Permitted Firearms Types

civdef

It would seem inevitable new restrictions as to what sorts of firearms are licencable (sp?) will be introduced.

What form would you like these to take?


Mine:

Shotguns: As per current situation.

Rifles: Up to .22 rimfire - as per current situation. Any higher calibre would require the applicant to have held a shotgun or 22 rimfire rifle for at least 12 months previously. Centre-fire semi-automatics restricted to service rifle type match shooting competitions (which would rule out a lot of the cheap/nasty bad PR types), evidence of taking active part in these competitions required annually.

Handguns: No compact handguns -> in practice something around a 4" min barrel length and a minimum weight sufficient to rule out the PPKs etc. For 22lr handguns, the applicant would have to hold a shotgun or rifle cert for at least 12 months previously. For anything bigger than 22lr, the applicant would have to have held a 22lr handgun licence for 12 months previously. Evidence of taking active part in these competitions required annually.

The time limits are intended to prevent someone walking off the street and buying the biggest gun in the shop because of perceived "coolness".
The requirement to take part in organised competition would be to rule out the people who buy a gun just to have one. The competitions would not be limited to ISSF disciplines, so as to allow less formal events at local level - similar to that found in sporting rifle clubs.


Anyone else?

Sparks

civdef wrote:

It would seem inevitable new restrictions as to what sorts of firearms are licencable (sp?) will be introduced.

Completely inevitable if you ask me... especially since I've been hearing rumours of how the DoJ is already going ballistic at the current situation.

What form would you like these to take?

Oh lor'...
This is likely to get you put on the ****list for some of "those shooters" Civ

But since I'm already at the top of that list


General:
I believe we should be switching from our current, one licence per firearm setup, to an Irish FAC system - where the person is licenced, not the firearm. (ie. you have a licence, it lasts for five years, and all of your firearms are listed on it. This is the system in the UK and Northern Ireland.)

There should also be a regular consultation process between the DoJ, the Gardai, and the various bodies who govern shooting in Ireland - the NARGC, the ICPSA, the NTSA, the NSAI, and so on. And I mean a scheduled, regular, sit-down-at-a-table-with-the-minister meeting, not lip service.

And there should be a means of appealing a decision by a Garda superintendent that didn't involve the High Court.

And there should be a required mandatory training course in firearms law and firearms for Gardai who have to enforce firearms law - and an oversight body who ensure that firearms law is enforced, because as the Barr Tribunal is showing, that doesn't happen right now.


Shotguns:
I don't know enough to comment, but I'm confident enough in the ICPSA lads to leave it to them. I do think, however, that semi-autos should be treated as being a wee bit more dangerous than the normal under-and-overs. But that's just me.

Rifles:
Rimfire, up to .22 calibre, ought to be easy to licence so long as you're in a firearms club, whether it be target shooting or hunting. I'm not convinced however, that the simple owning of land should be sufficent to get a licence as it is now - owning land doesn't ensure you're taught how to shoot safely, and as the accident in Boyle showed, .22 rimfires can't be treated as popguns...

Rifles with a calibre greater than .22, or centerfire rifles of any calibre, would need a shooting club to sign off on the applicant as having shot for a year and being of good standing; and the applicant must have a safe place to shoot on; but after that, then any rifle ought to be allowed so long as it wasn't fully automatic. So semi-auto service rifles could be allowed, but you'd only be able to shoot them on certified ranges like the Midlands or Ballykindler or whereever. However, ammunition should be more tightly controlled. I mean, you can shoot .50 cal in the UK and for long-range target shooting, it's fine (though there aren't too many ranges!), but you can't use the .50 cal rifles for "materiel destruction" because the ammo to do that is strictly illegal.
And your licence for rifles like that should be tied to being in a club and taking part in competitions, to ensure that a standard of competency is upheld. (Private pilots in Ireland, for example, can only keep their licence if they fly for a minimum amount of time per year - it used to be 5 hours/year, I think it's now changed to a smaller number of hours every 60 days - so there is precedent for this).

Airguns:
Anything with a muzzle energy of 7 Joules or less shouldn't need a licence. That's the situation in every other european country. (The limit is higher in the UK, it's 12 foot/pounds for an air rifle and 6 for a pistol). That means that the olympic target shooting stuff, BB guns, airsoft pistols, etc, etc, would no longer need firearms licences.

Handguns:
Air pistols as above.
Rimfire pistols up to .22 calibre, with a maximum magazine size (for ISSF it'd have to be at least five rounds, but a higher max size of say 10 or 12 would cater to plinkers better) and a minimum barrel length of at least five inches.
The applicant would have to have the same conditions as for a centerfire rifle, and for a centerfire pistol, would have to have had a .22 pistol for a year as well.
That's pretty similar to other countries like Canada.

