft, anti-infantry and/or anti-vehicle payloads means you dont really know what you'll be facing until your likely to be half dead. You can carry an AA weapon, an AV weapon and use the secondary weapon, in the 2 seater variant, as the anti-infantry weapon. You can basically now take on all forms your foes may take. Thus making you the most powerful single unit in the game. Hence, unbalancing it.

D) Reavers/Mosquitos have literally, Zero chance against them. I've dumped 88 reaver rockets (basically my entire payload) at a Colossus (the NC variant) without even knocking his shields down. It took the combined firepower of myself (in a reaver), a lightning and a VS variant BFR to kill the blasted thing. Not to mention when 3-4 of these things group up together, squads of tanks can just throw themselves at them, to no avail.

There are a few other points I wanted to make, but I cant really think of anything else at this time.

In summary:

Get a BFR as soon as you can.
I dont think I'll be renewing my planetside subscription this month.
This leaves me with an awful taste in my mouth. BFR's=Core Combat=$$
Vaguely reminds me of SWG.
Down with SOE!


I'm open to input/criticism's.
All details are open to interpretation and are preliminary at best.



P.s. Yes that is a BFR climbing up a hill at an impossible angle. He then proceeds on a few feet where he butchers several infantry & 2 lightnings with me powerless to stop him.

Moriarty

Ivan wrote:

They are walking tanks, only with self recharging shields. With the equivalent weapon choices of a very powerful AA max, a very scary looking anti-infantry laser cannon, some burst lasers, the NTU siphon (which will be pretty horrible before long, trust me) the Armour Siphon a few others I didnt get to try.

They're vulnerable to combined arms assault. Most infantry weapons go straight through the sheilds. Shooting the shield gen on the arse of each BFR with a sniper rifle will immediatly drop their shields. EMPing their legs will slow them down significantly (they have location-specific damage).

Ivan wrote:

That said, there are a few specifics worth noting.

A) There is a 1 hour recharge time
You must have Core Combat & Have logged 10 captures in the caverns
C) They are prone to malfunctions.

a) After the introduction event - ending next monday - the timer will drop to 45 minutes. If there is a vehicle mod on the lattice that timer drops to 22.5 minutes, like any other vehicle.

b) After the intro event is finished, yup.

c) This is part of the intro event. No one has had to spend any cert points to get the BFRs for this week, so they decided to cripple them slightly because of the obvious mass influx of BFRs. Once the intro week is over, the malfunctions disappear.

Ivan wrote:

Also, damage seems to play a factor in malfunctions. Where damage is applied is also seemingly important.

This is a design feature. There is locational damage on the BFRs, so there's a chance that various various parts of the BFR will be temporarily handicapped when it's hit by weapons fire (run slower if the legs are hit, radar temp out if you hit other parts, slower weapons fire if they hit those, etc etc)

Ivan wrote:

However that said, there are a number of reasons why the BFR is a ridiculous concept (while very cool in theory, in application they represent a fundamental shift in power).

A) They can climb hills no other vehicle can, even high enough that reavers cant fly above them or even equal in height to them. In fact they can climb so high, by comparison to the height tanks & co. can get to that the tanks cant even aim their turret high enough to be able to hit them.

Afaik this is a bug they've been looking at throughout the testing. It'll prolly be fixed shortly.

Ivan wrote:

From what I can tell they seem to have no difficulty with water (Needs further testing)

They can only walk in shallowish water. The exact depth varies from continent to continent. They can't shoot when they're in water either.

Ivan wrote:

C) The ability to carry anti-aircraft, anti-infantry and/or anti-vehicle payloads means you dont really know what you'll be facing until your likely to be half dead. You can carry an AA weapon, an AV weapon and use the secondary weapon, in the 2 seater variant, as the anti-infantry weapon. You can basically now take on all forms your foes may take. Thus making you the most powerful single unit in the game. Hence, unbalancing it.

Pfft. It's not unballanced, everyone has access to the BFRs if they want it. It's just changed the battle dynamic. That's a good thing.

