Confusion over rate of provisional driver deaths

Andrew Duffy

Interesting final paragraph:


http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2004/0909/breaking63.htm

Confusion over rate of provisional driver deaths
By David Labanyi

At least ten per cent of the hundreds of people killed on Irish roads each year are provisional licence holders.

Between 1996 and 2002 the percentage of provisional drivers killed each year ranged from 8 to 12 per cent, according to data released by the National Roads Authority (NRA) to ireland.com.

In 2002, of the 346 drivers killed in fatal crashes 313 were full-licence holders and 33 had provisional licences, close to 10.5 per cent.

However, it is understood the actual rate of fatalities from provisional drivers may in fact be higher and more representative of the fact that 20 per cent of people driving do so with provisional licences.

In the same year there were 1,758,124 full licence holders and a further 352,524 provisional licence holders on the road, just over 20 per cent.

The NRA believes there may be underreporting of the number of provisional drivers killed due to the method by which it collects fatal accident data.

Within 24 hours of a fatal crash gardaí complete an accident report and submit it to the Garda Traffic Policy Bureau. There the daily Garda traffic statistics are compiled.

A copy of the accident report is also sent to the NRA, which compiles traffic statistics based on this information. From this information it is able to provide a breakdown of full and provisional licence holders involved in fatal crashes.

However, statisticians in the NRA believe the true percentage of provisional drivers killed is higher because sometimes the licence category on the accident form is blank.

This is because this section of the form is not compulsory and there are cases where the deceased may not have their licence with them. In cases where the licence status is blank the NRA awards full licence status to the deceased.

This information is sent to the Garda Traffic Policy Bureau, but it is not forwarded to the NRA. A source in the Traffic Policy Bureau said this was because the licence status was only of interest to gardaí when deciding what type of criminal proceedings have to be considered.

The Department of Transport plans to introduce a Driver Testing and Standards Authority within the next few months.

A spokeswoman for the Department said that legislation would restrict the amount of time a person could drive on provisional licence and would also make completing a set number of hours of professional training a prerequisite to sitting the driving test.



© 2004 ireland.com

Capt'n Midnight

Andrew Duffy wrote:

A spokeswoman for the Department said that legislation would restrict the amount of time a person could drive on provisional licence and would also make completing a set number of hours of professional training a prerequisite to sitting the driving test.

Restrict the amount of time..
FFS the average driving test is 39.0 Weeks - that's 3/4 of a year and 45% of those who do the test will have to do a retest - so for nearly half of the people who apply for a test 18 months go by. http://www.drivingtest.ie/

Since people are required by law to have a license with them, if there was any interest in enforcing existing road safety laws they could simply order Gardai to ask for licenses at all checkpoints tomorrow and prosecute those driving unaccompaied on anything other than a second provisional. The best bit is that the driver would have to leave the car at the checkpoint and proceed on foot. That could have been done anytime in the last two decades and wasn't so it's all lip-service.

Or maybe they'll even do something about the driving test waiting list so people can't justify driving around without a full license. Like the speeding points, talk is cheap, producing an extra 2,000 Gardai or more driving testers would do a lot more for road safety than all the unenforced leglistation on the books.


http://www.irlgov.ie/debates-03/20May/Sect10.htm Tuesday, 20 May 2003

Minister for Transport (Mr. Brennan): The number of applications for a driving test varies each week. The 2003 average to date is 6,450 applications a week, the bulk of which were received in the first quarter of the year. Applications are currently about 4,000 a week.

At present there are 113 driver testers, ten supervisory testers and one chief driver tester employed by my Department. Each tester conducts 40 driving tests during a normal working week; a reduced number of tests is conducted if the tester is working away from his/her headquarter centre.

The longest waiting time in Dungarvan is now at 29 weeks. The average waiting time, which is derived having regard to waiting times experienced by individual applicants in Dungarvan during the last four weeks, is 20 weeks.

So 6,450 applications a week divided by 40 tests per week per tester means 163.5 testers are needed to prevent the queues getting worse, and you need more to cover for holidays and absences and training etc..

37.5 hours to pass or fail 40 people and do all the paper work etc. but then again only three people die on our roads per tester per year.

BTW: current waiting time on Dungarvin is 48 Weeks

Lets hope the new Driver Testing and Standards Authority will deliver what the current system hasn't...


Also can some one ask them to get stats on the number of dead drivers that got their licenses via the Amnesty a while back..

unkel

Andrew Duffy wrote:

In cases where the licence status is blank the NRA awards full licence status to the deceased

Why?

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Since people are required by law to have a license with them, if there was any interest in enforcing existing road safety laws they could simply order Gardai to ask for licenses at all checkpoints tomorrow and prosecute those driving unaccompaied on anything other than a second provisional. The best bit is that the driver would have to leave the car at the checkpoint and proceed on foot. That could have been done anytime in the last two decades and wasn't so it's all lip-service.

