Pathetic interview with Russian politician

arcadegame2004

I watched Prime Time tonight. Am I the only one outraged at Miriam's failure to bring up the issue of Russians massacre's in Chechnya? The female politician was arrogant and imperialist. But then, most of the Russians think it's okay to commit genocide, as long as it helps "Mother Russia" retain their fascist rule in the Caucasus.

I personally will not be buying anything from Russia if I can help it until they end their Nazi policies in Chechnya. Putin is an evil monster. I make no exaggeration in pouring out my hatred for him. He is the Hitler of Chechnya. He is without feeling, without emotion, other than a intense hatred of Chechens. His puppet government in Chechnya is a new Vichy-regime, with Alu Alkhanov about to become the new Marshall Petain.

I demand that our pathetic Western governments speak out on Chechnya.

mike65

AracadeGame I may have missed something not having read ALL your contributions to politics, so I have to ask -

Whats the beef you have with Russia?

Are you Chechen? Do you know one? Are you married to one?

Mike.

aidan_walsh

The Russian bride he ordered was lost in the mail...

arcadegame2004

AracadeGame I may have missed something not having read ALL your contributions to politics, so I have to ask -

Whats the beef you have with Russia?

No. My bone to pick with them is outrage at their genocidal policies in Chechnya. Like the Chechens, we are a small nation that has been ruthlessly oppressed for centuries, and hence I see Putin as an Oliver Cromwell-style butcher. I am sickened that any electorate could elect someone like that. I am also outraged that their army is carrying out the worst war-crimes Europe has seen since the Nazis.

I call for a boycott of Russian goods until they clean up their act. Preferably a worldwide or EU boycott. Genocide is genocide, even when a large country is committing it. Arrogant Russia needs to be brought to its senses.

The silence of Western governments towards Russians massacres in Chechnya stands in sharp contrast to their positions during the Kosovo War. They are actually continuing to grant Russia loans with which to pay for the slaughter in Chechnya. There are Beslans every day in Chechnya, and the Western governments turn a bling eye. Shame on you Blair for dodging the questions on Chechnya in your press conference yesterday. The spirit of Vichy is alive and well, I see.

Redleslie2

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I personally will not be buying anything from Russia if I can help it until they end their Nazi policies in Chechnya.

I'll give up the Beluga caviar if you go off the 98% proof brain razing Siberian home brewed vodka for a while.

MrPudding

I know. Why don't we let them all come over here. Of course they would have to fly here directly and not land anywhere else in between but I am sure you would welcome them.

MrP

arcadegame2004

I'll give up the Beluga caviar if you go off the 98% proof brain razing Siberian home brewed vodka for a while.

Having seen what happened with my father having to go on dyalaysis and then have a kidney-transplant followed by cancer-causing anti-rejection drugs. I actually will never drink alcohol again.

If we are to be consistent in our condemnation of brutal wars, in a manner that shows we are not simply being anti-American, then we must condemn war-crimes from whererver they come. We should not be selective about which genocides we condemn. We need backbone in Western capitals.

The Russian economy is about the size of Hollands, in spite of its huge population. They are not important to the West in terms of trade. We have potential leverage over them in the form of the loans Western governments give Russia. These should be refused until the Kremlin learns to stop massacring innocent civilians. Vlad the Impaler must be brought to heal.

the_syco

Chechnya shouldn't have bombed Russia when they got independence after the Berlin Wall fell. A few other USSR states got independence. Chechnya got it, bombed Russia, and they've been bombing each other since. Yes, I've seen teh sh*t that goes on in Chechnya, but no-one cares.

Why?

Cos the IRA had some type of morals. They mainly went after military, RUC, or related targets. Chechnans go after civilians. Every time. 2 planes got blown up. Did they care who was on board? No. So I say let the Russians bomb Chechnya. When they stop killing civilians, and only go after military targets, maybe I'll give a damn.

spongebob

Yawn. Whats the point in giving out about Miriam. Miriam is a pompous and myopic bag with an extremely limited capacity for elucidation.......especially when hectoring is the easier option. However, Miriams researchers landed her with the equally pompous and myopic foreign affairs committee woman . They deserved each other in a morbidly symettrical way but nothing got sorted by it .

While Putin is not the single worst thing that happened to Chechnya he will not end the war or broker any form of political settlement . Therefore the horror will go on there. At least 10% of the population of Chechnya were killed by the Russians in the 1994-96 incursion alone and many more since.

