Why do people hate Bi-Sexuals.

Talliesin

Bloody monosexuals...

Dónall

Hello Boston,
I'm not quite sure where you're coming from here tonewise as I don't pop into boards much, so don't really know the people here . But if you're genuinely interested I'll try to answer your question. I suppose "discovered" may be too dramatic a term, but it basically means that, yes, at 22 I had sexual relations with a woman for the first time and found it much more fulfilling and complete than sexual relations with men. I'm wary of peddling the idea of homosexuality as a phase or something you move on from and so on, as this can so often be a weapon of conservative homophobes. My reasons for exploring homosexuality were probably, in retrospect, not the best; feelings of inadequacy, low self-esteem, constant rejection from woman at the time. On the gay scene I found the opppsite of rejection and needed and appreciated this at the time. Although it didn't satsify me erotically I feel it was a hugely enriching and mind-expanding experience on balance, for which I'm grateful. The reason why it's still a raw issue with me is that I was away from Ireland for 13 years so when I returned last year the gay issue was very present in the minds of alot of people I had't seen since then, so it's something I've had to discuss again for the first time in years. I've had to listen to the odd snide remark, like when someone I knew back then sees me with my girlfriend and spits something along the lines of "what are you doing with a woman?", which is infuriating. Anyway I'm just in from the pub, and I'm a bit pissed and tired and in a bad mood - hence the ramble....

Boston

I was tired and didn't really express what I was trying too say to well. I am genuinely interested in what you're experience was, as It maybe me afew years down the road. I'm very curious as to what it would be like with a woman, but at the same time women just seem not to be worth the hassle. I mean with guys it's so much easier because their a tendency to think the same way about things.Dublin seems a city a wash with bleach blond bints in bars willing to score any half decent man that will buy them a drink. The nice one's, the rare nice ones, you don't want to do anything with for fear of ;

• A) hurting them, cause you know there's always some little voice in the back of your head saying you might be really just be gay, and you're only with them cause it's socially expected. The social pressure to conform is even stronger when your not in the screaming queen category of MSM.

• B)Fear of rejection. If a girl doesn't like you cause you're an arrogant ass, or cause you're not a hunk, then that's one thing, if she rejects you because of something, which you can't change and which you don't see as a problem then that's truly hurt full, for what ever reason it seems that bit more personal.

Then there's the whole, suppose I do it and I like it more, problem. Especially if your with someone you love. Is it possible to stay with them, even though you know chances are you would be getting more sexually out of a woman? How could you go back to the way things where. Then again it might just be a case of the grass is always greener over there, and once you tried it you realise thats it's not what you imagined. My first and last trip into heterosexuality ended as quickly as it had begun, in a burning ball of flames, and left we quite dazed and confused at the time. The conclusion I came to was that it was better to be with someone, both sexually and emotionally, that you liked, rather then trying to comform to gender roles of what a man should be.

I mean, if your going to be with someone, be with them for who they are, not what gender they are. I tried something with someone who was crazy about me, but it wasn't two way. I did it simply because I thought that was what I was supposed to do, the end result was allot of pain. At the time I felt it wasn't the right, I felt physically sick holding her, and kissing her. I put this down to pretending to be something I wasn't, now I realise it was more about who she was and who I am.

So I sat and pondered for a while, and wonder if I was really Bi at all, or maybe just someone who's has little to no sexual inhabitations. While my experience is somewhat limited, there's little I can think of that I would object to trying out at least once. So where is the lines the problem. Someone once said to me, that guys who are truly comfortable with being straight are the ones that wouldn't mind giving the other side of things a go, but generally don't because their preference wouldn't be that. It's like, you've nothing against eating plain cookies, probably nice enough, you just preferto eat double chocolate chip ones. So there in lies the problem, how can you have a preference unless you tasted both types. How can someone be truly sure unless at some stage they have.

Sorry for the rambling nature of this post.
Joe.

everythinglive

i don't hate bi-sexuals. i know a few and they don't bother me at all

Hmm_Messiah

I want to say something here, but I am not sure what. I've read through most of the thread and will leave out comment on what seems to be agreat portion where two people are talking two different languages to each other and not even managing to manage the least level of respect for peopel as unique and individual.


