Religion and the State

omnicorp

Should Religion (ie, The Catholic Church) have a say in how the state is run?

I don't think so as that would be unfair on the people of other Religions.

AngelofFire

You`re right,making laws to suit a particular religous order is secterian. For years the irish government and people were slaves to the will of the catholic church thanks to the 1937 consitution with its secterian article. Many Roman Catholic Clergy abused their position of power, we read articles about child abuse that went on years ago in the papers today. They are getting away very lightly aswell few catholic clergymen have been arrested or detained. if the church of ireland or the presbyterian church were involved in similar scandels i doubt they would of gotten away as easily.

therecklessone

omnicorp wrote:

Should Religion (ie, The Catholic Church) have a say in how the state is run?

I don't think so as that would be unfair on the people of other Religions.

Should Trade Unions?
Business groups?
Sports bodies?

Would you remove the Church's right to comment totally? Or limit it?

popinfresh

TBH, I think religious organisations should be internationally outlawed. Not religion, or peoples right to beleive in a god or to own a bible. Just religious organisations, who allow infants to join their organisation (not old enough too make their own choice) and tell them what to beleive. ie: the catholic church. Look at the middle east ffs. Ban em all

LegacyUser

therecklessone wrote:

Should Trade Unions?
Business groups?
Sports bodies?

Would you remove the Church's right to comment totally? Or limit it?

they should be allowed comment as they wish, it is a democracy, but no heed should be given to the ramblings of the church, the other groups/bodies you mention actually have serious bearing on peoples lives so their opinions are valid

Rezmuter Duane

Religion and State should be seperate. Period. They have no right to influence the law in any way. They are the same as a sports organisation. If we gave the FAI the right to influence government, we would be laughed at worldwide.

therecklessone

bananayoghurt wrote:

they should be allowed comment as they wish, it is a democracy, but no heed should be given to the ramblings of the church,
the other groups/bodies you mention actually have serious bearing on peoples lives so their opinions are valid

Maybe for you, but there are plenty of people out there for whom the Catholic Church (not the church there is more than one) has a great deal of relevance.

So the "ramblings" of the Catholic Church...should we pay any heed to them?

LegacyUser

therecklessone wrote:

Maybe for you, but there are plenty of people out there for whom the Catholic Church (not the church there is more than one) has a great deal of relevance.

So the "ramblings" of the Catholic Church...should we pay any heed to them?

no, as I said, they are free to say what they want, but paying heed to one form of ignorance over another simply because of a headcount is foolish, no offence intended

Victor

So were CORI wrong to lecture FF on their social responsibilities today?

sliabh

Rezmuter Duane wrote:

If we gave the FAI the right to influence government, we would be laughed at worldwide.

Just like the GAA has no influence over the government?

Imposter

sliabh wrote:

Just like the GAA has no influence over the government?

Or publicans, or developers, or anyone that has an interest in decisions they come to.

All these groups should have the right to express their opinions. The governemt should be competent enough to make their decisions taking these views on board but coming to a fair decision for all involved.

LegacyUser

Victor wrote:

So were CORI wrong to lecture FF on their social responsibilities today?

bananayoghurt wrote:

no, as I said, they are free to say what they want

anybody can make any point they wish, some will be about issues which have real bearing on peoples lives and if they succeed in influencing gov policy fair play to them, and if it's the Catholic church that makes a point then fair enough also, as long as it's an issue that is cross cultural and pertinant to all, however if its some daft religious thing like all school kids should be made to say the Angelus before lunch or condoms should be banned cause sex before marriage is sinfull then it should be ignored.

bonkey

bananayoghurt wrote:

however if its some daft religious thing ... then it should be ignored.

It should be pointed out that "some daft religious thing" is entirely subjective on someone's point of view.

I know plenty of devout religious people who will think that what you dismiss as something which should be ignored is, in fact, something where the church's guidance is critical and that you are the one to be ignored by saying that the church shouldn't influence us.

Ultimately, we all choose who's guidance we allow to influence us. Thats a personal choice.

jc

sliabh

bonkey wrote:

Ultimately, we all choose who's guidance we allow to influence us. Thats a personal choice.jc

The problem comes when you start imposing your views on others, in particular because you feel that they come from God and therefore must be right.

There are a load of examples in this country, from divorce to sunday opening, pubs being closed on Christmas day and Good Friday and so on. I am not a Catholic but Catholic laws are being imposed on me.

Your religion should be YOUR business, don't force it on everyone else.

LegacyUser

sliabh wrote:

Your religion should be YOUR business, don't force it on everyone else.

exactly

bonkey wrote:

Ultimately, we all choose who's guidance we allow to influence us. Thats a personal choice.

I want to buy drink at 9am on Sunday morning, it's a shame I don't have the luxury of personal choice

Batbat

omnicorp wrote:

Should Religion (ie, The Catholic Church) have a say in how the state is run?

I don't think so as that would be unfair on the people of other Religions.

They can have a say in how the state is run when they sort out how to run themselves without breaking the law and molesting children, bastards!

pork99

sliabh wrote:

There are a load of examples in this country, from divorce to sunday opening, pubs being closed on Christmas day and Good Friday and so on. I am not a Catholic but Catholic laws are being imposed on me.

