Should we have a National Shooting Centre ?

Pull!theother1

entropy wrote:

dont know any thing about tenders cause being just an ordinary member of the association no one bothered to tell me that we were tendering and for what?



no but "currently privately financed", what does that mean? is the association going to buy them or what?

I dont know anything about tenders either, neither being a member of ACTA or a member of the executive from that era. But I do like to think good of my fellow man unless proven otherwise..... Bit simple maybe but usualy gets me along just fine.
One of the trench layouts must be 20 years or so old, but I stand open to correction on that. The other is I believe only a few years old, but again I stand open to correction. They were built and financed by private individuals and therefore are perhaps only rightly now run seperate to the rest of the ground. Is the association going to buy them in the future? Are they for sale, and can we afford them? And if they were for sale could we afford not to buy them? What do you think?

entropy

Pull!theother1 wrote:

I dont know anything about tenders either, neither being a member of ACTA or a member of the executive from that era. But I do like to think good of my fellow man unless proven otherwise..... Bit simple maybe but usualy gets me along just fine.
One of the trench layouts must be 20 years or so old, but I stand open to correction on that. The other is I believe only a few years old, but again I stand open to correction. They were built and financed by private individuals and therefore are perhaps only rightly now run seperate to the rest of the ground. Is the association going to buy them in the future? Are they for sale, and can we afford them? And if they were for sale could we afford not to buy them? What do you think?

looks like we both have alot in common after all! glad to see you were in the dark too, dont care much about trench layouts let the trench boys deal with that if there are any on here, but i agree with you i would like to think the best of my fellow man but i have been shafted enugh to know its not a two way feeling most of the time. still would love to know what the story is with the stuff looper brought up but guess that as we seem to be the only two having this chat that no one else cares. we can bang heads here all night but doubt anyone will change anything, off on a few weeks holidays tomorrow so see you all when i get back!

oldhand

Dear sporting friends. I have been reading the comments boards for the past week or so since i was asked by a executive member if i knew anything about it.It seems to me that there is more anger out there than any one knew.I want to give to the readership my views.I have been a member of the icpsa for over 25 yeas now.I have sat on committee's from club level,provencial level all the way to executive level for the best part of 12 years.I am now retired from the committee activities a couple of years for i felt i had done my stint for shooting.In reading the comments and questions asked by the people it seems that nothing has changed from my time been at the top.I remember when the icpsa had a chance to relocate to the curragh,but this was declined at the time.Just when i was retiring there was a lot of talk about a second O.T layout been planned for ashbourne.Ashbourne olympic trench club(as stated on the icpsa web site)is a separate club to acta.The trench club pays a rent allowance (500 punts in my time)for the use of the grounds.The trench club is now run by the chairman of the icpsa.Is this in breach of the icpsa's constitution?.....
The privatley owned traps in the trench were supplied by the icpsa's chairman promatic distribution of traps.If these are the traps that people are talking about,is there any truth that a bill for 127000euros was submitted?...
If this is the case is the chairman awaiting a grant from the sports council on my recent visit to ashbourne i saw the construction of wheelchair access to the O.T layout.This brings to mind one question.Can any private club get a grant for 100,000's of euro's to construct O.T layouts.The new O.T layout was constructed just in time to host the O.T home international.Did we need a second O.T layout in ashbourne when we already had two shooting grounds in the icpsa that were capable of running the event.The present chairman fought tooth and nail for the construction of the layout in ashbourne.My last comment is that the construction of the O.T in ashbourne had commenced a few months before the tender's were sent out.Nice pay day if you get it.

Pull!theother1

oldhand wrote:

I have been a member of the icpsa for over 25 yeas now.I have sat on committee's from club level,provencial level all the way to executive level for the best part of 12 years.I am now retired from the committee activities a couple of years for i felt i had done my stint for shooting.In reading the comments and questions asked by the people it seems that nothing has changed from my time been at the top.I remember when the icpsa had a chance to relocate to the curragh,but this was declined at the time.