The bi thing often bothered me. The dislike wondered about in the first thread. I have been in relationships and friendships where my sexuality seemed to threaten people and arouse this dislike. My understanding is my own, my experience, but seems to be some level way through extremes listed here. Girlfriends felt threatened in some way because they understand the strength of hormones! sexual attraction and arousal! They worried if being attracted to men I cold be completely fulfilled sexually with them.

The truth is yes and no. Sexual r/ships with peopel I have loved have always been complete and fulfilling no matter which gender. How if a " going out with" phase I had cheat on my partner with men. This WAS not because I was promiscious, or just too sexed up, or anything else. IT was because, due to circumstance many may empathisewith, I had no opportunities to experience then reflect on physicality with men, so when the opportunity arose I very guiltily took it, having a need i find totallt natural, but inappropriate in how I met my own needs versus my responsibility to my partner. I immediatelt told them anyways (am hung up on honesty) some have understood. One ex girlfriend still says my relationship with a man destroyed our friendship!! I find this idea peculair unless she has a dislike for gay people , and it was ME whowas affecting her (the "new" me) The reality I guess though might be she had expressed her love for me (as in the next stage would be commitment/marriage) andI replied that was perhaps a bad idea, followed some weeks later by her understanding more about the "label" that was going to be stuck on me.


Guys in my experience of those who care, gay guys have not liked bi men because they feel they will always be less important, get the convenient times etc. This much can be true. They also seem to think bisexuality is some how equal to indesiciveness or cowardice, or only one foot out of the closet. Regarding the above I am talking about my own experience and what I understood or often was told.

As a bi man myself I find it so strange that some of my gay friends find it strange I would term myself that. Maybe because they know me in a time when I've been exclusively with men. But this is unfair, as it lessens other relationships, and it is almost an insult (or saddenign that a friend would not know me better), insulting in that they decide I don't know who or what I am, insulting in the suggestion that being bisexual or claiming it makes me deviant rather that str8 or gay which is : well str8 or gay seems to be seen as genetic, and bisexuality a choice !!

I don't know what makes people what they are, I can acept that any person has a milliion experiences as they grow toadulthood and who can say how they affect th e individual or how one person will try absorb conflicting ideas/feelings/etc.

Some friends understood me as being physically attractive to men but emotionally to women. This was true, cute guy gives me a h**d on quicker than pretty girl. Girls I grow close to I felt so much for, planned so much with, guys were just sex. But thats because that is what they were at that time ; experiements, experiencing things to see the truth and strength of my feelings, preferences, "inclinations".

Then at 30ish I met a man and fell in love. It was an extra odinarily beautiful thing to feel every thing, affection, attraction, love, care, horniness all for the one person. It had happednonce with a girl long ago. The fact that this guy made me feel the SAME as I did then was such a surprise.

Not sure I said what I wanted to say.

These LGBH labels are difficult words, becasue peopel use them in different ways
they can be born with, but equally learned, they can be urgent or left unfulfilled, can be no choice or a preference, a lifestylt or some primitive brain response.
Whatever they are they describe people, and maybe its respect for personhood, for the uniqueness of each individual that should be emphasised.


Oh I also understand the reason people express a preference to be cheated on with someone of the same sex (when asked) is because they see a difference. Being cheatedon is a rejection of your love. I also makes you feel rejected as a person, that some one more beautiful, funnier, more clever was found. Thats a painful feeling, your love rejected or feeling you are less.
When you and in that the new person is the opposite sex some peopel feel as if thats what was found lacking, their sexuality, the very body they occupy.Its somethign akin to why rape is so much more a trumatic event that other forms of assault.


And really really lastly, I know some people asked why do peopel think bi peopela re more likely to cheat, less able to be faithful. This might be the wrong thing to say here, but I have felt that personally, that maybe with a woman now I would be les ale to be faithful to her. Why? because a whole chunk of who i am is un satisfied. My attractiont o other women would be controlled by my greater affection /love, and even my interest in other men (otherwise you just realsie things have changed, and move on to a new person)
But my mind at some basic level has a response to men, and mens bits etc, I often wondered would they continue no matter how fulfilling my rship with a grl was, in that they were HOMOsexual not hetero. So if as a bi guy i think it can't be surprised that others would do .

Others might understand this as some lack of self conrol etc etc et c but if u understand sexuality as a part of ur makeup just like say religious beliefs, then you could maybe understand how a fundemantelist catholic might not be able to stay in rship with an atheist no matter how real the feelings etc

c3van5

Hi All,

ive actually been on the recieving end of an argument like this before - when i came out i thought it would be much easier to tell people i was bisexual - that way they could get used to the fact that i liked men and then i would say that i preferred men in a few months or whatever, but then i found that people got really argumentative with me - women would not trust me the way they would a camper man, and men would not trust me for fear that i would jump them (not that i would - i know some right gits)
bisexual men have a harder way of life than both straight and gay men -> its harder for them to gel with either sex - whereas bisexual women are thought on as bubbly and fun and it is widely acceptable.

Im not making much sense am i?

claire h

c3van5 wrote:

Hi All,

ive actually been on the recieving end of an argument like this before - when i came out i thought it would be much easier to tell people i was bisexual - that way they could get used to the fact that i liked men and then i would say that i preferred men in a few months or whatever, but then i found that people got really argumentative with me - women would not trust me the way they would a camper man, and men would not trust me for fear that i would jump them (not that i would - i know some right gits)
bisexual men have a harder way of life than both straight and gay men -> its harder for them to gel with either sex - whereas bisexual women are thought on as bubbly and fun and it is widely acceptable.

Im not making much sense am i?

Nah, you are making sense. Though I would like to add that bisexual women are thought of as those things as long as they're only kissing girls for fun and are perceived to be 'really' straight deep down and could only ever have a relationship with a guy. It's acceptance but what's being accepted isn't *real* bisexuality. Still, there isn't an equivalent for guys, and I think guys are more likely to identify as gay or straight and avoid the tricky label of bisexual, whereas women won't avoid it as much.

Boston

I think guys are more likely to identify as gay or straight and avoid the tricky label of bisexual, whereas women won't avoid it as much

What option do you have when some one says your gay, and you know your not. I mean in conversations or whatever, it's easier for them to think of you as gay, unless you want to be making a contant issue out of it, and constantly explaining that no, you like both sexes, and getting into the whole I'm 48% gay 67% of the time, but only on tuesdays wednesdays and thursdays, because in the end thats what they want, some concrete and tangable, which often you can't provide, I know I can't. Doing that runs the risk of shoving your sexuality into someone else face.

So you let them think whatever is easiest for them to think of you as and you don't get stressed. It took along time for people to come around to the notion I was going out with a guy, and once they have I'm sure I'm forever firmly rooted in their minds as gay, hope people don't get too freakie if/when I go out with a girl.

qwertyphobia

People will see what they want to see. It's an amazing ablity we have for not facing up to reality even when it's right in your face.

I have been openly bisexual since around 1992 (probably one of the most openly bi people) yet for years i had gay guys I knew thinking of me as gay and other people thinking i was straight when I was in a longterm relationship with a women. It doesn't seam to matter what you do or say some people only seam to have two boxs in their head so they are going to try and fit you into one of them no matter what.

The only thing you can do is be clear yourself as to how you identify. It's not worth getting into endless debate with the same person about your sexuality. There is just something about bisexuality that is too challenging for them on some personal level and untill that is resolved they probably can't fully except bisexuality as a valid sexual identity

RussianManiac

Boston wrote:

I was talking to a friend about life and love and all that usual crap, when for what ever reason the conversation went towards her bi-sexuality. Now she hadn’t told me before, and I nearly didn’t even notice she had said it, until she started going into detail. After much discuss we came to the conclusion that most people don’t mind you being Gay, they don’t mind you being straight either, but if you’re Bi people really don’t like you. People seem to have a major problem with other people they believe to be gay, going out with a member of the opposite sex. As if it’s evil.

Is it because people like to pigeonhole other people into specific well defined categories and if you deviate from they perceived preconceptions of the world and how things work, then you’re in some way a destructive and negative influence.

Is it because the things they use to define there sexuality as being specifically in one direction, (100% gay or 100% straight) are the very same things Bi-Sexuals use to define their sexuality in both directions? And People don’t like this because it challenges their own personal life choice.

Is it because people perceive it as being deceitful and greedy. That you want the best of both worlds but you’re unwilling to commit to a single path, so you’re leading your partner on, and pretending to be something you’re not?

Just thinking about it recently and these are my thought on it, care to discus.

Okay so its not my opinion but most peoples dont like Bisexuals mainly because they see it as they just want to have fun with a member of same sex and not be serious about relationship.I know this from experience even though Im not Bi or Straight.Some people are just close minded.People need to think outside the box and not be giving into stereotypes!!

Talliesin

I am the only bi in this village.

cat_rant

hi all okay this is my two cents
im a young bi-sexual female who until last year hadn't kissed a woman in the previous 8 years. i never did the whole girlies teanage snogg thing i was very carefull not to go there cos i knew i would be the one that would be hurt.

my gripe is when out with lesbian friends they always refer to me as straight when talking to other lesbians they say it is because

a) it will save me from bieng hasselled for being bi (which in truth it has happened to me before. I had a few lesbian aquaintances go ballistic when being chatted up by a guy i didn't give him the brush off....incidentally i dated the guy for a few months....what a disappointment he was but anyway.)

b) because Im not much of a flirt so when I"m in gay bars people think Im straight and when I'm in straight bars...you get the idea

the last thing i want to say and this one is a raw point for me

when two of my male co-workers were given "the no thanking im happily single id rather not go on a date with you but thanks anyway" speach they assumed that since i wasnt attracted to either of them i "must be a lemon" and tried to out me in the office in front of all the other staff. wait it gets better they had a competition going between them to see which could get me to admit to being a lesbian first.

their comments were so vulgar and derogitory and where made as remarks to me or about me that it was complete sexual harrasment.

this resulted in me having to change office and take a diffrent job in another part of the building and do my best to get on with things. by the way this was only three weeks ago

If i had of openly said I was Bi the torment would never have ended

sorry for blabbing on

cat

elivsvonchiaing

catastrophy wrote:

hi all okay this is my two cents
im a young bi-sexual female who until last year hadn't kissed a woman in the previous 8 years. i never did the whole girlies teanage snogg thing i was very carefull not to go there cos i knew i would be the one that would be hurt.

my gripe is when out with lesbian friends they always refer to me as straight when talking to other lesbians they say it is because

a) it will save me from bieng hasselled for being bi (which in truth it has happened to me before. I had a few lesbian aquaintances go ballistic when being chatted up by a guy i didn't give him the brush off....incidentally i dated the guy for a few months....what a disappointment he was but anyway.)

b) because Im not much of a flirt so when I"m in gay bars people think Im straight and when I'm in straight bars...you get the idea

the last thing i want to say and this one is a raw point for me

when two of my male co-workers were given "the no thanking im happily single id rather not go on a date with you but thanks anyway" speach they assumed that since i wasnt attracted to either of them i "must be a lemon" and tried to out me in the office in front of all the other staff. wait it gets better they had a competition going between them to see which could get me to admit to being a lesbian first.

their comments were so vulgar and derogitory and where made as remarks to me or about me that it was complete sexual harrasment.

this resulted in me having to change office and take a diffrent job in another part of the building and do my best to get on with things. by the way this was only three weeks ago

If i had of openly said I was Bi the torment would never have ended

sorry for blabbing on

cat

My theory on this is society is too slow to evolve... 100 years ago homosexuality, was completely in the closet. Society now accepts it, but playing with both teams has the societal programming taboo of faithfulness?
I believe we were once polygamous and didn't have any societal bullsh!t - religion and language changed all this.

Irish society was pretty much: you are happily married - widowed- you're a loner completly single - or sexual deviant (gay or partner is much older).

It has evolved to: you are happily married - seperated, divorced, widowed - have never been married and have x kids, am gay have partner - we are an item.

Where Irish society needs to move to is I'm bisexual is ok... my partner is 16 years older than me - that's why she looks a bit older than me, but her last partner was a man - she has 3 kids - I love all of them - but hate her last girlfriend - i've no problem with that! In my experience it is not there yet.

Bisexuals are still viewed by Irish society in general as sexual deviants. I'm not gay - I just like older women. I've seen friends come out and the pain it caused. Not as much as admitting your girlfriend was 15 when you were born! This seems in my world to be bigger taboo.

I have had girlfriends 15 years older than me and had friends make comments that had no intent to offend but did.

I've never officially came out that I like older women. I reckon only six of my friends could testify that I do!

fozzle

People just can't seem to accept things they can't classify and put into a little neat box.I told friends I was gay when I was in college, assuming that they would realise that I meant bi since I hadn't exactly been avoiding men. But when about three months later I started going out with a guy they asked my if I was straight again, they can't seem to get their heads around the fact that I wasn't just experimenting, that I really am attracted to both sexes. It was weird because they didn't seem worried when they thought I was lesbian that I might try it on with them, since I know they're straight, yet once I told them that I'm bi some of them got much more uncomfortable.

Until hollywood and tv and girls looking for male attention stop pushing the idea that bi means promiscuous, sex-mad, orgy loving and attention seeking, society in general is not going to accept bisexuals, we'll never be trusted completely. And it is on both sides, I lived near the gay area in Toronto for a while, and there were visible animosities between gay and lesbian, and everyone and bisexuals, like we're just fence sitters who are too afraid to choose and stick with it.

Sorry if I've stopped making sense, or re-itterated points I've made before, this just gets me really p1ssed off.

Boston

fozzle wrote:

People just can't seem to accept things they can't classify and put into a little neat box.I told friends I was gay when I was in college, assuming that they would realise that I meant bi since I hadn't exactly been avoiding men. But when about three months later I started going out with a guy they asked my if I was straight again, they can't seem to get their heads around the fact that I wasn't just experimenting, that I really am attracted to both sexes. It was weird because they didn't seem worried when they thought I was lesbian that I might try it on with them, since I know they're straight, yet once I told them that I'm bi some of them got much more uncomfortable.

Until hollywood and tv and girls looking for male attention stop pushing the idea that bi means promiscuous, sex-mad, orgy loving and attention seeking, society in general is not going to accept bisexuals, we'll never be trusted completely. And it is on both sides, I lived near the gay area in Toronto for a while, and there were visible animosities between gay and lesbian, and everyone and bisexuals, like we're just fence sitters who are too afraid to choose and stick with it.

Sorry if I've stopped making sense, or re-itterated points I've made before, this just gets me really p1ssed off.

No makes perfect sense. As a lesbian, you would only be interested in very stable relationships, fiddlity, Love, blah blah blah. And of course your type would be buch lesbian feminist types, that wear jack boots and combats and tattoo "I hate men" into their arm. So of course you wouldn't be attracted to them, their not like that. However as we all know a bi-sexual will fuk anything that moves, so all of a sudden you want to **** them. Basically they think of you as a guy when it comes to letting you in.

As for the lesbian/gay thing. Yep thats pretty feicing true. I'd go as far to say allot of gay men seem very afraid of lesbian women, for what ever reason, seems odd to moi.

fozzle

Boston wrote:

No makes perfect sense. As a lesbian, you would only be interested in very stable relationships, fiddlity, Love, blah blah blah. And of course your type would be buch lesbian feminist types, that wear jack boots and combats and tattoo "I hate men" into their arm. So of course you wouldn't be attracted to them, their not like that. However as we all know a bi-sexual will fuk anything that moves, so all of a sudden you want to **** them. Basically they think of you as a guy when it comes to letting you in.