The Chechens feel that the Russians have them cornered and wish to widen the war to include the neighbouring Caucuses republics. The most recent of the wars , the current Russian incursion, was caused by the Chechens invading Dagestan to the east a few years back so thats not a new strategy is it . This time the Chechens may get what they wanted . The Trinity Prof on Primetime described the Caususes as a manyfold Yugoslavia ready to blow.

I have every confidence in the ability of the Russian security forces to make a barbaric murderous shambles of the whole region ...and not just Chechnya and parts of Ingushetia as at present and in the ability of the Georgians to provoke the Russians once too often and thereby internationalise the conflict ....albeit chaotically and unpredictably. Unlike with Yugoslavia in 1991 it is really quite hard to predict the political outcome but a death toll in the low to mid 100's of 1000's by the end of this decade is probably a good start

M

therecklessone

the_syco wrote:

Cos the IRA had some type of morals. They mainly went after military, RUC, or related targets.

This isn't the place for that discussion, but how do these grab you?

Warrington

Guilford

Birmingham

Frizzel's fish shop

La Mon

Jean McConville

arcadegame2004

the_syco wrote:

Chechnya shouldn't have bombed Russia when they got independence after the Berlin Wall fell. A few other USSR states got independence. Chechnya got it, bombed Russia, and they've been bombing each other since. Yes, I've seen teh sh*t that goes on in Chechnya, but no-one cares.

Why?

Cos the IRA had some type of morals. They mainly went after military, RUC, or related targets. Chechnans go after civilians. Every time. 2 planes got blown up. Did they care who was on board? No. So I say let the Russians bomb Chechnya. When they stop killing civilians, and only go after military targets, maybe I'll give a damn.

The PIRA had some kind of morals? They didn't go after innocent civilians? That's news to me! :rolleyes: Colin Parry would be interested in hearing that.

There you are. Tarring all the Chechens with the same brush. According to you, this was "the Chechens" who killled civilians. That is just like saying that it was "the Irish" who bombed Warrington etc. And I suppose you think it was "the Irish" who bombed Omagh too?

The Chechen rebel movement is not a monolith. It has splintered into an Islamist faction led by Basayev, and a more moderate faction led by the elected President (elected in 1997) Aslan Maskhadov. The Russians are lying when they say that Maskhadov had a role in Beslan. Their claim he was is a propaganda tactic by the Kremlin in order to deflect pressure for Putin to talk to him.

In the 1798 Rebellion, 700 men, women, and children were rounded up by Republican forces and burned alive in Scullabogue. This was a terrible attrocity. But did it mean "the Irish" i.e. the majority or all of them, were murderers of civilians? Of course not! Kindly stop the blood libel against the Chechen people.

The Russian state is even crueller than Israel.

aidan_walsh

There you are. Tarring all the Chechens with the same brush.

I just **** myself laughing there. This line, from a person whose been saying nothing but "the Russians", and included "most of the Russians think it's okay to commit genocide" in the opening post...

Ah, to be able to believe what I want when I want like you can...

arcadegame2004

doodle_sketch wrote:

I just **** myself laughing there. This line, from a person whose been saying nothing but "the Russians", and included "most of the Russians think it's okay to commit genocide" in the opening post...

Ah, to be able to believe what I want when I want like you can...

Well my discussions with Russians have revealed to me that they feel that they have some sort of god-given right to oppress the peoples of the Caucasus. Of course, there are a few exceptions, but not very many.

The outrage currently being directed at Chechens would be directed at the Russians if Putin allowed the Western media into Chechnya to see what is going on. Certainly, Putin is a war-criminal, and a far greater one than any of the Chechens.

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Well my discussions with Russians have revealed to me that they feel that they have some sort of god-given right to oppress the peoples of the Caucasus. Of course, there are a few exceptions, but not very many.

Very scientific of you. Must have been a cross section of Russian society, was it?

arcadegame2004

therecklessone wrote:

Very scientific of you. Must have been a cross section of Russian society, was it?

Given the 2 elections of Vlad the Mad I would say so.

Redleslie2

How does one reconcile this rubbish...

arcadegame2004 wrote:

If we are to be consistent in our condemnation of brutal wars, in a manner that shows we are not simply being anti-American, then we must condemn war-crimes from whererver they come. We should not be selective about which genocides we condemn. We need backbone in Western capitals.

...with this rubbish?

arcadegame2004 wrote:

We need to be careful not to elect someone like Michael D. who I fear (though I might be wrong) could use the Presidency to make speeches denouncing US foreign policy and President Bush. While in some instances I would agree with such criticisms, a small country dependent on exports to the US and the EU needs to tread carefully, possibly including keeping their mouths shut sometimes.