I defer to your experience and take what you say as fact. How advanced was the planned move to the Curragh, and when was this?

Just when i was retiring there was a lot of talk about a second O.T layout been planned for ashbourne.Ashbourne olympic trench club(as stated on the icpsa web site)is a separate club to acta.The trench club pays a rent allowance (500 punts in my time)for the use of the grounds.The trench club is now run by the chairman of the icpsa.Is this in breach of the icpsa's constitution?.....

Good question. Put a name to it and I will happily run with it. However at risk of repeating myself I would be foolish to present every gripe raised, at executive level, at the risk of falsly accusing someone without at least knowing who makes the allegation or raises the query.

The privatley owned traps in the trench were supplied by the icpsa's chairman promatic distribution of traps.If these are the traps that people are talking about,is there any truth that a bill for 127000euros was submitted?...

Having asked around, no sign of a bill. Yet? Or do you know something being hidden from the rest of us?

If this is the case is the chairman awaiting a grant from the sports council on my recent visit to ashbourne i saw the construction of wheelchair access to the O.T layout.This brings to mind one question.Can any private club get a grant for 100,000's of euro's to construct O.T layouts.

If you take a look at the fantastic work done and being done at Mulroy and Lakelands to name but some, with state grant funding having played a part, I can only presume that funding may be applied for by anyone, but the granting may be a different matter. And is it so wrong to provide wheelchair access, if what you say is correct? Surely we should be trying to open doors not close them.

The new O.T layout was constructed just in time to host the O.T home international.Did we need a second O.T layout in ashbourne when we already had two shooting grounds in the icpsa that were capable of running the event.

I do not know, did we? On one hand the ICPSA is being accused of not doing enough and then on the other the opening of more facilities, for whatever reason, is being castigated. As Ashbourne, for better or worse, is the National Shooting Grounds, if it is capable of holding an International event then it should I suppose do so. Why are some people so hard on ISSF shooters and their facilities? I do not shoot trench but I would not hinder its development in any way either.

The present chairman fought tooth and nail for the construction of the layout in ashbourne.My last comment is that the construction of the O.T in ashbourne had commenced a few months before the tender's were sent out.Nice pay day if you get it.

Again I defer to your knowledge of the past. But if you knew of any wrong doing, surely you were then, and are now, obligated to do something or else you are equally guilty if something was amiss. If you were not willing to make a stand then and are not now willing to openly state what you allege to be wrong now, in a forum which is capable of achieving results and not just here where we all get a chance to let off steam, then I can understand why you were retired. If I as a current member of the executive now have to face something coming down the line (pardon the pun) which is in any way askew, inherited from those who went before, and which may be damaging to the association, pardon me if I do not thank those concerned for the legacy. What on earth were you doing back then, if what you say is true?

Sparks

Okay, this is something I've been reluctant to stick my head into, but the last comment by oldhand is a bit over the line. The idea with this forum was to improve communications between shooters, and between shooting associations and their members (initially I was thinking of the NTSA, I'll admit, but it seems to be an endemic problem and thus the forum helps more than I initially thought it could). What I didn't envisage was it becoming a place to anonymously charge people with corporate fraud without any evidence being cited!

Oldhand, Pull is right - if you have evidence that this happened, you're bound to write it up and submit it to the ICPSA. Now if you do that, then posting it here would be fine, it acts as rumour control (another intended purpose to the board). But if you're not willing to do that, then it serves no constructive purpose at all.

Now I'm not trying to say that associations cannot be criticised - I personally feel that criticism is healthy for an association because if your ideas are sound, then criticism just gives an opportunity to explain them better, and if they're not sound, criticism exposes a flaw before it gets the association into serious trouble - but there is a line between criticism and mud-slinging, and I think we've wandered over that line here. Pull has given a response to it, so I won't edit it out - but let's wander back across the line, please?

