Should we have a National Shooting Centre ?

target

I've been running a poll on www.target.ie asking whether we should have a National Shooting Centre dedicated to the Olympic disciplines.

I've been abroad at many ISSF World Cup competitions and most recently I was in Athens to see Derek Burnett compete. I am amazed at the level of facilities other countries have at their disposal and how integrated the ISSF shooting disciplines are. Generally, one organisation within a country administers the ISSF disciplines. We are a little out of step in Ireland where the NTSA administer the rifle and pistol side while the ICSPA look after the shotgun side. Therefore, the voice of Olympic shooting, as is the solitary vote that shooting carries in the Olympic Council of Ireland is split across two bodies.

There has been much commentary in the media about the comments made by the sporting administrators about the need to focus on the minority sports as they represent our best medal hopes for the future. I think we would all agree that shooting is about as minority a sport as you can get in Ireland but it was also one of the most successful in terms of Olympic performance.

I would expect the powers that be to start looking at this over the next few months as the Athens review takes place. I'm sure the question will be asked "What do we need to do to get medals out of shooting?"

One thought I had was for the creation of a National Shooting Centre. I was hoping that the respective bodies for shooting in Ireland would propose that a venue within Ireland could be assigned/constructed that would be big enough to cater for a full World Cup event in all disciplines. Not only would this be a great tourisim spinner but would also form a base for the devlopment of the shooting sports. No longer would we have to keep travelling abroad to train, better to keep the spending power that shooters bring with them at home!

Let's know what your thought's are ? or am I living in faireland ......

entropy

Love the faireland pun .... these are about the only guys along with the GAA who can get a venue built in Ireland.

I suppose as Donoghue and Tracey said the NGB's will have to get professional management on board before anything is taken seriously. It would be great to see the NTSA and the ICPSA coming together to form one organisation but with the ICPSA looking after DTL, sporting and everything else; it looks like the few guys who shoot the Olympic stuff really have no clout or say in things.

Funny thing is, currently the ICPSA is the representative body for all Clay Pidgeon shooting, this is a bit like having Rugby, Soccer and GAA all under the one organisation solely on the basis that they all kick a ball on a playing pitch. I'm mainly a DTL shooter and DTL is all very parochial, we don't really have any dealings with the other disciplines. So unless this National Shooting Centre also includes DTL and Sporting I doubt the ICPSA will throw its weight behind it as thats where the power lies.

Love your website, do you cover anything on DTL and Sporting ? .....

Sparks

The NTSA and the ICPSA merge? Unlikely. The NTSA is tiny compared to the ICPSA, because the ICPSA is all clay pigeon shooting, not just the ISSF disciplines, while the NTSA is only ISSF (and one or two NSRA) disciplines. You'd be more likely to get the ISSF disciplines split off into a single seperate NGB, but I doubt that the NTSA or the ICPSA would want that.

I thought the ICPSA had a national shooting range at Ashbourne for clay pigeon?

And there is a place at Abbotstown where we could build such a center; the CSID would like to see us put in for one; the problem is money. We'd need a grant to get the funds to develop it, and odds are that you wouldn't get the money unless it was for only ISSF disciplines - while the DTL lads bring home lots of medals on shotgun and the silhouette lads do the same on rifle, the fact is that the Sports Council is more looking to the prestige of Olympic medals.

Now, you could have a decent center for shooting ISSF disciplines with a rather less costly facility than (say) a new swimming pool or a new racetrack; you're talking about a building the size of a large barn or so, with air rifle and air pistol and smallbore pistol indoors; 50m rifle shooting on one side of the building and clay pigeon on the other side of the building. See the attached one-minute sketch.

Sparks

And entropy, the ISC won't even recognise the NTSA as the NGB (they recognise an umbrella body called the NRPAI instead), I can't see them funding us sufficently to hire professional staff; and we've never been able to even get enough corporate sponsorship to run the newsletter without me putting hand in pocket, so enough to pay 20k plus per year? Not much hope yet. That doesn't mean that the volunteers we have don't have professional attitudes mind...

Banana Man

Dear Sir / Madam.
Since I took up clay pigeon shooting, about 10 years ago, I have enjoyed the feeling of being amongst people who love their sport. But that is about as far as it goes. I have left "shooting grounds"...and I am being kind there...with the feeling of being ripped off. We meet to greet friends we have not seen in a while or slag friends we met at the last "shoot".

I do not know much about the different associations involved, but I do think that there has to be some form of amalgamation to make the "powers that be" aware of the potential of Irish shooters in this country.