Ivan wrote:

D) Reavers/Mosquitos have literally, Zero chance against them. I've dumped 88 reaver rockets (basically my entire payload) at a Colossus (the NC variant) without even knocking his shields down. It took the combined firepower of myself (in a reaver), a lightning and a VS variant BFR to kill the blasted thing. Not to mention when 3-4 of these things group up together, squads of tanks can just throw themselves at them, to no avail.

Horray! No more reaver spamwhores But seriously, once the shields are knocked out reavers would be effective against a BFR.

Ivan wrote:

Get a BFR as soon as you can.
I dont think I'll be renewing my planetside subscription this month.

Right, so instead of seeing how it actually works out you'll just throw your toys out of the pram. Great plan.

Ivan wrote:

This leaves me with an awful taste in my mouth. BFR's=Core Combat=$$

Has SOE suddenly become a Non-Profit Organisation? Seriously.. either buy core combat or don't. It's dead cheap. We don't live in a communist society where everyone gets everything the want for free.

Ivan wrote:

Vaguely reminds me of SWG.
Down with SOE!

</hysterical pram-ejecting fanboi temper>

Rev Hellfire

I'm actually quite looking forward to the BFR's hopefully it'll spice things up a bit.
If any of you are about this evening and the side of truth and justice (thats the VS ) give me a shout ( captaincoffee ) and we can partake in some stompa stomp.

As for the whole having to buy Core Combat to get extra's, well nothing in this world comes for free.

Ivan

Only really one thing in your post worth replying to, in my mind.
And thats :

Pfft. It's not unballanced, everyone has access to the BFRs if they want it. It's just changed the battle dynamic. That's a good thing.

and all I can say is, even giving the most powerful piece of technology in the game to all sides, hardly constitutes balance. It basically makes all other forms of transport irrelevant. Even though you still have to get Armoured Assault 1 & 2 before you can get the BFR (when it goes live). So you can fall back on a lightning and/or side specific heavy tank while your BFR recharges. It will basically remove a large portion of the infantry population. Its a nice concept, but I reallyl dont think they thought it through much.

Anyway, I've said my piece. I'm going to get some playing in before my sub runs out and perhaps try to change my mind...

ExoduS 18.11

Moriarty wrote:

They're vulnerable to combined arms assault. Most infantry weapons go straight through the sheilds. Shooting the shield gen on the arse of each BFR with a sniper rifle will immediatly drop their shields. EMPing their legs will slow them down significantly (they have location-specific damage).



a) After the introduction event - ending next monday - the timer will drop to 45 minutes. If there is a vehicle mod on the lattice that timer drops to 22.5 minutes, like any other vehicle.

b) After the intro event is finished, yup.

c) This is part of the intro event. No one has had to spend any cert points to get the BFRs for this week, so they decided to cripple them slightly because of the obvious mass influx of BFRs. Once the intro week is over, the malfunctions disappear.



This is a design feature. There is locational damage on the BFRs, so there's a chance that various various parts of the BFR will be temporarily handicapped when it's hit by weapons fire (run slower if the legs are hit, radar temp out if you hit other parts, slower weapons fire if they hit those, etc etc)



Afaik this is a bug they've been looking at throughout the testing. It'll prolly be fixed shortly.



They can only walk in shallowish water. The exact depth varies from continent to continent. They can't shoot when they're in water either.



Pfft. It's not unballanced, everyone has access to the BFRs if they want it. It's just changed the battle dynamic. That's a good thing.



Horray! No more reaver spamwhores But seriously, once the shields are knocked out reavers would be effective against a BFR.




Right, so instead of seeing how it actually works out you'll just throw your toys out of the pram. Great plan.




Has SOE suddenly become a Non-Profit Organisation? Seriously.. either buy core combat or don't. It's dead cheap. We don't live in a communist society where everyone gets everything the want for free.



</hysterical pram-ejecting fanboi temper>

Hardly a dig at Ivan is it?

Dr_Teeth

What did you guys think of the Monolith event? I had a great weekend playing! But then my two main characters are on Emerald/VS and Werner/NC heh heh.

Teeth.