Pull!theother1

Thank you for the presentation assistance. Will get the hang of this eventualy, if I stay involved long enough.

oldhand

As i read the last comments i must agree with sparks.You are right that line was overstepped.On that note i am sorry for the last comment.It is stricking to read the comments and feelings showen for the comment do we need a national shooting centre.Personally i feel not and i agree with pulltheother1, we already have a national shooting grounds.The thing that really concerns me is not the icpsa,but the fact that in the comming years shooting is going to become very expencive.Shooting is going to be subject to the pollution laws as is all industries.Could this close more shooting grounds and put shooting as a sport under serious presure.Maybe these are the topics we should be debating.Once again i am sorry for overstepping the line.As a retired committee member i hope pulltheother1 will continue to offer there 1p's worth,and continue to offer the excellent and indept replies.On that note i will retire from the board.

Looper1

The issue at hand here is the question of whether we need a national shooting centre. Sorry to disappoint those in the ICPSA world but I do believe shooting involves more than just a shotgun. As Sparks quite rightly pointed out, the international aspect of shooting is the context in which this discussion is based.

By looking at the accounts of the ICPSA I noticed a substantial input from the Irish Sports Council in respect of grant aid, although I was unable to ascertain in what manner the grant aid was dispersed. So forgive me if I make an assumption and suggest that perhaps the Irish Sports Council would prefer it to be spent in enhancing the international achievements of the ICPSA.

Let us examine that statement in context. The stated aim of the Irish Sports Council is quote: “to assist in the building of strong and dynamic governing bodies. Through funding and other supports the Council will strengthen the NGBs so that they can deliver greater participation in sport, raise the standards of performance and achieve excellence at international level.”

So I would assume it reasonable to infer from this that one of the aims of the ISC would be to promote and develop sport on the international stage. I think we only have to look at the post games analysis of Athens to see the emphasis which the Olympic Council of Ireland and The Irish Sports Council placed on performance and the medal tally.

Now let us examine international shooting from an Irish context. I believe we have various rifle and pistol disciplines some of which are Olympic disciplines and some of which are not. The non-Olympic events appear to be even more marginalised than their Olympic cousins. I can only recall coverage of Derek Burnett in the media in respect of sporting achievement and I believe he is from the Olympic side of the sport?

I have read comment here to the effect that the National Shooting Grounds in Ashbourne cater quite well to the non-Olympic shotgun events and I believe there is a rifle range in the midlands area which also caters exceptionally well to the non-Olympic rifle sports. So it would appear that the Olympic shooting sports are the issue here with respect to international facilities.

Can I ask what facilities exist for the Olympic shooting events in Ireland and do they meet international standards?

Pull!theother1

The ISSF clay shooting elements are OT, ISU Skeet and Double Trap.

To my knowledge, Balheary is ISU skeet proficient and perhaps Mulroy in Donegal.

OT layouts are to be found in Ashbourne, Logues Hill, Mid Ulster, Courtlough and are in the process of being built in Lakelands.

I know that Mid Ulster hold DT shoots and as the OT layout is standard in all grounds I presume that the other such grounds could do the same.

Are they of International Standard? The targets most certainly are as they must meet laid down specifications. The grounds? We could only dream of having a Bisley or Southern Counties etc. as whether we like it or not the money just is not there on that level.

The quest is for a national facility to cater for all shooting, is it not? Will it happen? I would not like to have my existance dependent on a positive outcome........ But we live in hope.

Sparks

Looper1 wrote:

Now let us examine international shooting from an Irish context. I believe we have various rifle and pistol disciplines some of which are Olympic disciplines and some of which are not. The non-Olympic events appear to be even more marginalised than their Olympic cousins. I can only recall coverage of Derek Burnett in the media in respect of sporting achievement and I believe he is from the Olympic side of the sport?