Sparks

Banana, how do you mean "ripped off"? Do you mean that the entry fees were too high or that the facilities weren't great, or what?

As to the amalgamation... well, I'm hesitant to fully divulge details, since I suspect it would result in a threat of legal action, but suffice it to say I won't be pushing for amalgamation after my experiences the last time I seriously pushed for it. I'll just focus my efforts on improving the sports I enjoy instead.

entropy

I understand where banna man is coming from. Shotgun competitions run by the ICPSA will set you back between 35 and 50 euro depending on what you're shooting for just 100 targets. I can get shooting in the UK for half that when you take the exchange rate into account.

entropy

Sparks wrote:

I thought the ICPSA had a national shooting range at Ashbourne for clay pigeon?

Have you ever been to Ashbourne? Its nothing but an open field! Not even a covered shelter to protect you from the elements on any of the traps. It must be one of the only shooting grounds in the country that has no shelters. A cow shed would offer more facilities.

entropy

Sparks wrote:

And entropy, the ISC won't even recognise the NTSA as the NGB (they recognise an umbrella body called the NRPAI instead), I can't see them funding us sufficently to hire professional staff; and we've never been able to even get enough corporate sponsorship to run the newsletter without me putting hand in pocket, so enough to pay 20k plus per year? Not much hope yet. That doesn't mean that the volunteers we have don't have professional attitudes mind...

Understand the problem now! I thought you guys where looked after by grants and sponsorship by the sports council, same as the trench guys in the ICPSA, they seem to get a bucket load of money.

entropy

Sparks wrote:

And there is a place at Abbotstown where we could build such a center; the CSID would like to see us put in for one; the problem is money. We'd need a grant to get the funds to develop it, and odds are that you wouldn't get the money unless it was for only ISSF disciplines - while the DTL lads bring home lots of medals on shotgun and the silhouette lads do the same on rifle, the fact is that the Sports Council is more looking to the prestige of Olympic medals.

Why don't the ICPSA and the NTSA go together on a solo run on this? If the sports council/ minister will put up the dosh at least it would be a start. We could always add a few DTL layouts when it's all built .... lol

Sparks

I thought you guys where looked after by grants and sponsorship by the sports council, same as the trench guys in the ICPSA, they seem to get a bucket load of money.

Yes and no. The NTSA, NSAI, NASRC and the Pony Club make up the NRPAI. Every year, all four bodies have a meeting to put together their funding requests (they do have other meetings as well of course) and send in the grant application form to the Sports Council, who decides how much the NRPAI is funded with. The ICPSA does the same thing (except that they don't have the four constituent bodies, they just draft up the grant request on their own). The shooters in both bodies, however, are individually funded by carding grants from the Sports Council for sporting achievements - the Irish clay pigeon team of Derek Burnett, David Malone and Philip Murphy, for example, received carding grants after winning the 2002 World Championships. But that money goes to the shooters directly, not the organisation (quite correctly). The shooters get more money all told than the organisations - I'm not sure what the ICPSA gets, but the NRPAI usually gets just under 20k per year, so the NTSA gets just under 7k or so. About 90% of that then funds non-carded athletes to go to international competition (and even there we can't pay 100% of the costs, usually it's 50% or less) and to pay for coaching - the rest goes on affiliations to international bodies, admin charges (renting the room we meet in , postal costs, and so on), website costs, and so on. (No-one gets renumeration, in case anyone's wondering, every NTSA committee member is an unpaid volunteer, and most have put their hand in their own pocket to pay NTSA expenses on more than one occasion. We don't get milage, we don't get perks, and we often wind up paying NTSA operating costs - for example, I paid for every edition of the newsletter printed since I started as PRO on the committee, and advertising repays less than 50% of the costs of that - surprisingly, it's very hard to get advertising in a newsletter that goes to over a hundred shooters and clubs in all 32 counties, even from firearms dealers!).

Why don't the ICPSA and the NTSA go together on a solo run on this? If the sports council/ minister will put up the dosh at least it would be a start. We could always add a few DTL layouts when it's all built .... lol

It's an idea that's been kicked about a bit - where "a bit" means "forever" - and I'd love to see it happen; bhudda knows I've spent enough hours poring over Sports Capital Grant rules, Tourism Grant schemes, building layout doodlings, fees and membership structures from similar and larger facilities (like Strathcona in Canada for example), costings (you'd need professional staff as Range Officers for example), and so on - and the ICPSA and the NTSA have been working on developing links between the two bodies - but so far it hasn't all kicked off in earnest.