As for the lesbian/gay thing. Yep thats pretty feicing true. I'd go as far to say allot of gay men seem very afraid of lesbian women, for what ever reason, seems odd to moi.

That's it exactly Boston, people want things to be black or white, and they see Bisexuality as being a kind of dirty grey.


I think a certain amount of the hostility between some gay men and lesbian women comes from the fact that quite a number of them can be agressively gay when they come out, like after pretending to be what they're not for so many years, they feel the need to shove their "real" self into people's face's, which often means following stereotypes. I'm pretty sure I did a certain amount of it myself at first.

memphis

Hi Fozzle,

I had no idea that you were gay or at least gay inclined. I've been confused myself for some years. I've played around in the gay corner, and then gone back to the straight scene only to find myself snog a bloke some months later. The point I'm making is because of societies behaviour and attitudes to gays and lesbians, they can't seem to get there head around the fact that people may go boths ways and are and can be attracted to both sexes. But society find Bisexuality as weird, abnormal, or whatever word you wanna use.

This pi$$es me off only too often. I'm not actually out, but I am open about my sexuality with close friends, and that, however I couldn't bare to tell my family and relatives. Why? Because, in the eyes of society I don't fit into the, as Fozzle puts it, "the Black or White" category, I'm more in the grey area.

Hopes this makes sense, I'm a bit confused by reading through it myself.

Talliesin

memphis wrote:

But society find Bisexuality as weird...

In fairness, I have to admit that I find gays and straights a bit weird.
But it's one thing for them to seem weird from my perspective, quite another to make assumptions about their behaviour or mental states.

elivsvonchiaing

Talliesin wrote:

In fairness, I have to admit that I find gays and straights a bit weird.
But it's one thing for them to seem weird from my perspective, quite another to make assumptions about their behaviour or mental states.

I have realised before that most of my posts in this forum are greeted with a polite resentment, I really would appreciate vociferous comment if that is how people really feel...

As I've said already I'm a sexual devient - I'm straight into older women. The point being - I've chosen to describe myself in this way because society makes me feel this way about myself. I was born and lived in Dublin most of my life, I apologise to anyone who is gay/bi from a small town and thinks this is just an insulting post - I at least know the tip of the iceberg of what went on in small towns if you weren't straight in 70's 80's. There was some of this sh!t in Dublin too - I witnessed it.

You will no doubt find me as a straight - more than wierd Talliesin, but in my experience there are elements of society that have no tolerance for what is labelled "devient". There is a big difference between this and thinking of someone as wierd. It is how you make them feel about themselves

That said I didn't have Gardaí Siochanna, kick the sh!t out of me when I was 17 - but I know some of those who did! Fact!

Hmm_Messiah

christ for people who to some degree shared/share a common fight against prejudice there are sure some judgemental people in the LGB community

Also as in so many discussion about sexual "identity", the sexual element gets most attention, with only afew reference to the idea of who who fall in love with as been defining, As a wiccan I was called polyamorous; in its self its a difficult concept, but if anythign was nearer to the corry anxiety of str8 people than bisexuality. It suggest you can love more than one person, when most people hope that some one will love us entirely , a love that is beyond their care for any other.

Wiccans also say "Do as you will, harming none"

Not such a bad idea.

PS. Evil___________ having a preference (for older women) is not deviant. Every individual has their own preference to match; it becomes devient only when that preference is outside of what is considered cultural ok, or more if said deviant preference is acted on, harming others.

Talliesin

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

That said I didn't have Gardaí Siochanna, kick the sh!t out of me when I was 17 - but I know some of those who did! Fact!

I wish that was the worse I knew about happening.

Talliesin

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

As a wiccan I was called polyamorous;

Not sure I'd tie those together, though certainly polyamoury seems more common in the Wiccan community than in the general population (or at least honestly and openly practicing polyamoury does).

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

in its self its a difficult concept, but if anythign was nearer to the corry anxiety of str8 people than bisexuality.