Moriarty

I really enjoyed it. Very nice change in pace and a different global strategy was needed. Of course, it may have helped that NC/Werner that I play on did so well

All in all, more of this sort of thing.

KilOit

it was fun,
tr where muc though

Ivan

For the little bit I did take part in was great fun.

Was great too when we loaded up the HART with NC so we could drop on the monolith and sub caps. So many people that it crashed the server

Was nice to see some actual strategy. At one point on saturday TR took an entire cont as soon as it went neutral. We (NC) and the VS just dropped and within 20 minutes had knocked the TR to just the capital. Was a great fight getting 33% of the continent population out of a capital and some nice xp

All in all, a great fight.

But who won? I presume NC won on Werner as we were up 9 4 1 when I logged off on saturday, but sundays caps were supposed to be worth more.

Moriarty

NC won on Werner by about 16 - 10 (vs) - 4 (tr) iirc. NC definetly won anyway.

lynchie

Didn't like the monolith event. Started out allright, but then TR wouldnt listen to CR5 and we jsut got pwned everywhere. Ended up staying on one continent trying to hack bases rather than jumping to a new continent every 10 minutes!!

fenris

I have been playing most nights for over a year - VS on Werner (Dex - EVE) and NC on Emerald (HalibutLanger - Halibut), but the BFRs have really taken skill out of the game, even without skill there should be some residual fun left even if it is just getting killed in new and amusing ways, but unfortunatly even the Halibuts cannot find it, so last Thursday after trying to play planetside but finding mechwarrior5 windowlicker special edition instead, we all buggered of to play Counterstrike:Source.

Personaly I am going to give it a couple of weeks to settle but I think they have really screwed it up this time.

Ivan

Tbh, I've found its actually fine when your in a clan. The problems arise when your running around as part of some random zerg. Where you can get no co-ordination or tactics from anyone.

The shield thing is really important. Infantry can take down or at the very least help vehicles, to take down a BFR. Their assistance comes with using any weapon with armour piercing ammo (The Jackhammer & MCG are most efficient at this). You basically throw jammers & keep shooting the shield mod, after its destroyed hit anything else you can. Although the centre torso on the front and back are good choices (destroys the BFR trunk, killing all of its ammo or else knocks out its sensors, effectively making you invisible on his radar). Oh, and radiator grenades kill the pilot directly inside the BFR. Effectively cooking him while he sits there, unable to move away fast enough. Very effective.

Infantry are the key vs. bfrs, which is kinda nice tbh.

It used to be Vehicles > Infantry.
Now its BFR's > Vehicles > Infantry > BFR's.
Try it out.

I must admit though, the whole weapons systems are just ridiculous. As a max you have about 1/2 second to survive versus BFR anti-infantry weapons. Let alone the amount of time infantry have to survive vs. them...

fenris

Planetside without an outfit is just plain silly these days !
good well co-ordinated tactical play has very little chance against a group ofm BFR's (and when have you seen them on their own apart from a random noob trying one out) if you damage one it just runs up the side of a mountain and repairs, the Polish horse had generations of training, buckets of leadership and bravery, executed textbook tactics and were turned into dogfood within seconds by the first German units they encountered.

For a lot of players the challenge is to go toe to toe or scope to scope with an enemy even if you get milled you probably go back for more if you think you have made progress, with BFRs at the moment all you are is kill count padding and going back just gets you fscked off with the game, that is why lots of people are giving it a break to see if the geme can be fixed, they don't want to get so fed up that they cancel, which in itself is a statement of how good PS can be, in most other games people just bugger off and stay gone.

Ivan

Well, I have done exactly that. Cancelled my subscription for a few months, to see what happens with BFR's and cos I need get working for college

When I resubscribe, I imagine I'll get Core Combat as well, and try out the BFR's myself.

To be fair though, myself and 6 others from my outfit spent a whole day taking out BFR's. Its quite simple once you get the tactics down. A few of the guys took out some VS BFR's with their stolen TR chain guns with AP ammo.

They arent invincible, they are close, but not really.

In fairness, you have a much better chance against a BFR than you do against a tank or reaver.