Fully agree with your post, Capt'n. Irish solution to an Irish problem once again and in this case people die because of it :mad:

The only way you can get yet another provisional license, is if you have proved you are incompetent and incapable of driving :rolleyes:

sceptre

Andrew Duffy wrote:

A spokeswoman for the Department said that legislation would restrict the amount of time a person could drive on provisional licence and would also make completing a set number of hours of professional training a prerequisite to sitting the driving test.

Considering they made a big thing of saying that they were going to start enforcing the existing provisions about unaccompanied provisional drivers and then never bothered, added to Cap'n Midnight's comments about the average wait for a test being nine months and why should we believe them. Let's ignore whether it's right or wrong for someone on a first provisional (or third or subsequent) to break the unenforced law and drive unaccompanied. Let's ignore whether it's right or wrong for someone on their second provisional to be able to legally drive unaccompanied, including just after failing a test. if they're not going to ignore the existing law because of political repercussions, funding or sheer laziness, why would anyone think that they're actually going to do anything fancy like limiting the number of provisional licences anyone can have or making the passing of a test compulsory within a certain period?

impr0v

unkel wrote:

Why?

I'd imagine it's because statistically the deceased is more likely to have had a full than a provisional licence. A more correct way of doing it would be to mark the licence status as provisional in 20% of the status unknown cases.

original article wrote:

In the same year there were 1,758,124 full licence holders and a further 352,524 provisional licence holders on the road, just over 20 per cent.

350k+ drivers who have yet to prove that they are able to drive, and in many cases have been proven to be unable to drive, on our roads. Laughable.

The plan to suddenly enforce the unaccompanied driving is fine in theory, but couldn't be put into practice without some serious action on the testing wait times, and also, as part of the bigger picture, a viable public transport network. If you remove the large percentage of those 350k drivers that are driving unaccompanied from the workforce without notice, there are going to be knock-on effects on the economy for a period of time while they sort out an alterative means of getting to and from work.

unkel

impr0v wrote:

350k+ drivers who have yet to prove that they are able to drive, and in many cases have been proven to be unable to drive, on our roads

Exactly. Unfortunately it's not a joke

impr0v wrote:

The plan to suddenly enforce the unaccompanied driving is fine in theory, but couldn't be put into practice without some serious action on the testing wait times

Absolutely, you have to give all existing learners plenty of notice so they have enough time to learn how to drive (lessons!) and being able to sit the test while in the mean time ensuring waiting lists are dramatically reduced

For starters the government could announce now that from 01/01/06 no learner license would be valid anymore, every driver needs to have a full license. From 01/07/05 no second or third provisional license would be issued

And strictly enforce those rules then. Watch the death toll dropping

Capt'n Midnight

impr0v wrote:

.... a viable public transport network. If you remove the large percentage of those 350k drivers that are driving unaccompanied from the workforce without notice, there are going to be knock-on effects on the economy for a period of time while they sort out an alterative means of getting to and from work.

Less traffic for a start so public transport might have a chance of working. Had this been done before we could have saved money on roads - 20% of the NRA's budget isn't chicken feed.

Seriously just now there was an ad on BBC (Twin Warriors - the dubbing is so bad I've got subtitles on) where they claim it takes 2 hours to learn to program a video and 6 hours to built self assembly furniture and 40 hours to learn to drive. 40 hours - and let's face it you need to be doing more than an hour a day coming up to your test....

unkel

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

and 40 hours to learn to drive

In the Netherlands it takes an average of about 60-80 hours of lessons with fully qualified instructers, in dual control learner vehicles, taken in blocks of 1 or 2 hours to pass the test

This is expensive (€3k) and it's a cultural kinda thing for the parents to pay for it

If you get caught driving without a license, you are typically given a hefty fine and a time delay, e.g. you aren't allowed to apply for a test for another 3 years

If you pass the test in the Netherlands, you are considered to be a learner driver. Your experience as a driver only starts then. However you are given the benefit of the doubt and you're able to get cheap insurance (for a young driver ballpark €300 versus €3000 here). The fairytale ends of course if you have a claim

The Muppet

I dont think it would be fair to stop existing provisional drivers from driving on their own but I would support a law change enforcing that all new applicants be accompanied . That way you are not removing anyones ability drive and in the longer term will have the same effect as A complete ban,

I do not think it is necessary to enforce people to take lessons. I think this would be the go ahead for driving schools to charge what the like and thats not a good scenario in rip off Ireland. An alternative would be a non profit making state run introductory course to cover the basics and only when the driver has achieved an acceptable standard are they are allowed get a provisional licence.