Yes. I think a lot of people assume bisexuals are polyamourous (if they're generous, "sluts" if they aren't).

Myself I don't "believe" in monogamy, and it wasn't part of my wedding vows; my wife and I are monogamous, but it's simply how we live our lives rather than something we profess to be the way things should be done. The funny thing is that just like some people can't understand how one can be attracted to both sexes and keep your dick inside your pants (or whatever you may have in your pants ) similarly people don't seem to understand that one could stay faithful to a partner merely because that was how the two of you had decided to live without the fear of some cosmic retribution or at least having sworn to do so.

Really, is the general population so horny that they not jumping into bed with any takers at every opportunity seems unfeasible?

Boston

Well really if you can't stay faithfull a wedding vow won't make a bloody difference to you. Not every relationship need to be monogamous in the first place.

Boston

Well allot of teenages are "bi-curious" give it ago, see what happens, if things back fire, at least I tired. Sometimes people do it to reafirm that their straight, sometime they do it to reafirm their gay. I tend to but little faith in anything a young adult says about their sexuality. Not saying people arn't gay at 13/14, not saying that people don't know their sexuality at that age either, it just, when your at that age your living in such an artifical world, friends family, school. A hundred people telling you who you should be and what you should do. It can be very very hard to find out the real person.

Sorry if this comes off as being an asshole towards teenagers out there.

memphis

Bit harsh on teens there Boston, but I get your point. I'm 23 and bi-curious, so its not just teens that like to experiment.

A term I prefer to discribe myself is simply that I'm "Sexual", what I mean by that is I'm open to all things sexual, and broad minded, don't judge, or like to be judged, etc.

Boston

I've nothing against being bi-curious, allot of people are, it's fine. Just saying, the person you are when all the artifical crap of your teen years is stripped away is often very different to the person you where back then. If you come out as being Bi when your a teenager, it tends to be what people will always think of you as being, no matter if you decide later on, with abit of experience, that your actually straight. If you spend your teens as a straight person and then realise your not at 18, thats grand, everyone excepts that, but the otherway around it's not that case. It's complicated cuase I've examples of all of the above in my personaly life. people who knew they where bi or gay at 13 and kept quiet for the reaons outlined by To_be_confirmed. People who said they where Bi, didn't really mean it, and would be veyr much so straight now. People (moi) who knew they where straight all through their teens years, only to suddenly start to notice whats around them, and people who came out as bi, like the label for awhile, and now can't shake it.

Dónall

First of all I'd like to say how much I've appreciated reading the more personal stories here, I touched on mine earlier in the thread.

Just a couple of thoughts by way of furthur contribution to the discussion. I've been listening to Liam Neeson talking to Dave Fanning about the new movie Kinsey, I'm sure you all know the Kinsey scale etc Anyway, what's struck me is that despite the fact that the prevalence of bisexuality is one of the scientific pivots of Kinsey's studies they've skirted almost completely around it, implicitly insisting on the existence "three genders": the men, the women and the gays. Such nonsense! Bisexuality is everywhere and yet it makes people so, so very nervous. Very close to the bone I suppose.


One of the driving forces of Lesbian and Gay rights as a human rights issue has been that there is a neat, round figure of 10% of the population who are homesexual, and that they're the people who are involved in same-sex relationships. Some people object to the phrase "gay preference" as it implies choice here, and prefer "gay orientation" as this marks gays and lesbians out as an irrevocably separate group whose human rights are being denied.

I challenge anyone to present any scientific study that shows that a neat 10% of men and women are exclusively homosexual. Even Kinsey found that around 10% of men (fewer women..) were gay at any one time, but that that didn't mean they were entirely gay all their life.

Would the struggle for gay and lesbian rights be endangered if this fact were to be widely accepted? The idea of an immutable 10% has indeed served the cause well. But it doesn't help the considerably larger number of people who are cheerfully somewhere in between the extemes of 1 and 5 on the Kinsey scale.

Most people in Western society seem to be willling to accept the notion of the "three sexes" or "three genders". It is a sort of progress I suppose, but does ultimately amount to an almost Orwellian denial of objective reality.

The German sexologist and early gay rights activists Magnus Hirschfeld ( 1868 -1935) is often considered a pioneer in the field, rightly so in many ways. He developed the theory of a third, "intermediate sex" between men and women. He was brave and tireless in his campaigning and, of course, the Nazis loathed him. The Nazis also (cruel paradox here!) then used his theories as a basis for the genocide against gays, the idea that homosexuals were a separate, in this case degenerate, gender. A wrong gender. So, the idea of a distict third gender certainly didn't serve the cause well here. I know bringing up the Nazi holocaust in any discussion always runs the risk of it turning into a shrill rant, but I only read about this recently and found it interesting.

I believe that there is no such thing as a 10% of the poulation that is an immutable "Third Sex" and that sexuality is a far more interesting and moveable feast than that.

Boston

D&#243 wrote: »

Just a couple of thoughts by way of furthur contribution to the discussion. I've been listening to Liam Neeson talking to Dave Fanning about the new movie Kinsey, I'm sure you all know the Kinsey scale etc Anyway, what's struck me is that despite the fact that the prevalence of bisexuality is one of the scientific pivots of Kinsey's studies they've skirted almost completely around it, implicitly insisting on the existence "three genders": the men, the women and the gays. Such nonsense! Bisexuality is everywhere and yet it makes people so, so very nervous. Very close to the bone I suppose.

Have you seen the film, I wouldn't agree with that take on how the film presented Bi-sexuality. I honestly thought it was allot of light, much more then what was given to homo sexuality.

One of the driving forces of Lesbian and Gay rights as a human rights issue has been that there is a neat, round figure of 10% of the population who are homesexual, and that they're the people who are involved in same-sex relationships. Some people object to the phrase "gay preference" as it implies choice here, and prefer "gay orientation" as this marks gays and lesbians out as an irrevocably separate group whose human rights are being denied.

I challenge anyone to present any scientific study that shows that a neat 10% of men and women are exclusively homosexual. Even Kinsey found that around 10% of men (fewer women..) were gay at any one time, but that that didn't mean they were entirely gay all their life.

1 in 10 men have sexual relations nearlly exclusively with the same sex, in a three year period. That figure drops to 7% for a period greater then three years. Or so thats the criteria for kinsey study, afaik. Personally I find it hard to believe that figure is still accurate in todays world.

fozzle

memphis wrote:

Hi Fozzle,

I had no idea that you were gay or at least gay inclined. I've been confused myself for some years. I've played around in the gay corner, and then gone back to the straight scene only to find myself snog a bloke some months later. The point I'm making is because of societies behaviour and attitudes to gays and lesbians, they can't seem to get there head around the fact that people may go boths ways and are and can be attracted to both sexes. But society find Bisexuality as weird, abnormal, or whatever word you wanna use.

This pi$$es me off only too often. I'm not actually out, but I am open about my sexuality with close friends, and that, however I couldn't bare to tell my family and relatives. Why? Because, in the eyes of society I don't fit into the, as Fozzle puts it, "the Black or White" category, I'm more in the grey area.

Hopes this makes sense, I'm a bit confused by reading through it myself.

Hey memphis, I hadn't a clue about you either (this is how I know Az). It is really difficult when you're unsure allright, (I certainly felt like) you're being judged all the time. people in general need diefinate boundaries, weather for sexuality or anything else, and they see bisexuality and bicuriosity as endangering their tidy little world. I was lucky in that I knew in my heart of hearts that I'm bisexual, even if it took me years to get past the self revulsion, both for being homosexual, and especially for being bi. As a teen I was loud in declaring that bisexuals were only indecisive/looking for attention, opinions that I hate hearing from other people now Of course now I realise that it was because I felt threatened by them, I feared that because a certain number of girls that I knew that used declare they were bi were quite happy to talk about how they'd kiss girls to turn guys on, that if I was bi then I must be attention seeking too (attention being abhorent to me as a teen). The Catholic upbringing didn't help either mind you.

Anyway, sorry all for rambling (again).