Tarantino's new film - Inglorious Bastards

ObeyGiant

Karl Hungus wrote:

I didn't think there was anything particularly Western-friendly about the film at all, at least not moreso than any other martial arts movie you'd care to point out. In fact, it's probably a hell of a lot more intelligent than a lot of other martial arts films, so perhaps its sucsess in that sense is a little baffling?

In China, Hero was frequently criticised for being very wishy-washy with its handling of Chinese mythology and legends. And Yhang Zimou hasn't denied this. He's readily admitted that he needed the film to be a success in the west, just so it could recoup its costs, so he deliberately pandered to western audiences and western tastes, to a certain extent.

Karl Hungus wrote:

You're completely 100% on my side.
You just don't know it yet.

I'm on the side that's likely to draw this discussion out as much as possible.

Karl Hungus wrote:

Regaurdless of the amount of other references (And I do admit them to be nothing more than references) Kill Bill does take the bulk of the movie from Lady Snowblood. You say that The Thing counts as a remake because it uses the original heavily as a starting point, but Kill Bill doesn't count yet also uses another film heavily as a starting point? I really don't get you there at all.

I count The Thing as a remake because it took an entire film and revamped it, changing only the things that could have been done better and also the things that wouldn't work with today's audiences. Thematically, it's the same: scientists working in a remote, frozen base find a crashed space ship, they thaw out a living alien, and start getting killed.

But personally speaking, I don't think that Kill Bill has nearly as much in common with Lady Snowblood as you're making out. Thematically, Kill Bill is a simple revenge story (and revenge stories didn't start with Lady Snowblood). Granted, it's a revenge story with samurai swords, but that's roughly it. Take a look at the summary for "Hannie Caulder", another revenge film Tarantino cites as a large influence for the story of Kill Bill:

"Hannie enlists the aid of bounty hunter Tom Price to teach her how to be a gunfighter so she can hunt down the 3 men who killed her husband and raped her."

This was also the central theme of Truffaut's "The Bride Wore Black" - a story of a bride who swears revenge after her husband is killed on their wedding day. Three interesting things about this movie.. first is the fact that this movie also features the bride with a "list" of people to kill. The second is that this movie was accused of "borrowing heavily" from Hitchcock. And the third is that Tarantino claims never to have seen this movie, which serves to highlight the ubiquity of this theme.

Stylistically, Kill Bill has as much in common with Shogun Assassin as LS.

Granted, I've never seen Love Song for Vengeance, but unless Yuki is wearing a yellow jump-suit in it, I just can't accept that there's enough of a similarity between Snowblood and Kill Bill to call it a "remake". And while the fight scene in the estate from LS that you mention is vaguely similar to the scene in Kill Bill, the fight scene in Shadow Warriors looks terrifyingly similar and is clearly the heavier influence.

Karl Hungus wrote:

You're blatantly dismissing the fact that I've never dismissed Kill Bill's references!

Apologies, this came from my interpretation of "So while Shaun obviously has loads of nods to a vast number of different films, I don't see how Kill Bill is doing the same thing". I was reading it wrong.

Karl Hungus

ObeyGiant wrote:

In China, Hero was frequently criticised for being very wishy-washy with its handling of Chinese mythology and legends. And Yhang Zimou hasn't denied this. He's readily admitted that he needed the film to be a success in the west, just so it could recoup its costs, so he deliberately pandered to western audiences and western tastes, to a certain extent.

Fair enough, I'm not really gonna argue with that.

ObeyGiant wrote:

I'm on the side that's likely to draw this discussion out as much as possible.

So you ARE on my side?
Told you so.

ObeyGiant wrote:

I count The Thing as a remake because it took an entire film and revamped it, changing only the things that could have been done better and also the things that wouldn't work with today's audiences. Thematically, it's the same: scientists working in a remote, frozen base find a crashed space ship, they thaw out a living alien, and start getting killed.

But personally speaking, I don't think that Kill Bill has nearly as much in common with Lady Snowblood as you're making out. Thematically, Kill Bill is a simple revenge story (and revenge stories didn't start with Lady Snowblood). Granted, it's a revenge story with samurai swords, but that's roughly it. Take a look at the summary for "Hannie Caulder", another revenge film Tarantino cites as a large influence for the story of Kill Bill:

"Hannie enlists the aid of bounty hunter Tom Price to teach her how to be a gunfighter so she can hunt down the 3 men who killed her husband and raped her."

This was also the central theme of Truffaut's "The Bride Wore Black" - a story of a bride who swears revenge after her husband is killed on their wedding day. Three interesting things about this movie.. first is the fact that this movie also features the bride with a "list" of people to kill. The second is that this movie was accused of "borrowing heavily" from Hitchcock. And the third is that Tarantino claims never to have seen this movie, which serves to highlight the ubiquity of this theme.

Stylistically, Kill Bill has as much in common with Shogun Assassin as LS.

Granted, I've never seen Love Song for Vengeance, but unless Yuki is wearing a yellow jump-suit in it, I just can't accept that there's enough of a similarity between Snowblood and Kill Bill to call it a "remake". And while the fight scene in the estate from LS that you mention is vaguely similar to the scene in Kill Bill, the fight scene in Shadow Warriors looks terrifyingly similar and is clearly the heavier influence.

I'll admit I'm at a loss here as I've not seen most of those films you've mentioned, so I've no frame of reference here. And I've never seen Long Song For Vengeance either, so I'm at a loss there too.

However, as you point out the ubiquity of the 'Revenge' movie, I have to say, that I'm not calling Kill Bill a rip-off simply because of this. You could call Get Carter a revenge movie, but obviously that has no simlarities with Kill Bill. It's more the details of plot than the concept that I'm getting at.

But unfortunatly, as I've said, I'm at a loss right now, so I'm just going to have to say that Kill Bill shouldn't be classed as a remake. Though, seeing as you've made no arguement that Reservoir Dogs isn't a remake of City On Fire, I'm going to assume that you agree with me. (Didn't I tell you that you were on my side?)

I do still contest that the similaraties between KB and LS are far, FAR more than just a simple reference or nod. I'm forced to admit that maybe it's not enough to call Kill Bill a remake, but there is definetly some plagiarism going on there. And considering City On Fire, I certainly wouldn't put it past Tarantino. Also, I wouldn't put it past him to have lied about whether or not he's seen The Bride Wore Black.

ObeyGiant wrote:

Apologies, this came from my interpretation of "So while Shaun obviously has loads of nods to a vast number of different films, I don't see how Kill Bill is doing the same thing". I was reading it wrong.

No bother.