Derek's in olympic trapshooting (Olympic trench) and has gotten the most media coverage, but there are others who are equally deserving of coverage - David Malone (Ireland's first World Cup gold medallist) and Philip Murphy spring first to mind from their having been the other two in the Irish Team when they won the World Championships team gold medal in Lathi two years ago. On the Rifle side (which I know a bit more about ), we have people like Rhona Barry (Atlanta Olympics, Air Rifle), Alan Lewis (Sydney Olympics, 50m Rifle), Gary Duff (Atlanta Olympics, 50m Rifle, currently retired from shooting - hopefully temporarily), Dr. Nicola Murphy (Air Rifle, has won medals internationally for us), Richard Stapleton Jr (Air Rifle Junior until recently), Liam Spillane (Air Rifle Junior, currently one of our best shots), and too many others to mention by name. There are notable shooters from the non-Olympic side of Rifle shooting as well, such as Nick Flood in silhouette. I wouldn't say the non-Olympic rifle shooters are more marginalised - they get the same amount of money as the Olympic rifle shooters and have their own shooting associations (the NSAI for silhouette and the NASRC for sporter rifle and the Pony Club for tetrathlon), but the facilities they all have are well below par.

Can I ask what facilities exist for the Olympic shooting events in Ireland and do they meet international standards?

From the rifle side of the house, the word "dismal" appears best suited.

There is a wonderful smallbore facility in Comber Rifle Club, an excellent all-round facility in East Antrim Rifle Club, and some other good facilities in N.Ireland; in the Republic, we have an excellent, if small (six firing points) facility in Wilkinstown (just north of Navan) with the ability (given a lot of effort) to set up a temporary 14-point firing range in the local community hall. There are college clubs in TCD (2/3 firing points for smallbore/air rifle) and UCD (14 firing points for air rifle only), there's a training facility on the western end of the Sally Gap (the Dublin Rifle Club) though it is very basic, and there's a facility in Rathdrum for smallbore rifle indoors, which can be used as training for the olympic 50m discipline. But that's it. Fassaroe's range was closed over a year ago and they're still sorting out the new range. There's talk of a new range in Kells, and there are plans for a magnificent range in Rathdrum, but no sods turned anywhere on those yet.

Facilities are perhaps our most dire need in the rifle side of the house right now, though it's a close tie between the need for facilities and the need to have pistols secured for licencing in the Republic (pistol shooting makes up the last third of the shooting events in the Bejing Olympics - shotgun gets 5 events, rifle gets 5 and pistols gets 5). Pistols would also mean a cheaper entrypoint to the olympic sport, and their facilities can be indoor which has advantages.

Sparks

Pull!theother1 wrote:

The quest is for a national facility to cater for all shooting, is it not?

I dunno Pull. If we had one facility that catered for all shooting from silhouette and sporter through 100yd, 50m, 50m 3P, 25m, 25yd, 10m, OT, DTL, Skeet... well, it'd be a magnificent facility allright... but it'd also be just one facility. I'd much rather see more than one. I mean, Croke Park is a world-class stadium, but if it was the only stadium the GAA had, the GAA would be in severe trouble!

I'd like to see at least three "National Ranges" - one for non-olympic rifle shooting, one for non-olympic shotgun shooting and one for all the olympic disciplines from all sides of the house. (And a fourth for non-olympic pistol shooting, but I think the Midlands is trying to accomodate that as well).
But that's my personal idea - I don't think anyone's made any moves towards it yet.

benhurt1

One of these would be nice!
Dunno if it would work for clays though.
Prices start at a million........ http://www.firearmsranges.com/firearms.htm
Or if you bought one of these you wouldnt need a range!
http://www.scatt.com/eng/default.htm

Sparks

SCATTs are great trainers Ben (I've used one myself for quite a while now, and frankly I think any club that's serious about having competitive shooters needs to have a SCATT or a Rika or a Sam or one of these electronic trainers), but they're not a substitute for actual live-firing because (especially with smallbore rifles) there's random variation in where your round lands even without wind and with perfect shooting technique. This is generally caused by variations in the manufacturing that are too small to correct but large enough to make a difference. Variations in lead density, for example, or in how the primer burns, or what have you. It's not much, but it can be enough to make the difference between a medal and not making the finals. Hence batch testing and trying to get a sub-15mm ammo batch for competition...