Let me ask a question - suppose this became a seriously pursued project. We'd have to raise some initial cash, that's a given. How much would you be willing to put hand in pocket for? Right now, the NTSA charges 15 euro for a year's membership - but the vast majority of people in NTSA clubs never join up, preferring to remain affiliated through the club instead. So we've become (and it's not really fair to be this way, but it's come about through years of banging our heads off of brick walls) cynical about the rapidity of some shooters to add to the pot.

And for running costs, you would have to have a membership fee for the range. (In Strathcona, you'd pay $150 per year membership and then you could use the range for free on days where there's no competition going on, for example - you supplying the targets and ammo and firearm, that is). How much would you be willing to pay?

And would it be of benefit to have a saferoom with individual gunsafes and kit lockers for people who want to shoot but don't want to keep a firearm at home? (There, you're talking about needing some security as well as the Range Officers of course).

See, all of these need real answers - which means a proper feasability study - which means money. We could apply for a grant to do the feasability study, but that's not yet been done.

There's no question that the idea of a National Target Shooting Center is a magnificent one - a single range for all ISSF shooting would be of enormous benefit to the sport and of great benefit to tourism as well since you'd attract shooters from NI and the UK; it's just a matter of getting the money to build it...

entropy

Sparks wrote:

The shooters get more money all told than the organisations

I heard tell of a move to get the trench boys banned from shooting domestic competitions because they are PROFESSIONAL and paid to shoot ! Dont know if it was just ****e talk but I wondered were all the money the ICPSA recieves from the sports council goes ... Most I ever got was about a 100 quid earlier this year for attending a few DTL internationals over the years, so either the association is holding onto it or its going to the trench boys

Sparks wrote:

We'd have to raise some initial cash, that's a given. How much would you be willing to put hand in pocket for? Right now, the NTSA charges 15 euro for a year's membership

The ICSPA charged somewhere around 100 quid for membership this year, can't remember the exact amount. The execuse is that the insurance went up blah, blah ... I wondered about the countryside alliance cover, if we dumped the cover the icpsa have in place and all signed up for the alliance cover then that would see the membership fees halved ....

Whatever the costs of a shooting centre it couldnt be any worse than the money we are forking out at the mo between membership fees and competition costs

target

entropy wrote:

Love your website, do you cover anything on DTL and Sporting ? .....

Thanks for the compliment, unfortunately I can only look after the disciplines that I'm involved in myself as it's hard enough to get news and info even when I'm at a shoot.

The only other thing I can suggest is that you try and get someone from your discipline to send in a few reports to say the Shooting Digest who would be only to happy to print them!

target

entropy wrote:

I heard tell of a move to get the trench boys banned from shooting domestic competitions because they are PROFESSIONAL and paid to shoot !

Excuse me while I have a good laugh first .... There does indeed seem to be a lot of nonsense out there with respect to the Olympic Trap discipline and its devotees. Only 4 athletes to my knowledge receive carding grants, it would certainly not be considered a wage or indeed anything remotely so, when you have to take into account that the grant is spent on travel and accomodation to World Cup events throughout the year. It costs anywhere between 2500 and 5000 euro to take part in a World cup depending on where it is held. The level of carding that is recieved would barely cover this and would not allow much left over to cover even a training trip or two. So, I would consider the carded athletes to be professional only in respect of their approach and dedication.

Indeed, I would say the level of sacrifice financially that is undertaken by those who compete at World Cup events far goes beyond what most amateur athletes of other sports would have to endure.

entropy wrote:

Most I ever got was about a 100 quid earlier this year for attending a few DTL internationals over the years, so either the association is holding onto it or its going to the trench boys

I take my hat off to you, I've been to 4 World Cups and one European Championships over the last few years and I've received absolutely nothing for my troubles .... Oh I tell a lie, I got 27 euro for attending a home international in england a few years ago .... so on the balance of it entropy, you are doing far better than me or most of the guys who shoot Olympic Trap.

You'll have to look elsewhere as to where the funding is going as it cerainly is not filtering down to us!

target

Sparks wrote:

About 90% of that then funds non-carded athletes to go to international competition (and even there we can't pay 100% of the costs, usually it's 50% or less) and to pay for coaching

I must admire the NTSA for the manner in which they disburse their grant allocation. I wish the ICPSA would take note ......

Sparks wrote:

... a proper feasability study - which means money. We could apply for a grant to do the feasability study, but that's not yet been done.