Surely it requires more backbone to criticise powerful states that could impose a trade embargo and banjax the economy in a week or convert the whole place to an airbase in the morning if they felt like it than to criticise a mickey mouse country like Russia which, says you, is of negligible importance to us economically.

Your arguments are making even less sense than usual in fairness.

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Given the 2 elections of Vlad the Mad I would say so.

Marvelous. You should try a career in political science... :rolleyes:

therecklessone

AG2004, in this thread you claim the following

AG2004 wrote:

It is a shame that the Russian public are being punished for the crimes of their leaders. They are not even aware of those crimes, because of the dictatorial control Putin has established over the media.

Now you claim this

AG2004 wrote:

Well my discussions with Russians have revealed to me that they feel that they have some sort of god-given right to oppress the peoples of the Caucasus. Of course, there are a few exceptions, but not very many.

If you believe the first quote, how can you blame that sample of Russian's you've spoken to (and the entire Russian people as you are wont to do) for their lack of knowledge of whats going on in Chechnya?

Isn't it true that you can't remember what you've posted in the past because you're twisting this way and that, with no consistency in what you have to say?

arcadegame2004

If you believe the first quote, how can you blame that sample of Russian's you've spoken to (and the entire Russian people as you are wont to do) for their lack of knowledge of whats going on in Chechnya?

I was reading up tonight on opinion-polls in Russia that sampled Russian public opinion on Chechnya. I will try to find the links to the pages I read. But the general gist of their findings were that Russians felt that Chechens should have less protection for their civil-rights than Russians themselves. I also read that in the months leading up to the 1999 return of the hated Russian soldiers to Chechnya, Yeltsin and Putin began a media propaganda war which even including suggestions that the Chechens had DNA that made them murderers. Kind of like the Nazi propaganda against the Jews.

I see no contradiction in my two earlier statements. My point was that it was a shame that the Russians living in Beslan were forced to suffer for Russian genocide in Chechnya of which they knew little, sue to the Kremlin's creeping Soviet-style reassertion of control over the media (Anna Polakaskaya was a journalist critical of the war in Chechnya and she was mysteriously poisoned on her way to Beslan - we know who was behind it).

That is not to say that if the Russians did know, that they would not have supported the massacres of Chechens. They have an imperial mindset. They seek to compensate the damaging affect on morale caused by Russia's poverty by colonial oppression that gives them a sense of their "superiority" over the Caucasian peoples. Considering how the Irish were treated by Britain, I see a definite parallel here, and I urge the EU to press Russia to allow human-rights monitors into Chechnya and to allow access to humanitarian NGO's such as the Red Cross. The killing of innocent civilians can NEVER be justified.

May I add the following: Any attempt to persuade me that the Russian political elite are not responsible for the massacres in Chechnya will not work. A glance at Russian history illustrates very vividly the extreme ruthlessness of Russia towards its minorities. Look what Stalin did to the Chechens and the Ingush, as well as the Georgians and the Ukrainians. Contrary to Soviet propaganda at the time and since, the Chechens and Ingush had NOT collaborated with the Nazis (the Nazis had not even reached Chechnya at any point in the war). They were deported because Stalin feared they would collaborate. The Tsars were no better, with their policies of Russification which has led to a situation whererby in Belarus, just 10% of the population now speak Belarussian.

bonkey

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I was reading up tonight on opinion-polls in Russia that sampled Russian public opinion on Chechnya.

So everything you posted before that evening to do with what the Russians knew/thought about Chechnya and the situation there was made up?

But the general gist of their findings were that Russians felt that Chechens should have less protection for their civil-rights than Russians themselves.

Bit like you seem to feel about immigrants and asylum-seekers in Ireland. You seem to have found some unlikely soulmates. At least they have an excuse (going from posts you have made) in the form of actually not having access to any of the truth about whats happening in Chechnya. Whats your excuse?

That is not to say that if the Russians did know, that they would not have supported the massacres of Chechens.

Ah...so what you're saying is that while "The Russians" can't be held guilty for supporting something they didn't know the details about....that you believe "The Russians" would have supported it if they had known.

a) Complete and utter assumption, and I can't even figure out what its based on, given that you've just argued that one reason "The Russians" think like this is because of state-fed propaganda and misinformation.

b) Look who's tarring everyone with the same brush again, or have I not emphasised "The Russians" enough to make it clear yet?


jc

arcadegame2004

Bonkey, as a small nation that faced genocide from the British, we are morally obliged to stand against the tyranny of empires. Please do not defend the Putin tyranny and its Vichy puppet, Alu Alkhanov.