And all of those changes should take into account prior experience - ie. if they came in tomorrow, Nick Flood wouldn't have to stop shooting fullbore for a year while waiting for his licence!

Sparks

Oh, and reloading should also be allowed, but again, should be something you have to earn to have on your FAC, by doing a course or whatever. After all, it does require you to be allowed buy what are technically explosives, and it's not a trivial task!

civdef

Smokeless powder isn't technically an explosive.

Primers are, but for that matter, so are toy gun caps.

civdef

I'm not convinced of the need for a person to be in a hunting club. Plenty hunters I know are in no club, and none the worse for it. In the absence of club membership, a safety exam would be the ticket, I reckon. Club members, of course would do the exam also.

red vex

Smokeless powder isn't technically an explosive.

How could that be? Lighting a tin of powder would cause and explosion hence that tin contains explosives. Is it just a legal categorisation or something?

I'm not convinced of the need for a person to be in a hunting club. Plenty hunters I know are in no club, and none the worse for it. In the absence of club membership, a safety exam would be the ticket, I reckon. Club members, of course would do the exam also.

Agreed. but at the same time ian exam would push up gun ownership costs. I realise safety is the most important issue but I doubt if i could have bought and keep my guns if it were to cost much more

civdef

If you throw a match into a tin of smokeless powder you'll get a pretty intense fire, but no explosion. It's do do with rates of pressure increase/containment/burning velocity etc.

There already is a safety programme in place with the NARGC for young shooters, and if I remember right, it's free. It's also very good. Somthing like this would be what I have in mind, organised by the shooting organisations themselves instead of the government, though obviously in consultation with and monitored by the Gardai etc.

Sparks

civdef wrote:

Smokeless powder isn't technically an explosive.
Primers are, but for that matter, so are toy gun caps.

Yup, it was the primers I was referring to!

Sparks

civdef wrote:

I'm not convinced of the need for a person to be in a hunting club. Plenty hunters I know are in no club, and none the worse for it. In the absence of club membership, a safety exam would be the ticket, I reckon. Club members, of course would do the exam also.

So long as the actual aim (namely that there be some independent judge of competency and safety - not the Gardai who aren't trained to judge, and not the shooter who can't be objective - exists) is fulfilled.

mcguiver

All suggestions so far seem good, although personally, I'm in a club and dont shoot competitions..I avoid them like the plague. So even with training, safety courses etc. I'd hate to have to start shooting competitions to hold a pistol etc.

I think the re-loading issue should be hit on the head for the near future. The govt + Gardai have enough to cope with at the moment on firearms legislation I remember talking to a senior official a few years ago when there was talk of re-introducing pistols... he told me that the re-loading issue had clouded the argument and just messed up the lot. Pardon the pun... but we should bite the bullet on that one for a while. Softly softly approach and if we all act responsibly I think things can go well.

Sparks

How come you avoid competitions mcguiver?

mcguiver

I wouldn't consider myself a great shot , and dont have the time/right firearm to compete.
I do enjoy shooting as a pastime, its almost a form of meditation to concentrate on the target. Watching people at competitions many look so stressed and take it so seriously. Of course there are many who can have a joke and chat and still be excellent shots...each to their own I suppose.

Irishglockfan

Well I'll throw in my 2cents worth here.
1]Scrap the annual liscense fee thing.Liscense the man not the gun.On a ten year basis.Standard fee 500 euros.Same restrictions apply and you must prove personal liability insurance of up to EU standard of 1million Euros.Again an incentive to be in a shooting organisation.
2]Secure storage of all guns,within limits set down by the law.If you have over a certain no of guns you must have a certain type of storage facility,or gun safe.
3]Types of guns.
Shotguns and rifles up to 308 of all types as before.Be a gunclub member,own land where you can use it safely or have deer hunting availability
4]handguns.
air pistols /air rifles all types no restrictions apart from std liscense.
soft air no restrictions
Blank firers/deacts same

22lr[all types] Have in your possesion a firearms cert for five or more years,and prove by doing a competancy test in a recognised club on the firearm.Somthing along the US CCW test
22lr upwards
Same as above but must prove competancy in the firearm once a year at an approved range.

Crossbows remove from the liscense altogether and put under a 21 years of age restriction.Buyable under a picture ID.

50cal [if you are that rich]
Membership of an approved club that has the facilities.The gun can only be used on that type of range.

Reloading A profiency course in reloading getting you an additional "light explosive" addition on your cert,run by your local gun club.you may only reload for your own use.[more of an insurance and liability issue]

Black powder weapons.Special reloading course and liscensed as any other weapon.

Sparks

Er, I think you mean public liability insurance up to 1 million!

Irishglockfan

right there Sparks.was 1am or thereabouts when I wrote this :eek: