Liv v WBA (result)

redspider

Liv 3-0 WBA

I watched the highlights of this match and read the minute-by-minute incidents as reported on skysports.com. Liverpool deserved the win but WBA weren’t much of a challenge. It was easy for Liverpool but there are still a number of interesting observations to take from the game in terms of Liverpool’s development, the current progress of the team, the new players and Benitez.

The first was the formation, which I was disappointed in. It was 4-5-1 - at home! Not exactly an attacking formation. Cisse the only out and out striker was left on his own up front, with support from behind by Garcia. Finnan was played wide right midfield and did quite good, scoring a very good individualistic goal and providing good interplay at times as well as some crosses. Kewell was very quiet for me, in fact too quiet, and there was little play developed on the left hand side, with Riise.

Once again, Gerrard was superb. He created the first goal and scored the first goal, Finnan was involved in the linking play, Garcia (who officially got the assist) gave a 4-yard knock-back to Gerrard, and luckily Gerrard got to the ball, after it seemed that he had lost the flow of the move, gesturing to Cisse to keep back and striking it diagonally with his left foot from 16 yards into the right side of the net.

Finnan’s goal came out of nothing and was brilliantly taken, but only his first goal in 4 years. A hopeful pass from Riise from deep (note, Opta counted it as an assist!) was well taken down in a 50-50 by Finnan, he jinked past another defender and with another two defenders approaching struck a low shot to the near-side of the goal from about 10 yards. A very well taken goal.

Garcia got the third goal but I was disappointed in his play in the game. He made a good run out left (there were subs on at this time, such as Baros), then went the direct route to goal, but instead of making a telling cross he blasted it at the keeper. Luckily the ball rebounded in a way that he was able to follow up with his right foot and score from about 6 yards. There was no assist. During the game earlier, Gerrard got a cross in to him and he missed the target unchallenged on the 7 yard line. Another incident saw him with the ball in a move and he forced the shot from the edge of the box with a waiting and screaming and completely free Stevie G to his left. Although he had a better game than before, he does not look to me like a Maradona.

Cisse doesn’t seem to have good ball control and although he tried he was being driven wide, had little support as the sole striker and most of his chances flew wide and were well covered. The one piece of good news was that Baros supplied him with one good ball which he could have done a bit better with. Baros came on but kept his head down on his runs and was over-selfish. That’s why I think that Benitez should play him for the full 90 mins in a partnership with Cisse. They will only learn to communicate in matches if they are played a lot together.

Hamann had a quiet but stable game. Josemi was non-existent, he did his job in defence. Dudek was untroubled in the back (apart from one cheeky long range shot), and Hyppia and Carragher were safe. Alonso didn’t do anything of note after he came on. Baros was the most effective sub.

Overall, Benitez should play 4-4-2. I still don’t fancy Finnan as a right midfielder, and think he is better at right back. I would drop Josemi. Kewell needs to improve if he wants to keep a place. I think I would make him a sub (don’t start him) and see if that fires him up, but give him 30-mins to 45-mins as a run out. Try Alonso or Garcia in that position. Garcia has a left foot. I have yet to see Nunez to judge. This was an easy game. Harded tests will come soon.

The Muppet

redspider wrote:

Liv 3-0 WBA

Dudek was untroubled in the back (apart from one cheeky long range shot), and Hyppia and Carragher were safe. Alonso didn’t do anything of note after he came on. Baros was the most effective sub.

I Only saw the hightlights myself bet Dudek made more than one save but other than that I would generally agree with your analysis. I have not been impressed with Cisse but it's unfair to judge him after only a handful of games. I was impressed with Garcia he looks like a lively player who will pose a threat to defences. Gerrad was excellent and If liverpool can keep him fit and playing they will be a better team than they were last season.

mike65

Saw highlights too, Garcia spurned two good chances to score but hey at least he made the chances! Last season Pool would have drawn or lost this fixture.

Mike.

Jivin Turkey

Redspider, I think you are being more than a little harsh on Garcia. I dont think anyone is expecting him to be the next Maradona, but he played quite well yesterday. His movement was excellent and while he did miss a few chances he got himself into a lot of positions for someone who wasnt playing as an out and out striker.

As for his goal, "instead of making the telling cross" he nearly put it straight in the back of the net himself. It was a cracking shot and "luckily" for WBA it didnt go in. He was the quickest as well in a crowded box to dispatch the rebound which he deserves credit for.

It was a good result for Liverpool. WBA wont be easy for everybody to turn over.

jesus_thats_gre

Garcia has had two decent games in the premier league this season and it certainly looks like he is going to be a decent buy..

I listened to an interview with the Spanish pundit from Sky Sports and he seems pretty sure that Benitez will play with a 4-4-2 or maybe even a 4-3-3 once the dust settles a bit..

p.pete

I'm happy with 3-0 although I'm sure the performance could have been a lot better and I expect the performances will get better. We have several players playing in the English game for the first time (Garcia, Alonso, Josemi, Cisse and when fit Nunez) who are all expected to hit the ground running.

We've seen the likes of Wenger and AF bring in players successfully recently such as Ronaldo and Reyes, who has deservedly just won player of the month. They are joining teams with stronger squads however and can be afforded the luxury of testing the waters with sub appearances and they've had the whole pre-season to reflect on what they would have learnt last season and com back stronger. We're trying to bed in several players at once and expecting 90 mins out of them.

It may not have been pretty (yet) but I'm happy with 3-0.

Lex Luthor

redspider wrote:

Liv 3-0 WBA
Garcia got the third goal but I was disappointed in his play in the game. He made a good run out left (there were subs on at this time, such as Baros), then went the direct route to goal, but instead of making a telling cross he blasted it at the keeper. Luckily the ball rebounded in a way that he was able to follow up with his right foot and score from about 6 yards..

Garcia had no option but to shoot here. He had a good look up before taking his shot to see if anything was on, but he had no choice to take the shot on.
Main thing, he hit the target, made the keeper work, the ball could have rebounded anywhere which is the main objective. Luckily enough it fell to a Liverpool player and was put away. Too many times we have had players in the same position put a sh!te ball across the box.

midget lord

Before i start going through all this i want to warn people that this will be a rant.

redspider wrote:

Liv 3-0 WBA

I watched the highlights of this match and read the minute-by-minute incidents as reported on skysports.com. Liverpool deserved the win but WBA weren’t much of a challenge. It was easy for Liverpool but there are still a number of interesting observations to take from the game in terms of Liverpool’s development, the current progress of the team, the new players and Benitez.

The first was the formation, which I was disappointed in. It was 4-5-1 - at home! Not exactly an attacking formation. Cisse the only out and out striker was left on his own up front, with support from behind by Garcia. Finnan was played wide right midfield and did quite good, scoring a very good individualistic goal and providing good interplay at times as well as some crosses. Kewell was very quiet for me, in fact too quiet, and there was little play developed on the left hand side, with Riise.

Bull. Deploying a 4-5-1 formation can be attacking depending on the players you have on the pitch. With Garcia and finnan playing out wide, Garcia with a more attacking link role, we were hardly defensively minded. Also SG was playing a more advanced role than normal.

redspider wrote:

Garcia got the third goal but I was disappointed in his play in the game. He made a good run out left (there were subs on at this time, such as Baros), then went the direct route to goal, but instead of making a telling cross he blasted it at the keeper. Luckily the ball rebounded in a way that he was able to follow up with his right foot and score from about 6 yards. There was no assist. During the game earlier, Gerrard got a cross in to him and he missed the target unchallenged on the 7 yard line. Another incident saw him with the ball in a move and he forced the shot from the edge of the box with a waiting and screaming and completely free Stevie G to his left. Although he had a better game than before, he does not look to me like a Maradona.

I had to read this twice, rub my eyes then read it again. He was terribly unlucky with the header but he got into the position, he went for goal when SG was open, i cant blame him for that. He also realised he should have played the ball to SG, his reaction proved this.

redspider wrote:

Cisse doesn’t seem to have good ball control and although he tried he was being driven wide, had little support as the sole striker and most of his chances flew wide and were well covered. The one piece of good news was that Baros supplied him with one good ball which he could have done a bit better with. Baros came on but kept his head down on his runs and was over-selfish. That’s why I think that Benitez should play him for the full 90 mins in a partnership with Cisse. They will only learn to communicate in matches if they are played a lot together.

Cisse's off the ball play is superb and this was evident again over the weekend. Once he settles in he will be a real asset. He is trying to get shots on goal at the moment, but that will pass and he will prove to be a 20+ a season man. Baros needs to lift his head up, this head down style of his is no good in a team, in a 100 metre race maybe, but he has team mates to play it too.

redspider wrote:

Hamann had a quiet but stable game. Josemi was non-existent, he did his job in defence. Dudek was untroubled in the back (apart from one cheeky long range shot), and Hyppia and Carragher were safe. Alonso didn’t do anything of note after he came on. Baros was the most effective sub.

Alonso was superb when he came on, excellent display of passing and a trememdous through ball to Cisse who shot over. Baros was effective but again, he needs to lift his head up. Also Josemi has been great all season. Our wide play will come from our two wide players. His job is to defend and he does this with minimum fuss and plenty of heart.

redspider wrote:

Overall, Benitez should play 4-4-2. I still don’t fancy Finnan as a right midfielder, and think he is better at right back. I would drop Josemi. Kewell needs to improve if he wants to keep a place. I think I would make him a sub (don’t start him) and see if that fires him up, but give him 30-mins to 45-mins as a run out. Try Alonso or Garcia in that position. Garcia has a left foot. I have yet to see Nunez to judge. This was an easy game. Harded tests will come soon.

I enboldend a particular part of the above quote as i think it emphasis how little you actually know about football. Alonso has been the most consistent midfielder in La Liga for three seasons and will prove to be the ideal partner for SG, the mere suggestion of playing him out wide is completely rediculous as he has very little speed, but excellent passing and tackling ability, a born CM. Dropping Josemi - LOL, more bull.

If you have seen valencia over the last few seasons, you will see that rafa's favoured formation is 4-5-1 and that has brought unprecendented success to valencia. Again, if you have someone that can lead the attack like Cisse or Baros, with SG though the middle and Garcia and Kewell out wide you effectively have 4 players attacking, yet 9 players defending. 4-5-1 for me everytime.

Guy:Incognito

I have to say i screamed at the tv a couple of times. Especially when garcia took on the shot instead of laying it off to gerrard. I think peoples attitudes might be different if that chance had come late on in a tight game, say against Man Utd or something and it cost points. Ive only seen him a couple fo times but seem sa bit selfish like Baros.

Actually selfish might be a bit harsh more head-down. Either way both of them ar egoing to need to be more team-orientated.

Shred

After seeing the highlights of the match on Sky I was quite happy with this performance and I saw enough to be optimistic about the future. I thought the overall passing and width of the team was quite good and, as Mike said, this is a fixture Liverpool would have struggled to win last season. The only thing that bothered me was Baros's selfishness, Benitez needs to sort this out a.s.a.p. as he really got up my nose a couple of times during this and the other games so far this season.

There's room for improvement but they're on the right track.

redspider

midget lord wrote:

Deploying a 4-5-1 formation can be attacking depending on the players you have on the pitch. With Garcia and finnan playing out wide, Garcia with a more attacking link role, we were hardly defensively minded. Also SG was playing a more advanced role than normal.

4-4-2 is more attacking, lets say with Baros replacing Finnan. WBA were nothing to shout about and flattered Liverpool’s play and return. On several occasions, Cisse as the lone forward went out wide to collect the ball, laid it off to Gerrard who crossed into Garcia and with Finnan also up there. Believe me when I say that these two players are NOT Liverpool’s attack force. Gerrard played in his usual position but got a bit more freedom due to WBA being poor at picking up, as well as Garcia floating around. It was Gerrard that was the driving force of Liverpool, not Garcia.

I had to read this twice, rub my eyes then read it again. He (Garcia) was terribly unlucky with the header but he got into the position, he went for goal when SG was open, i cant blame him for that. He also realised he should have played the ball to SG, his reaction proved this.

I think you should have looked at the header again and stopped rubbing your eyes. He was unchallenged from 6.5 yards and missed the target by 4 yards. It was a woeful header. But I am not anti-Garcia. I agree he got into the position in the first place. Perhaps still settling in he is nervous and snatching at things, perhaps too impetuous to be successful, etc. But this miss was woeful, it was not terribly unlucky at all. Watch it again. The over-selfish play is sign of a player that is lacking some vision, again, this was poor play – the excuse, if he has one, is that he was selfish for success and again its early days for him. Ok, if its just a once-off and he learns.

Cisse's off the ball play is superb and this was evident again over the weekend. Once he settles in he will be a real asset. He is trying to get shots on goal at the moment, but that will pass and he will prove to be a 20+ a season man. Baros needs to lift his head up, this head down style of his is no good in a team, in a 100 metre race maybe, but he has team mates to play it too.

Cisse hasn’t so far been able to create loads of space for himself. I think he has had the match play to settle in, was that his 9th game for Liverpool including friendlies? I don’t think he can use the “new boy” excuse anymore. I do think that Benitez’s chopping and changing of formation doesn’t help him though. However, I don’t see any evidence of him being a 20+ goal player so far. His shots are too wayward and his control not good enough. He does have power in his shots but he needs better direction. I can wait a few more games to judge his scoring rate but at the moment its not looking like 20+. We agree on Baros.

Josemi has been great all season. Our wide play will come from our two wide players. His job is to defend and he does this with minimum fuss and plenty of heart.

I don’t think any top premiership side (going for a CL position) can afford not to have their full-backs contributing wide at times up front. Finnan does it better than Riise. Riise has great pace but lacks good ball control. He needs loads of space. Josemi has not to date contributed well up front. Midget, I think you are in the minority among managers that would want Josemi to defend only.

Alonso was superb when he came on, excellent display of passing and a trememdous through ball to Cisse who shot over. I enboldend a particular part of the above quote as i think it emphasis how little you actually know about football. Alonso has been the most consistent midfielder in La Liga for three seasons and will prove to be the ideal partner for SG, the mere suggestion of playing him out wide is completely rediculous as he has very little speed, but excellent passing and tackling ability, a born CM. Dropping Josemi - LOL, more bull.

I agree that Alonso is a good passer but midfield is where I have difficulty with Benitez. What to do with Stevie G, Alonso, Hamman and Garcia in the same midfield? It has been discussed on other threads but it should be the general consensus that it is best when Stevie G is the most forward placed central midfielder. He needs a holding player who sticks his foot in (and out) and that job is well served by Hamman. Alonso is a passing player and wants to go back to get it and make telling passes but doesn't want to go back and defend. If anything his style of play overlaps with what Stevie G does best. Garcia looks as if he wants to have a pop at goal every now and again and so also wants to play in the centre, behind the forwards in the hole as its called. So, if all of these players bests positions are in central midfield, what is Benitez doing? In a way, he played 4-5-1 last week to accommodate Garcia, and obviously not to accommodate Baros. But if Baros and Cisse want to develop and play well together, they need playing time.

You say that Alonso will prove to be the ideal partner for Gerrard. So where exactly will you play him and who in midfield will be responsible for defensive duties, the holding player?

The reason behind dropping Josemi is that I contend that Finnan is a better right back than he is. I have not seen any evidence to say otherwise. Do you think Josemi is better than Finnan?

If you have seen valencia over the last few seasons, you will see that rafa's favoured formation is 4-5-1 and that has brought unprecendented success to valencia. Again, if you have someone that can lead the attack like Cisse or Baros, with SG though the middle and Garcia and Kewell out wide you effectively have 4 players attacking, yet 9 players defending. 4-5-1 for me everytime.

I don’t know if Valencia played 4-5-1 in all games. That would be surprising to me. All formations are fluid, they are not static. When you have the ball you have 11 players attacking, when you don’t you have 11 players defending (or should have!). If as you describe you have 4 up front, and then the opposition get the ball and knock it forward, you can only have 7 back. Its physically impossible to have players in two places at once, although fast players like Stevie G can get forward and back quickly. I didn’t see much evidence of Garcia getting back. 4-5-1 for you perhaps, and maybe Greece, but for the likes of the current Arsenal, Brazil, Madrid and hopefully a Liverpool, it’s a 4-4-2 that’s most effective.

I guess the general thrust of my original posting which I wanted to get across to the board is that the viewpoint on Garcia needs to be balanced. On Liverpoolfc.tv polls and in newspaper reports it was coming across that he was the man of the match. Firstly, this was WBA, our easiest match of the season (and I don’t agree with Mike65 that Liverpool would have lost or drew this match last season) so Liverpool should do well, but people seemed to be judging Garcia through rose coloured glasses and giving him way too much benefit of the doubt. He’s still new, I’ll give him a few more games to “settle”, but so far its nothing to write home about and no major change for Liverpool this season. 4th all the way (unless 3rd due to a Man U disaster!).

DapperGent

redspider wrote:

I don’t know if Valencia played 4-5-1 in all games. That would be surprising to me. All formations are fluid, they are not static. When you have the ball you have 11 players attacking, when you don’t you have 11 players defending (or should have!). If as you describe you have 4 up front, and then the opposition get the ball and knock it forward, you can only have 7 back. Its physically impossible to have players in two places at once, although fast players like Stevie G can get forward and back quickly. I didn’t see much evidence of Garcia getting back. 4-5-1 for you perhaps, and maybe Greece, but for the likes of the current Arsenal, Brazil, Madrid and hopefully a Liverpool, it’s a 4-4-2 that’s most effective.

I think you're a bit fixated on 4-4-2 as a way to play football. I would certainly submit that neither Arsenal, Real Madrid nor Brazil play a 4-4-2 in the classic sense. The fludity of the way all play football is far more akin to what Benitez did at Valencia and the way he's clearly going about business with Liverpool. Taking a look at Arsenal against Fulham for example the way they went about things is a lot closer to a 4-5-1 than say the way Aston Villa play at the moment.

They had two generally defensively minded players in Viera and Gilberto, with Berkamp, Pires (later Reyes) and Ljungberg (all with a licence to roam) just ahead of them and Henry as the only totally forward commited player but one who heads roams left or right (generally left) letting the other three "forward" players occupy central positions. The reason Arsenal are great (IMO), besides the quality of their players of course, is that their formation allows near perfect balance between defence and attack. Defending they seem to have a packed choking midfield but attacking and on the counter attack they seem to have 4 forwards, slightly withdrawn options left, right and centre and a striker beyond them who could be anywhere.

This is exactly the type of balance a 4-5-1 formation is designed to create and it's exactly the type of thing that Benitez created at Valencia, who did in fact play 4-5-1 most of the time. The classic Valencia spread that I remember (I didn't get to see much Spanish football last season) was kinda like this:

---

Carew

Vicente

---

Aimar

---

Rufete

---

?

---

Baraja

From the look of Benitez's transfer dealings he's looking to give Liverpool the same sort of shape. Essentially one main striker who's quick and burly enough with two attacking wide players, a creative player in the hole and two solid midfielders who know a thing or two about attacking when the time comes. I'd (personally) say with the players he's brought in his planned Liverpool formation would look something like:

---

Cisse

Kewell

---

Garcia

---

Nunez

---

Alonso

---

Gerrard

While it may look like an old school defensive 4-5-1 in reality it's nothing of the sort ie nothing like the formation and tactics Ireland put out during the 1994 World Cup. Personally I think it's a fantastic formation and is near identical to what Alex Ferguson has been trying (and mostly failing) to put in place with Man U for the past couple of season. It allows for your central midfield to have maximum options - creative attacking players left, right and centre and a striker beyond them for a through ball or one over the top. Interestingly enough it's the sort of formation that Michael Owen wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of fitting into properly. It also has the advantage of being able to quickly turn attack into defense and defense into attack which in a lot of ways is what makes a successful football team.

A 4-4-2 is grand if you have limited resources and a job to do (a la Villa or Southampton or most Div 1 teams) but when you're trying to take a step towards winning a league or having good success in Europe, it's like, sooo 1999. To be honest I think Benitez is going about things the right way, Liverpool are lucky to have him.

kida

midget lord wrote:

Cisse's off the ball play is superb and this was evident again over the weekend.

Lol - so was Forlans and Heskeys.

midget lord

I didnt even read your reply redspider.

Kida: Do you think cisse will be another heskey or forlan?

p.pete

The way I look at Cisse is that he's about 10mil cheaper then Drogba for Chelsea, both coming from the same league. In that league Cisse proved himself for a longer period of time and scored more goals then Drogba.

I don't want to judge either player yet but I will be interested to see by the end of the season which player has more goals / assists.

kida

ho could be - was merely pointing out that you can have alll the movement you want as a striker but you will be judged on goals.

midget lord

and a good point too.

The difference with Cisse is that he is a proven goal scorer and shouldn't fall by the wayside. My point was that even from this early stage he is getting into the positions. Once he gets over the initial adreneline of playing for a new club im sure he will really settle in. Hopefully then we able to judge him on his goals.

midget lord

unbelieveable.

I got neg rep off someone for disagreeing with redspiders opinion. They said in the rep that they werent red spider!!!

How f'in childish. Whoever it was obviously posts in this forum so if you have something to say about any of my posts say it on the boards instead of taking the childish way out of it.

uberwolf

someone did say something about your post and you didn't read it.

btw, this isn't a continuation of past 'chat' we've had, just a seperate observation.

Dappergent, great post, I reckon my CM4 tactics will be reviewed as a result
Ur right though, just about every formation relies on the players in those positions. Finnan on the right wing will be less attacking then Nunez when he decides to play.

midget lord

I can appreciate this isnt a continuation uber


I didnt read it because i dont believe he has anything worth while to say.

PiE

You probably got the neg rep for being an ignorant dick and saying:

I didnt even read your reply redspider.

Personally I was pleased with the win; nothing outstanding (apart from Gerrard of course) but at least it was a solid victory and a clean sheet.

jesus_thats_gre

---

Cisse

---

Kewell

---

Gerard

---

Garcia

---

Alonso

---

Hamann

---

Riise---Hypia---Carragher---Josemi

---

Dudek

---

This is how I imagine the team will be if he stick with 4-5-1 formation. Nunez wont feature in the first team straight away I don't think, he will be introduced slowly..


Eventually it may become:

---

Baros----Cisse

---

Kewell---Gerard---Alonso---Garcia
Riise---Hypia---Carragher---Josemi

---

Dudek

---

OR

----Baros----Cisse----Garcia

---

----Kewell---Gerard---Alonso

---

Riise---Hypia---Carragher---Josemi

---

Dudek

---

jesus_thats_gre

Can someone not develop a flash blackboard or something or make something similar to the tactics screen in CM.. Would be deady

The Muppet

midget lord wrote:

unbelieveable.

I got neg rep off someone for disagreeing with redspiders opinion. They said in the rep that they werent red spider!!!

How f'in childish. Whoever it was obviously posts in this forum so if you have something to say about any of my posts say it on the boards instead of taking the childish way out of it.

I gave you negative rep because of your comment about not reading red spiders posts. There was no need to be as ignorant as you were to him. I generally don't agree with red spider but he is entitled to his opinion and IMO is one of the more interesting members here. Interestingly I notice Bannor does not post as much as he used to after similar treatment.

redspider

DapperGent wrote:

I think you're a bit fixated on 4-4-2 as a way to play football. I would certainly submit that neither Arsenal, Real Madrid nor Brazil play a 4-4-2 in the classic sense. The fludity of the way all play football is far more akin to what Benitez did at Valencia and the way he's clearly going about business with Liverpool. Taking a look at Arsenal against Fulham for example the way they went about things is a lot closer to a 4-5-1 than say the way Aston Villa play at the moment.

Well, I didn’t say anything about a classic 4-4-2 which has static rows across. I agree with you totally about fluidity in formations and mentioned it. The terms used for formations such as 4-4-2 and 4-5-1 are over-simplifications and not all 4-4-2’s nor 4-5-1’s are the same. Its just a way of trying to describe a formation. If anything in simplistic terms it defines the type of players used. You can have just as fluid a 4-4-2 as with a 4-5-1. One key difference is that with 4-4-2 there are 2 natural strikers/finishers.

At Arsenal, if they play with Henry, Reyes and Bergkamp, is that 2 natural strikers and Bergkamp playing in the hole. It cant really be considered 4-5-1, as there is no-one that really stays up and plays the target man.

This is exactly the type of balance a 4-5-1 formation is designed to create and it's exactly the type of thing that Benitez created at Valencia, who did in fact play 4-5-1 most of the time. The classic Valencia spread that I remember (I didn't get to see much Spanish football last season) was kinda like this:

---

Carew

Vicente

---

Aimar

---

Rufete

---

?

---

Baraja

Well, yes and no. It all depends how you define Aimar. Is he a midfielder or a forward? Is he more like a Scholes or more like a Kewell or more like a Baros playing off a big target player like Carew. Is he a natural striker playing back a bit? Wasnt Vicente a forward before?

You could say that in football, that there is actually another layer as you describe. With the Liverpool 4-4-2 system played last year, it utilised the diamond formation, so something like

---

G

---

CB – CB
RB

---

LB

---

CM

---

RM

---

CM

---

LM
---- F

---

F ---

That’s a 4-4-2 but its also a 4-1-3-2

From the look of Benitez's transfer dealings he's looking to give Liverpool the same sort of shape. Essentially one main striker who's quick and burly enough with two attacking wide players, a creative player in the hole and two solid midfielders who know a thing or two about attacking when the time comes. I'd (personally) say with the players he's brought in his planned Liverpool formation would look something like:

---

Cisse

Kewell

---

Garcia

---

Nunez

---

Alonso

---

Gerrard

While it may look like an old school defensive 4-5-1 in reality it's nothing of the sort ie nothing like the formation and tactics Ireland put out during the 1994 World Cup.

Yes, I agree its not like a flat 5x midfield and the Kewell Garcia Nunez level is an attacking level. I also think that this type of 4-5-1 (4-2-3-1) formation may be what Benitez is aiming for. It is very popular in Spain. But the problem I have with this and probably what Benitez has is that Gerrard is Liverpool’s best player, and in this role he wont play as well as he could. That formation suits Kewell and Garcia, I don’t know enough about Nunez.

Cisse can act as the front man ala Carew, but wouldn’t Heskey have nearly been just as good in that type of role. It also leaves Liverpool more vulnerable in the back, Hamman is a better holding defender than Gerrard (who can be impetuous) and Alonso from what I’ve seen from him, and Hyppia and Carragher could be exposed. I also think that with that 4-2-3-1 type of formation that it wont create as many scoring opportunities as a 4-1-3-2. It also doesn't utilise Baros at all!

Personally I think it's a fantastic formation and is near identical to what Alex Ferguson has been trying (and mostly failing) to put in place with Man U for the past couple of season. It allows for your central midfield to have maximum options - creative attacking players left, right and centre and a striker beyond them for a through ball or one over the top. Interestingly enough it's the sort of formation that Michael Owen wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of fitting into properly.

Well, one problem is there is no central midfielder! Gerrard will want the ball and he should get it, Alonso will also want the ball. There is a sort of triangle in the centre of the park with Garcia, Alonso and Gerrard. I think that Gerrard wont be happy with this formation. Garcia gets the easiest role.

Yes, you are right that it wouldn’t suit Owen, as Larssen is finding out in Barcelona.

Football is difficult to describe by numbers. Bring on the graphics I say.

midget lord wrote:

(mumble, mumble)

ok so, if you are unable to continue to discuss, give up. Thats fine by me.

"You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink".

p.pete

It's nice to describe a triangle in the centre of the park but 2 of the players you are describing for that triangle are only newly arrived. I'm surprised that you know so much about them already from the brief glimpses that we've seen to be able to perscribe the positions that they will be taking in the long term.

Gerrard is fantastic going forward and some people would like to see him playing a more forward role - I still see him going forward but his natural position will be to be in the centre of the park. I know Alonso is central too but I think it's too early to start slotting him into positions and making presumptions about how and where he'll play.

I'm pretty sure Garcia will be used in a forward role as opposed to the right or left where he is capable of playing. With him on the pitch I'd be more inclined to call it 442 then 451 although he wouldn't actually be playing as a second striker. Benitez has had him as a player before and afaik he was in an attacking role - either way, he'll know better how to use him then I.

redspider

I dont know if any of you saw the Celtic - Barcelona match last night and Toshacks observations but it was very interesting from a tactical point of view. Celtic were playing 4 in defence and Barcelona had 3 "in midfield" and 3 "in attack", on paper.

But in practice, the front 6 players were completly fluid, Etoo, Giuly, Ronadinho, Deco, etc. So fluid that they were able to tear Celtic apart with just two players at times with good passes and they were dragging the defenders and midfield all over the place.

Their style caused Toshack to comment, thats not 4-5-1 (as in the 4-2-3-1 which we have been talking about), they aren't playing with any out and out forward.

Also, everything was going down the right side - there was no-one playing on the left. So their attack was not uniform but was lop-sided. So, was that a 4-6-0 we saw last night by the Catalans?

Its just an example of how dfficult it is to describe a football style, tactics and formation with just 3 simple numbers. Xmas tree, diamonds, wing backs, in the hole, midfield runners (ala Ljungberg) , etc, are all attempts at describing play.

Soundings are that Benitez will stick with a 4-5-1 formation for this evenings CL match.

midget lord

Guys, i was purposely ignorant to red spider yesterday. I have deduced from the rest of his posts that he is a liverpool supporter, yet he doesnt know what hes talking about. Before i say anything i generally like to research what i am about to (on the footie forum) yet he waffles about his personal opinion on particular signings, i dont agree with him and point out where i dont agree. Thats all i want to say about it or hear about it, so i wont read his reply as his initial post is enough for me to form an opinion. Hopefully he will prove me wrong.

Originally posted by The Muppet
I gave you negative rep because of your comment about not reading red spiders posts.

at least you admited to it, fair play.

jesus_thats_gre

I would understand you ignoring his posts if he was talking completely out of his arse like Smemon or Pornapster used too. But his posts are reasonable enough and some are not far off the mark at all.