I have just come back from reading a Russian forum on the war in Chechnya, where my suspicions were confirmed. Someone on the forum said that killing civilians was okay if it was "in a cause". Also, he said that if necessary, they should kill every single Chechen man, woman, and child. How sick can these people be? Didn't a certain Cromwell say stuff like that about us? He acted on it too.

I am not tarring everyone with the same brush. But the polls always show that the Russians are absolutely delighted by Putin's policy of exterminating the so-called "inferior-peoples", just like Nazi Germany (e.g. 80% of Russians supporting the war in Chechnya). Call this what it is "fascist". The Russians must get out of Chechnya. It makes no sense for Russian mothers to have to get their sons back in body-backs as a result of a pointless Crusade against Muslim men, women and children.

Putin is a tyrant and while generally-speaking I try not to think unfavourably of other nations, I must confess that the mass slaughter of the Chechen-people by a brutal army of barbarians, together with Putin's determination to label ALL Chechen separatists as "terrorists" has made me increasingly anti-Russian, in the same way as people felt increasingly anti-Nazi in Western countries as the true nature of the Nazi regime in Germany became clear.

Look what happened to Anna Polakaskaya. She had the temerity to criticise Putin's policy in Chechnya, and she ends up poisoned. Coincidence? I think not. Look too at the sacking of the editor of the Izvestiya newspaper for criticising the Kremlin. But by bit, Putin is reestablishing the brutal dictatorship Russia waved goodbye to in 1991. The press are suppressed, the television-channels have all been taken over by the Government, using excuses like debts owed to Gasprom etc. Public-demonstrations have just been banned. The elections and referendums in Chechnya were rigged. Almost no television time was given to Putin's competitors in the Presidential Election in Russia. It shouldn't take a rocker-scientist to figure out what Putin's game is. His treatment of the Chechens is also a return to the repressive treatment experienced by them under the Soviet system, including people being taken away to be shot. How can anyone not hate this guy?

bonkey

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Bonkey, as a small nation that faced genocide from the British, we are morally obliged to stand against the tyranny of empires. Please do not defend the Putin tyranny and its Vichy puppet, Alu Alkhanov.

I could say the same to you every time you oppose people getting away from brutal regimes by opposing asylum in Ireland.

And before you misinterpret that, let me be more explicit. I have in no way defended the Putin tyranny, nor that of Alkhanov. Stop putting words in my mouth - its just further proof of the point that I was actually trying to make, which is that your entire argument is confused.

You seem to have totally lost track of the fact that the Russians did not kidnap those kids. Yes, I accept fully that much of how the Russians treat Chechnya is atrocious, but you seem to have forgotten that this latest incident which you are frothing at the mouth at was not done at their instigation (unless you'd like to start a conspiracy theory that the terrorists were Russian plants).

Furthermore, you spend all this time frothing further about teh atrocities that the Russians comitted. Every eye witness account I've heard from the events in the school say the terrorists opened fire, and fired at the backs of the then-fleeing hostages.

And you blame the Russians.

Given that you've just listed our occupation under England as a reason why we have to support teh Chechens here, I would therefore have to equate your assignment of the blame here with someone blaming the British for the Enniskillen or the Docklands bombings.

I have just come back from reading a Russian forum on the war in Chechnya, where my suspicions were confirmed.

Really? Someone reading this forum would have their suspicions confirmed that Ireland is - in reality - full of left-wing peacenik socialist tree-huggers.

I didn't think I'd have to point this out, but.....online fora are in no way representative of a population. They aren't representative of a population in a relatively well-connected nation, so they sure as sh1t aren't representative of a population in a nation such as Russia.

Someone on the forum said that killing civilians was okay if it was "in a cause".

You'll find quite a number of people on this forum have said more or less the same thing when it comes to civilian deaths from US and other operations. I don't see you standing up screaming for justice against the heavy-handed manner in which the Americans deal with terrorism which has - in part - sprung up because of the manner in which the Western world has treated the Middle East as some sort of playground.

No - the US can do what they like to terrorists, and kill as many civilians as is necessary along the way, but as soon as the Russians do the same.....woof...then its a different ballgame.

Exactly what did you want the Russians to do in the school? Negotiate with terrorists? Capitulate to terrorists? Stand idly by once the terrorists started killing civilians?

Also, he said that if necessary, they should kill every single Chechen man, woman, and child. How sick can these people be?

So we've gone from "he said" to "these people". How soon before we're back to "The Russians" as you simultaneously give out to everyone else who uses an unqualified plural for "tarring everyone with the same brush".

Firstly, there are nuts in every society - people who hold views which are abhorrent to the majority.