Your religion should be YOUR business, don't force it on everyone else.

I agree but 2 days a year without a pub ain't going to kill you. I'm not a Catholic either but I think of those as traditional holidays that simply come with pubs being shut as part of that tradition.

err... shops open on Sundays nowadays, you can also get divorced now.

Admittedly it's embarrassing to have to admit to foreigners that we only got divorce legislation 6 or 7 years ago.

therecklessone

Batbat wrote:

That can have a say in how the state is run when they sort out how to run themselves without breaking the law and molesting children, bastards!

:rolleyes:

I was waiting for this. Welcome to my ignore list.

therecklessone

bananayoghurt wrote:

no, as I said, they are free to say what they want, but paying heed to one form of ignorance over another simply because of a headcount is foolish, no offence intended

No offence taken, I'm not a practising Catholic.

I'm just amazed at the violent disdain people show towards RC (see BatBat above) almost exclusively. Its like the Catholic Church has become the whipping boy of Irish society, no matter what it does it gets hammered.

Leave aside the child abuse (and weaseling out of its responsibility to compensate victims) and you'll find that very often it is Church leaders who highlight inequality and issues of social justice.

They should have a right to express whatever they see fit (whether we agree or not), just as SIPTU or IBEC have, but with the same effect, no more, no less. No one group deserves special status in Irish politics.

Batbat

therecklessone wrote:

:rolleyes:

I was waiting for this. Welcome to my ignore list.

happy to be there

Its a mystery to me in light of how the christian church behaves how anyone could defend their institution

sliabh

pork99 wrote:

I agree but 2 days a year without a pub ain't going to kill you. I'm not a Catholic either but I think of those as traditional holidays that simply come with pubs being shut as part of that tradition.

I am not pushed about getting a drink either, but it's the principle of the thing. What are in effect religious holidays are enshrined in law.

pork99 wrote:

err... shops open on Sundays nowadays, you can also get divorced now.

Yeah, the sunday shopping one is a poor example, but it's applicable in other countries.

You see scary examples of this sort of thing in other countries all the time, and not just in the middle east. The influence of Christian right in the US is a prime example. This is one area where I wish we were a lot closer to Berlin than Boston!

Batbat

therecklessone wrote:

Leave aside the child abuse (and weaseling out of its responsibility to compensate victims) and you'll find that very often it is Church leaders who highlight inequality and issues of social justice.

.

are you insane, and the cover-ups and their lawyers harassing victims, leaving all that aside “they do good work”, is that your argument, are you totally deranged?

sliabh

therecklessone wrote:

Leave aside the child abuse (and weaseling out of its responsibility to compensate victims) and you'll find that very often it is Church leaders who highlight inequality and issues of social justice.

They do so where it meshes with their message. In other cases they promote policies that cause a lot of suffering.

The Christian Church's position on birth control and AIDS prevention in the Third World is regressive and causing a lot of undue suffering by refusing to back artifical contraception for one and use of condoms for the other.

daveirl

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Imposter

sliabh wrote:

I am not pushed about getting a drink either, but it's the principle of the thing. What are in effect religious holidays are enshrined in law.


Yeah, the sunday shopping one is a poor example, but it's applicable in other countries.

You see scary examples of this sort of thing in other countries all the time, and not just in the middle east. The influence of Christian right in the US is a prime example. This is one area where I wish we were a lot closer to Berlin than Boston!

Would this be the same Berlin that gets far more of those religious holidays you're talking about than Ireland does?

sliabh

Imposter wrote:

Would this be the same Berlin that gets far more of those religious holidays you're talking about than Ireland does?

Touche!

It's also the same German government where if you declare yourself as a member of a religion they are happy to tax you an extra 10% and pass it on to your church. I have always wondered how popular that would be here if the government brought it in?

But in general European governments are refreshingly secular, even if some like the French are almost militantly so.

Batbat

daveirl wrote:

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yes thats true, and in fairness they have done some good over the years, but the institution as it stands now has very poor morals, its strange the left hand does some good then the right hand does bad, I would not mind but at the same time they preach to other people how they should live.

Imposter

sliabh wrote:

It's also the same German government where if you declare yourself as a member of a religion they are happy to tax you an extra 10% and pass it on to your church. I have always wondered how popular that would be here if the government brought it in?

Is it really 10%? For me here in austria it works out at just over 100€ a year. I've stopped paying it this year as I don't agree with it and have no problem 'changing' my religion if neccessary. A fact ze Germans and especially ze Austrians don't like being reminded of was that this law was put in place by none other than Hr. Hitler himself.

sliabh

Imposter wrote:

Is it really 10%? For me here in austria it works out at just over 100€ a year.

I am open to correction on that one. It's a figure I heard quoted a while back. Google has failed me on this one too

arcadegame2004

I consider religion to be a negative influence on humanity. Evidence? The Inquisition, persecution of Catholics/Protestants/Jew/Muslims by Protestant/Catholic/Catholic+Protestant countries, the ideology of fun=bad, e.g. religious-inspired rambling against gambling and sexual fun between adults, the hypocrisy whererby they tell everyone else not to do something e.g. sex outside marriage, then do it themselves.

The Church and State must be totally separated.

daveirl

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