There's no question that the idea of a National Target Shooting Center is a magnificent one - a single range for all ISSF shooting would be of enormous benefit to the sport and of great benefit to tourism as well since you'd attract shooters from NI and the UK; it's just a matter of getting the money to build it...

The ICPSA undertook a survey of its membership earlier this year, haven't seen or heard anything about it since, so if the ICPSA have any plans for the future they are keeping it to themselves for the moment .... I agree with Sparks, no point talking about hypotetical ideas unless we are willing to do the ground work. This should be something that both the ICPSA and NTSA should be meeting on to get some momentum going .....

Banana Man

Yes Entropy that is exactly what I mean about being ripped off. I well recall a competition (DTL) last year where ther were over 40 squads. I was on in the afternoon so I was lucky to escape the torrential rain. I smile about it now, but at the time trying to drive through the mud to get a parking spot was hazardous because I was afraid of sliding into someone's car. The large crowd had made the conditions worse but I pitied the early shooters who had to stand in the rain trying to shoot and get nothing but wet !. I have been to shooting grounds around the country and even the worst of them have some form of shelter, and the (so called) National Shooting Grounds has nothing. Needless to say I have reservations about paying membership to the icpsa just for the privilege of getting wet.

entropy

Spot on Banana Man! The National shooting grounds really is a national disgrace ....

entropy

target wrote:

You'll have to look elsewhere as to where the funding is going as it cerainly is not filtering down to us!

There is some serious ideas out there about you guys milking all the grants! Suppose someone should put things straight, wheres the icpsa in all this? Scratch that, everyting that goes on there is behind closed doors.

gambaman

I would like to ask a question to you people.What gives Ashbourne the title of a national shooting grounds.I have a idea that Ashbourne is called so because it is the only shooting grounds that can host a D.T.L home international event in the republic of ireland.Who cares about D.T.L. .The icpsa does.This is apparent due to the fact the the icpsa shows little respect for the running and importance for issf events.I have competed at home international level for ireland at D.T.L.,A.B.T,and O.T..From these competitions as recieved from the icpsa the total of 128 euroes for eight years shooting.I have also competed at world cup events and a european championships and recieved 0 euroes.To entrophy if you think the trench men as you call us are getting funding you are seriously mistaken.I put it to you to come out and have a go at O.T. some day and leave D.T.L. behind you and see what real clay shooting is all about.

Sparks

To be honest (and I can't comment on the ICPSA because I'm not a shotgun shooter and don't know enough about the shotgun side of the house to intelligently comment), I don't mind the idea of there being multiple National Ranges. We'd have the National Range at Ashbourne for non-ISSF clay pigeon, the National Range at Midlands Rifle Club for non-ISSF rifle/pistol shooting, and a National ISSF Range in Abbotstown if we got it built, which would cater to the ISSF olympic events (all 15 of them).

Mind you, I'm not sure everyone here fully grasps the sheer scale of such an undertaking. Building a new range is a huge task...

...trying to do so with two NGBs cooperating might be a better approach, but that in itself means that you'd have twice as many special interests involved. And since a range at abbotstown would be for ISSF events, it wouldn't have as many people looking at it as non-ISSF events would. I get the impression that most of shotgun shooting in Ireland is DTL rather than OT or ODT or Skeet, so you're talking about creating a facility for a smaller group of people - you would have a lot of people asking "Why are we spending so much on shooting that I don't do?".

gambaman

I agree with you a national combined shooting centre is the way to go. The problem is that the olympic disciplines in this country are not avalible throught the country, which lead to a huge number of peole been introduced to the D.T.L level(beginners) and not moving from this level.The problem her is with the icpsa for there lack of promotion and develpoment of the olympic levels.

Sparks

Well, a single centre wouldn't be the solution to all the sport's woes obviously, but as a starting point it would have some advantages - the facility wouldn't simply be a place to hold competitions and train the national squad, but also a facility which new clubs in the greater Dublin area could use as a facility for shooting and administration until they could build their own.

foresight

I have attended at a number of matches overseas and I agree that an ISSF range would be a huge undertaking but what a dream. I think that such a facility would be capable of supporting itself once built.

The money the government has already taken off all shooters over the years in licence fees, should now be used to fund this project. We should not beg Bertie for our 'superbowl' but demand it. Our stadium would host numerous ISSF target sports unlike a famous public funded one which seems have been purpose built for one group.

It seems a bit ironic that there is no government licence on footballs and the stadium gets built with tax help. And our sport, which does have a licence fee, gets passed over.

Lobby now or loose.

entropy

gambaman wrote:

What gives Ashbourne the title of a national shooting grounds.

Havent a clue! Its a kip of a place, probably as you say because it can hold a home international, big swing! any gaa pitch in the country could host a home international if 6 trap were stuck in it, I think it takes 30 traps just to run a trench shoot, so there you go ...

gambaman wrote:

To entrophy if you think the trench men as you call us are getting funding you are seriously mistaken.I put it to you to come out and have a go at O.T. some day and leave D.T.L. behind you and see what real clay shooting is all about.

Dont shoot the messenger ... blame the icpsa not me for misinformation. If i see money coming into the association and it not being spent on anything i compete in what do you expect me to think? Talk is that with the olympics and all that stuff you guys are getting the dosh, now i dont see anyone disagreeing with me at any shoots and by god there is enough of the executive attending these shoots.

Sorry, id love to try trench but whats the point, ashbourne is the only place ive seen it and to be honest im not travelling all the way there to try it if its the only place where you can shoot it at least i can shoot dtl just about everywhere in the country. it might be real shooting to you but its inaccesible to me!

Banana Man

I suddenly get the feeling that all the messages posted here are saying the same thing....only problem is there also seems to be a "us versus them" note creeping into the mesages. The main issue here is to make the governing bodies see that their members are not happy and that things must change or we will put people in place who will make the changes

entropy

foresight wrote:

Lobby now or loose.

Who do we lobby? ok my colors are pinned to the mask, i shoot dtl but ive no ill feeling towards issf even though everyone else seems to think i do.

I would have thought the associations would be the voice of the shooters but then again ive not heard much from the icpsa or any other association for that matter with the exception of the NRPAI who have gone bonkers over the rifles and pistols thing.

In the icpsa we dont even have a newsletter and the website is a pure joke, im also a member of the cpsa and they do let you know whats going on. They have a magazine called PULL which they send out regularly and at least you can get a feel for whats going on and what they want us as members to lobby for.

The only thing ive seen the associations doing lately is kicking a lot of stink up over looking to get pistols and high calibre rifles licensed. Watch out boys, this is going to come back and kick us where it hurts! With all the ****e that appears in the shooting digest about rifles and pistols anyone whos into shooting now would look like a nutter.

Wheres the sport in all this? What grant aid are we likely to get for something that uses a 9mm semi automatic pistol? Cant see the sports council funding a 9mm pistol team ...... On the same note did anyone see the ad on the back of the shooting digest? Guys we gotta get some sense here before we loose the plot!

So after my little rant just now whats it all about, where is the leadership from the associations, we cant do the running on this from the grass roots as we would be suspended for interfering in the running of the association .... a no win situation!

entropy

Banana Man wrote:

I suddenly get the feeling that all the messages posted here are saying the same thing....only problem is there also seems to be a "us versus them" note creeping into the mesages. The main issue here is to make the governing bodies see that their members are not happy and that things must change or we will put people in place who will make the changes

The voice of reason! Hey I like my sport and im not overly impressed with the association but change is something i dont think will come easily to it. Too many vested interests and guys who like the smell of power, face it banana man if you want trench and all that stuff youd be better off with Sparks in the NTSA, keep all that olympic stuff together.

Banana Man

You are right Gambaman....the only thing I will point out is that most mebers of the ICPSA are DTL shooters, so why should they worry about minority disciplines like ABT or OT ????...which is exactly the point Sparks is making, but in a broader sense.

Banana Man

I will tell you that I have the pleasure of shooting ALL disciplines and do not (like some) restrict myself in this sport. THAT is why I agree with Sparks and certain others. Try to broaden your horizons, don't get stuck...in a trench !!

entropy

Banana Man wrote:

You are right Gambaman....the only thing I will point out is that most mebers of the ICPSA are DTL shooters, so why should they worry about minority disciplines like ABT or OT ????...which is exactly the point Sparks is making, but in a broader sense.

Yeah, the ICPSA is made up of DTL shooters so why dont you trench guys go and form your own assocation with Sparks and the NTSA guys, doubt anyone in the dtl world would miss you! Then all you olympic boys could do your own thing together!

Banana Man

I think you misunderstand me Entropy. I have shot Olympic Trap, but that does not mean I do not shoot anything else...if you read my last message I do state that. What I AM saying is that as far as the powers that be are concerned the bigger the gap between people in the association the better, the old saying applies.."divide and conquer". What should be done is for all disciplines to agree that the association is NOT providing facilities suitable to ALL. Would you agree to that ?