Secondly, I will again reiterate that you pointed out that the Russian people are underinformed and over-propagandised about the Chechens. Now you're telling us that they are sick people because they've actually believed the lies they were told?

Thirdly...can you give us the link to this site? I assume its in Russian (what else would Russians speak), but thats no problem...I have some Russian-speaking mates who will give me a hand. If its not in Russian, incidentally, then I'd very much question how you know these were views expressed by Russians. In any case, I'd still question how you've concluded these views represent those held by any significant portion of the 145-odd million population.

I am not tarring everyone with the same brush.

You're just doing exactly what others have done which you've been giving out as "tarring with the same brush" - that being making assumptions about a population/people based on the actions of a tiny minority, or just referring to them in an unqualified plural (e.g. "the Russians".

If you want to insist that this isn't tarring with the same brush, I'm quite happy to accept that, as long as you stop making those allegations and will discuss the points raised instead of dismissing them in that manner. While you continue to lambast others with the insistence that their arguments are tarring, then your similarly worded arguments can be considered nothing else.

But the polls always show

Then show us the polls. Stop telling us you read them last night, or that you will get around to it and just show us the damn things.

I can't believe its so hard to actually think while reading something "oh, this might be useful in terms of the discussion I'm having on boards. Maybe I should bookmark it so I can reference it".

I mean, its not like being asked for linkage to your latest set of stuff you swear is true is something that hasn't happened before.

So show us the polls. Until you do, I'm just going to ignore them because I can have no faith in your accurately representing or interpreting mathematical information based on past experience.

jc
jc

Stabshauptmann

therecklessone wrote:

This isn't the place for that discussion, but how do these grab you?

Warrington

Guilford

Birmingham

Frizzel's fish shop

La Mon

Jean McConville

Your links are non-viewable as they bring us non registered ppl to a sign up page. The fact that the IRA has killed civilians doesnt actually negate the_syco's point that they showed a preference for military targets.

Lemming

arcadegame2004 wrote:

But the polls always show that the Russians are absolutely delighted by Putin's policy of exterminating the so-called "inferior-peoples", just like Nazi Germany

Two things spring to mind arcadesywadsey ....

1. would you mind showing detailed, /credible/ proof of a policy of "extermination"? Are the russians rounding up people and throwing them into concentration camps to be burned in ovens/gased with ziklon B?

2. On that note, by bringing the nazi's into your argument you've automatically lost your entire argument.

Godwins Law is a b*tch isn't it? ........

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Redleslie2

Lemming wrote:

Two things spring to mind arcadesywadsey ....

1. would you mind showing detailed, /credible/ proof of a policy of "extermination"? Are the russians rounding up people and throwing them into concentration camps to be burned in ovens/gased with ziklon B?

Articles on alleged massacre in Grozny here and here.
LA Times article on what Russian troops call 'bespredel' - no limits.

therecklessone

Necromancer wrote:

Your links are non-viewable as they bring us non registered ppl to a sign up page. The fact that the IRA has killed civilians doesnt actually negate the_syco's point that they showed a preference for military targets.

Well I don't know how they do, the first two are from the BBC site, and the other four didn't ask me for registration (and I hadn't visited those sites prior to last night)

Anyway, maybe you'll be able to see this one:

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/cts/tables.htm

Total deaths attributed to Republican paramilitaries (1969-1994) 1896
Civilian deaths attributed to Republican paramilitaries 704

Thats 37% of all deaths were civilian

[note]I accept that Republican paramilitaries covers ALL republican groups, but I think we all agree the IRA were responsible for the majority of Republican killings in the troubles[/note]

Anyway, I mentioned those links to show the original poster that teh IRA weren't as "moral" as he'd like to think. And like I said, this is a topic for ANOTHER THREAD!

bonkey

Yes indeed...its for another thread, and lets keep it that way please.

jc

Redleslie2

therecklessone wrote:

Total deaths attributed to Republican paramilitaries (1969-1994) 1896
Civilian deaths attributed to Republican paramilitaries 704

Thats 37% of all deaths were civilian

That doesn't mean they were all the IRA's primary targets though. They had phases where they targeted civilians on purely sectarian grounds but by and large they attacked military and economic targets. Sometimes there was collateral damage as they say these days. Sometimes there were screwups. Eg. Above Frizzells chip shop was the HQ of the UDA and the bomb went off prematurely.


Oops, going way OT, will delete if asked to do so.

ary

May be someone will be interested in reading this
http://www.lib.ru/MEMUARY/CHECHNYA/chechen_war.txt

sovtek

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Some would (arguably) consider the Irish Famine to be of a genocidal nature.